Open Letter to GMaxwell and Sincere Rational Core Devs - page 22.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 06, 2017, 12:51:23 AM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 06, 2017, 12:45:42 AM

(6) "Ideal money" is the end result of the competition. (?)
(7) "Ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "Ideal gold" (?)
---
Check 6 and 7, do you agree? If so, explain the "Ideal gold" more since I
do not think you have explain in depth prior.

yes to 6.
There is no need for 7.

Ok good, so below is the theory simplified so that certain sections
could be referenced for discussion.

Quote from: The Bitcoin & Ideal Money Theory Simplified

So, if bitcoin maintains current gold like properties,
including not increasing the TPS whether on-chain or off-chains, then:
(1) bitcoin will increase in value.
(2) bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value.
(3) bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money".
(4) "other alternatives" existence is to force fiat to compete in value.
(5) "other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money".
(6) "Ideal money" is the end result of the competition.

So my last question will be, what happens to the "other alternatives" after many years of
"Ideal Money" being successful? Will they still need to exists as a counter to that system,
or do they become obsolete?

traincarswreck

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Quote from: BurtW on March 06, 2017, 12:53:04 AM

One last question to maybe get me back on track: Is Bitcoin the metric of value?

No, we are looking for a stable metric of value. what good is an instable metric of value? If you are going to measure something with a measuring stick, and the measuring stick changes length at an unpredictable rate, what good is the measuring stick?

BurtW

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 06, 2017, 12:49:08 AM

Quote from: BurtW on March 06, 2017, 12:42:45 AM

My take away from these two statements plus the entire premise of this thread is the following:

1. If we do not change Bitcoin it is not and will never be stable but it will be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value, but

2. If we do change Bitcoin it is still not and will still never be stable and it will not be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value?

Is that what you are saying?

I thought I was understanding until this last couple of pages.

Yes what is not consistent here?

One last question to maybe get me back on track: Is Bitcoin the metric of value?

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 06, 2017, 12:45:42 AM

(6) "Ideal money" is the end result of the competition. (?)
(7) "Ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "Ideal gold" (?)

---

Check 6 and 7, do you agree? If so, explain the "Ideal gold" more since I
do not think you have explain in depth prior.

yes to 6.

There is no need for 7.

traincarswreck

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Activity: 532

Merit: 251

Quote from: BurtW on March 06, 2017, 12:42:45 AM

My take away from these two statements plus the entire premise of this thread is the following:

1. If we do not change Bitcoin it is not and will never be stable but it will be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value, but

2. If we do change Bitcoin it is still not and will still never be stable and it will not be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value?

Is that what you are saying?

I thought I was understanding until this last couple of pages.

Yes what is not consistent here?

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 06, 2017, 12:31:42 AM

Scratch that, I mean to say bitcoin's existence is to force fiat to compete in value.

OK that makes sense with prior statements then.
but lets change "bitcoin's existence" with "other alternative" for clarity.

---

So, if bitcoin maintains current gold like properties, including not increasing
the TPS whether on-chain or off-chains, then:

(1) bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
(2) bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (YES)
(3) bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)

(4) "other alternatives" existence is to force fiat to compete in value. (YES)
(5) "other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (YES)

(6) "Ideal money" is the end result of the competition. (?)
(7) "Ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "Ideal gold" (?)

---

Check 6 and 7, do you agree? If so, explain the "Ideal gold" more since I
do not think you have explain in depth prior.

BurtW

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All paid signature campaigns should be banned.

Now I am lost.

Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 11:26:46 PM

Bitcoin is expected to be, if we don't change it, FAIRLY stable in value

Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 11:26:46 PM

Bitcoin ISN'T FUCKING STABLE!!!!

My take away from these two statements plus the entire premise of this thread is the following:

1. If we do not change Bitcoin it is not and will never be stable but it will be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value, but

2. If we do change Bitcoin it is still not and will still never be stable and it will not be stable enough for the desired purpose of creating a real absolute (enough) metric of value?

Is that what you are saying?

I thought I was understanding until this last couple of pages.

traincarswreck

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Activity: 532

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Scratch that, I mean to say bitcoin's existence is to force fiat to compete in value.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 11:59:54 PM

...
bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (YES)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (YES)

"ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "ideal gold" (?)
"bitcoin's only existence is to compete with the "other alternative". (?)
...
fyp

That doesn't make sense now. Point 2 now contradicts Point 6.
"bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value." can
not be true if "bitcoin's only existence is to compete with
the "other alternative".

Do you mean this?
"bitcoin's only existence is to compete ~~with~~ as the "other alternative".?

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 11:48:51 PM

Lol, Ok.
So

bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (YES)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (YES)

"ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "ideal gold" (?)
"bitcoin's only existence is to compete with the "other alternative". (?)

Clarify.

fyp

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 11:26:46 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 11:09:21 PM

But then you need to explain bitcoin's relation to the "ideal money".

bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (?)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (?)

I explained over and over. Bitcoin is expected to be, if we don't change it, FAIRLY stable in value, this suggest as time goes by and bitcoin becomes more relevant as a savings, fiat's stability of value will have to improve in relation.

The ultimate result is that fiat will tend towards perfectly stable value.

Quote

"ideal money" will be pegged against a Stable Value, a device like bitcoin. (?)

Bitcoin ISN'T FUCKING STABLE!!!!

Lol, Ok.
So

bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (YES)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (YES)

"ideal money" will be fiat money pegged to "ideal gold" (?)
"ideal money"'s only existence is to compete with the "other alternative". (?)

Clarify.

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 11:09:21 PM

But then you need to explain bitcoin's relation to the "ideal money".

bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (?)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (?)

I explained over and over. Bitcoin is expected to be, if we don't change it, FAIRLY stable in value, this suggest as time goes by and bitcoin becomes more relevant as a savings, fiat's stability of value will have to improve in relation.

The ultimate result is that fiat will tend towards perfectly stable value.

Quote

"ideal money" will be pegged against a Stable Value, a device like bitcoin. (?)

Bitcoin ISN'T FUCKING STABLE!!!!

traincarswreck

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Quote from: uchalkql on March 05, 2017, 11:06:05 PM

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2642475/nasa-to-explore-asteroid-16-psyche-which-is-so-valuable-it-could-crash-the-worlds-economy/

Yes. And szabo explains deep sea mining and mining astroids and eventually planets, and nash notes there is lots of gold. Its just the cost of digging for it gets higher the deeper you dig, so there is a throttle to some regard.

Nash talks about how as we explore space we will lose this certain scarce perspective.

Also its relevant to note as we free gold up for industrial use rather than as a savings, it will allow more space travel and deep sea and the political difficulties for doing so will subside.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 11:00:55 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:58:38 PM

bitcoin will increase in value
Bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money"

Correct now?

i took out the part that is wrong.

But then you need to explain bitcoin's relation to the "ideal money".

bitcoin will increase in value (YES)
bitcoin is the "other alternative" due to increase in value. (?)
"other alternative" ushers in the "ideal money". (?)
"ideal money" will be pegged against a Stable Value, a device like bitcoin. (?)
bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money" (YES)

uchalkql

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 05:43:38 PM

Quote from: franky1 on March 05, 2017, 05:41:56 PM

yet by you saying bitcoin is like gold, and gold is stable. and/or bitcoin should be more like gold
then gold should halt its ability to change how many transactions in a certain time period can occur.

golds tx/s has been changed, does change. will change
1940's only physical tx taking days to move.
1980's computer age. gold transactions move via computer transactions. and also physical gold coins. from banks pawnn brokers etc
millennium gold vending machines and even electronic stores.

These aren't examples of the nature of gold changing.

And you are wrong, bitcoin isn't beyond nash, nash spoke many years in the future beyond the advent of bitcoin. This is clear, and he was clear about this.

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2642475/nasa-to-explore-asteroid-16-psyche-which-is-so-valuable-it-could-crash-the-worlds-economy/

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:58:38 PM

bitcoin will increase in value
Bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money"

Correct now?

i took out the part that is wrong.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 10:56:07 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:47:01 PM

"Bitcoin cannot decline in value" implies there could be stabilization.

bitcoin increases in value over time which means its not stable in value and it will never be stable in value, which means it won't be stable in value. bitcoin won't be stable in value, there is nothing being implied.

OK so:

bitcoin will increase in value
ideal money is money stabilized by bitcoin's ability to increase in value
Bitcoin cannot be the "ideal money"

Correct now?

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:47:01 PM

"Bitcoin cannot decline in value" implies there could be stabilization.

bitcoin increases in value over time which means its not stable in value and it will never be stable in value, which means it won't be stable in value. bitcoin won't be stable in value, there is nothing being implied.

AgentofCoin

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Quote from: traincarswreck on March 05, 2017, 10:53:28 PM

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:47:01 PM

Declining in value implies there may be stabilization.

how can something declining in value also be stable in value when its declining (and therefore not stable)?

That was a type, see my correction above.

Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:47:01 PM

...
Edit: Oh I see... You are only saying there is no stable value, so it should be "bitcoin will increase in value".
"Bitcoin cannot decline in value" implies there could be stabilization.

traincarswreck

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Quote from: AgentofCoin on March 05, 2017, 10:47:01 PM

Declining in value implies there may be stabilization.

how can something declining in value also be stable in value when its declining (and therefore not stable)?

Topic: Open Letter to GMaxwell and Sincere Rational Core Devs - page 22. (Read 34840 times)