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Topic: Oops - 20BTC fee paid on .05 transaction? - page 2. (Read 6323 times)

legendary
Activity: 4228
Merit: 1313
December 16, 2013, 02:51:47 PM
#52
There must be some way to develop a system where this type of thing won't be allowed to happen.  It's things like this that hurt the credibility of BTC in the public's eyes - I mean what if that happened when BTC is way more popular, years from now, I could see that Yahoo headline story now Smiley

A lot of wallets would flag this, but from what I read, the person was using a particular web site (http://brainwallet.org) which lets you create raw transactions.  He apparently wasn't paying attention to what he was doing and screwed up.  If he had imported his keys to the reference client, blockchain.info, electrum, Armory, Multibit etc, they would have flagged it. 

We don't have to prevent someone using a blowtorch to light a candle and setting the house on fire, if you don't know what you are doing, you use the appropriate tool.  The simple answer, is use a match. 

I feel bad for this guy, but it isn't a bitcoin protocol problem.  The tools are there, you just have to use them properly. 

I wouldn't use something allowing a raw transaction unless I was on the test net.
legendary
Activity: 1750
Merit: 1007
December 16, 2013, 12:23:45 PM
#51
Actually last time Asicminer did return the 200 BTC tx fee. I think most reputable miners will return the fee, but this time unfortunately the block is mined by the P2PPool and this makes things much more complicated.

A lot of pools (BTC Guild, Slush, ASICMINER, Ozcoin, Eligius) have returned massive fee errors in the past.  But...now all those pools pay txfees to the miners except for ASICMINER (since they're not a pool, just a huge solo miner).  So it's time to start being more careful with raw transactions, since the pools are no longer keeping txfees, meaning expecting them to return these amounts will either require them to claw it back from miners (which will hurt their business as a result) or pay it from their own pocket for someone else's mistake.
full member
Activity: 224
Merit: 104
December 16, 2013, 11:45:57 AM
#50
There must be some way to develop a system where this type of thing won't be allowed to happen.  It's things like this that hurt the credibility of BTC in the public's eyes - I mean what if that happened when BTC is way more popular, years from now, I could see that Yahoo headline story now Smiley
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 500
It's all fun and games until somebody loses an eye
December 16, 2013, 11:37:30 AM
#49
Some people are just not up to the challenge of handling their money responsibly.  Undecided

Funny how we are split between sympathy and .... whatever the opposite of sympathy is.

People need to learn how to treat their bitcoins with respect. Clicking is a lot easier than handling real cash. Its not like anyone ever went into a restaurant, paid for a $10 meal, and left a $3000 tip.


Actually, ... I remember hearing once of a waitress who was left a huge tip by a generous couple so she could afford to go to school (I don't remember the exact detail).
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
December 16, 2013, 11:25:35 AM
#48
These websites really should not be exposing the technical innards of bitcoin to random people.  Also, "brainwallets" should die in a fire.

This it is the equivalent of your bank allowing you to construct a wire transfer packet manually and then someone getting surpised that instead of wiring $1,000 to grandma they wired $10,000 to some unknown account in a bank in the Caymans.
sdp
sr. member
Activity: 469
Merit: 281
December 16, 2013, 11:16:15 AM
#47
Mining could be more profitable thanks to brainwallet.
member
Activity: 84
Merit: 10
December 16, 2013, 10:55:52 AM
#46
I once waited 2 HOURS for a transaction of 1 satoshi even though i paid a fee of like 1 mBTC  Shocked
hero member
Activity: 658
Merit: 500
Small Red and Bad
December 16, 2013, 07:58:37 AM
#45
Poor guy, they should start making some fool proof wallets.  Roll Eyes
global moderator
Activity: 3990
Merit: 2717
Join the world-leading crypto sportsbook NOW!
December 16, 2013, 06:22:57 AM
#44

Can't wait to see grandma start using bitcoins. Oops, there goes 500 grand.


Just don't let Grandma use Brainwallet  Cheesy.
sr. member
Activity: 302
Merit: 250
December 16, 2013, 06:05:14 AM
#43
The good news is, his transaction must have been confirmed by the network really fast! The bad news is, bitcoin is still a long ways from becoming an acceptable currency for the mainstream, given that horrific errors like this can occur.

This posts sums it up nicely:

Quote
Can't wait to see grandma start using bitcoins. Oops, there goes 500 grand.


Yes, let's blame the entire Bitcoin infrastructure on one person's stupid mistake with raw transactions.

People have been losing their lives, daily, to automobile accidents since the automobile was invented. Not money, their lives!

Yet, we don't go around saying "automobiles are not an acceptable means of transportation for the mainstream, given that horrific errors like this can occur," do we?

"Can't wait to see grandma start driving a car. Oops, there goes grandma's life along with the family of 5 she crashed into."

Humans are going to make huge, sometimes life threatening, errors regardless of the tool you give them. It's up to the individual to educate and protect themselves. Even so, accidents will occur.

I've never heard of anyone making such a fee mistake unless they were messing with raw transactions to being with.

It's simple to call it an idiot mistake from atop your ivory tower, but if a bitcoin "enthusiast" (we are still in the early adopter phase, afterall) can manage a colossal fuck up on the scale of blowing $20,000 USD worth of bitcoin, then there is a problem with the bitcoin ecosystem. There is no equivalent to this in real life. You would never accidentally leave a $20k tip at a restaurant, or accidentally overpay $20k for your Starbucks frappacino.

Your car analogy is flawed. This is why: we have been using cash and credit cards for years, each have provided great utility to consumers. Like I said above, there is essentially no room for massive fuck ups, and even if your money is stolen somehow, you typically have recourse.

It would be like if supercharged motorbikes from the present were suddenly introduced to denizens of the world of a distant future Earth, where all cars traveled at 200 mph and were automated so that accidents were a thing of the distant past.

Now you give them these bikes which can be crashed, and the people, without adequate knowledge or proper concern for their personal safety and that of others are cut loose. Of course they'll have accidents, and for what point, ultimately?

If you guys want bitcoin to succeed, it will need to be idiot proofed. Nobody is going to convert their cash to a protocol that allows them and their friends to potentially lose their life savings to some momentary lapse of judgement!


You have no idea if this person is a "bitcoin enthusiast". You have just made a baseless assumption because you believe us to be in the "early adopter" phase. The two things wouldn't necessarily be linked even if they were both true.

Many people have accidentally lost money if they try to transmit it themselves. If I opted to withdraw my funds as cash, and walk them to China, I would probably lose them. Whereas if I had just used the nice software my bank provided I might not (have such a high chance of) losing them.

As many people have pointed out, unfortunately, this person was not using any good wallet software. This would be similar to me trusting a new nigerian payment processor as my bank - not a great idea.

Brainwallet is lambasted constantly by anybody reasonably knowledgable because human beings CANNOT CHOOSE RANDOM PASSPHRASES. The number of people who have lost their funds due to brainwallets being hacked is huge. But people will not search google and will not perform due dilligence with their own money, which, yes, is something you (currently) have to do to use bitcoin safely.

Now I know that this person's brainwallet was not hacked, but he obviously did not research properly bitcoin protocol and security as if he had he would not be using one. Would YOU really send $20,000 to a string of numbers you had just printed from a random webpage you found on the internet without knowing much about it.

The bitcoin PROTOCOL does not need to be idiot-proofed. There should be no idiots reading/using that. That (unfortunately) was the issue here. Services (for example wallets) have and will continue to be built on top of the protocol to facilitate end-users' safety.

That said, I do feel terrible for this guy/gal's loss. That is a serious amount of money, and after seeing ASICMiner step up and return some previous errors of this size it is a massive shame that P2Pool mined that block. Hopefully some people on freenode will return some funds if he signs a message or something.

/rant
copper member
Activity: 3948
Merit: 2201
Verified awesomeness ✔
December 16, 2013, 05:05:41 AM
#42
This is a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand Bitcoin enough to work with it. I he learned something from this.
sr. member
Activity: 434
Merit: 251
December 16, 2013, 04:59:48 AM
#41
uhhh i feel bad for this kid, hope he has enough left. That was nearly a 18k move.....  and lost them all 
legendary
Activity: 3766
Merit: 1217
December 16, 2013, 02:51:58 AM
#40
When you spend from a brainwallet, you must spend ALL your funds. The difference goes into the fee.

Too bad for him.... 20 BTC is 18,000 USD at today's rate. 
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
December 16, 2013, 02:27:41 AM
#39
This will give some Bitcoin haters enough material to start ranting about how imperfect the system this.
But hopefully it will also educate some people on how to use it , and to double check what they do if unsure of it.
It's not the system but his choice of wallet.
Ido feel sorry for him and his lost.
20 coins to may 100s be on their way to him.
and to me too Smiley  Tongue
member
Activity: 70
Merit: 10
December 16, 2013, 02:16:48 AM
#38
This will give some Bitcoin haters enough material to start ranting about how imperfect the system this.
But hopefully it will also educate some people on how to use it , and to double check what they do if unsure of it.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
December 16, 2013, 01:54:50 AM
#37
Huh?
Only 20?
i this its a mistake
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
December 16, 2013, 01:49:38 AM
#36
These websites really should not be exposing the technical innards of bitcoin to random people.  Also, "brainwallets" should die in a fire.

And as a lesson to everyone watching, always run your raw transactions through a decoder before you sign it.  Hopefully one smart enough to look up the inputs and warn you if you are about to make a huge mistake.
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
December 16, 2013, 01:43:25 AM
#35
I have to say it again. This has nothing to do with bitcoin, and it's just the issue of brainwallet.org. It should make it very clear that the transaction page is just used to manually create a raw transaction that move all BTC from one offline address to another offline address. It should not be used for other usages at all.

That's correct, but it's not unthinkable that sometime in the future, nodes could invalidate obviously erroneous transactions (like 20btc fees or unspendable outputs for example).

Extensive error controls exist in all other financial transaction systems. No properly architected commercial system would ever pass through things like this.

20 BTC fees maybe, but unspendable outputs no. How can the mining nodes know which output is unspendable?

Even for the 20 BTC fee, I still think the restriction should be done in the client side. The mining node has no reason to forbid people to pay 20BTC fees, and maybe the user just want to ensure the transaction to be included in a block as soon as possible.

It's like if we leave $1000 in the table of a restaurant, any reasonable waiter will warn us, but he will accept as the tip it if you insist. There's no reason to establish a law to forbid any tip larger than $100.

Sure we don't need a law. but if someone mistakenly tipped you $1000 at a restaurant, would you give it back? Maybe not ........ but then a restaurant isn't risking the whole reputation of what we hope is a major world currency.
Actually last time Asicminer did return the 200 BTC tx fee. I think most reputable miners will return the fee, but this time unfortunately the block is mined by the P2PPool and this makes things much more complicated.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 500
December 16, 2013, 01:37:11 AM
#34
I have to say it again. This has nothing to do with bitcoin, and it's just the issue of brainwallet.org. It should make it very clear that the transaction page is just used to manually create a raw transaction that move all BTC from one offline address to another offline address. It should not be used for other usages at all.

That's correct, but it's not unthinkable that sometime in the future, nodes could invalidate obviously erroneous transactions (like 20btc fees or unspendable outputs for example).

Extensive error controls exist in all other financial transaction systems. No properly architected commercial system would ever pass through things like this.

20 BTC fees maybe, but unspendable outputs no. How can the mining nodes know which output is unspendable?

Even for the 20 BTC fee, I still think the restriction should be done in the client side. The mining node has no reason to forbid people to pay 20BTC fees, and maybe the user just want to ensure the transaction to be included in a block as soon as possible.

It's like if we leave $1000 in the table of a restaurant, any reasonable waiter will warn us, but he will accept as the tip it if you insist. There's no reason to establish a law to forbid any tip larger than $100.

Sure we don't need a law. but if someone mistakenly tipped you $1000 at a restaurant, would you give it back? Maybe not ........ but then a restaurant isn't risking the whole reputation of what we hope is a major world currency.
legendary
Activity: 882
Merit: 1000
December 16, 2013, 01:22:55 AM
#33
I have to say it again. This has nothing to do with bitcoin, and it's just the issue of brainwallet.org. It should make it very clear that the transaction page is just used to manually create a raw transaction that move all BTC from one offline address to another offline address. It should not be used for other usages at all.

That's correct, but it's not unthinkable that sometime in the future, nodes could invalidate obviously erroneous transactions (like 20btc fees or unspendable outputs for example).

Extensive error controls exist in all other financial transaction systems. No properly architected commercial system would ever pass through things like this.

20 BTC fees maybe, but unspendable outputs no. How can the mining nodes know which output is unspendable?

Even for the 20 BTC fee, I still think the restriction should be done in the client side. The mining node has no reason to forbid people to pay 20BTC fees, and maybe the user just want to ensure the transaction to be included in a block as soon as possible.

It's like if we leave $1000 in the table of a restaurant, any reasonable waiter will warn us, but he will accept as the tip it if you insist. There's no reason to establish a law to forbid any tip larger than $100.
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