Open Letter to Mark Karpeles: Voluntary Reorganization Best Option for Us All - page 2.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: joehal on February 27, 2014, 08:18:14 AM

Quote from: thelema93 on February 27, 2014, 06:58:04 AM

I am going to sue Mt. Gox for fraudulently selling me a product which they knew they didn't have.

I will be contacting my Lawyers in Tokyo who speak English tomorrow (Friday 28th)

If anyone want to get in with me and split costs, let me know ASAP.

If it turns out they don't have any money, would there still be a point in suing ?
Or if they still have a few million dollar, how will that go ? You were first to sue, so you get the biggest compensation part ? To the one who sued a little late the judge is gonna say : Sorry mister, but that one pushed the trigger a little faster so he gets the money and you don't.

And to all the other thousand users who lost their money, sorry but your share will go to this user who sued first. Or how ?

That is the purpose of bankruptcy. If MtGox can pay creditors 20% of what they owe then they are all paid 20% not some 100% and some 0%. The big unknown is how the Japanese courts will treat bitcoin.

V4Vendettas

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: joehal on February 27, 2014, 08:18:14 AM

Quote from: thelema93 on February 27, 2014, 06:58:04 AM

I am going to sue Mt. Gox for fraudulently selling me a product which they knew they didn't have.

I will be contacting my Lawyers in Tokyo who speak English tomorrow (Friday 28th)

If anyone want to get in with me and split costs, let me know ASAP.

If it turns out they don't have any money, would there still be a point in suing ?
Or if they still have a few million dollar, how will that go ? You were first to sue, so you get the biggest compensation part ? To the one who sued a little late the judge is gonna say : Sorry mister, but that one pushed the trigger a little faster so he gets the money and you don't.

And to all the other thousand users who lost their money, sorry but your share will go to this user who sued first. Or how ?

Its a very good question and because I don't know the answer to that I'm already writing emails.

If that's the case its total bullshit if you ask me.

joehal

member

Activity: 93

Merit: 10

Quote from: thelema93 on February 27, 2014, 06:58:04 AM

I am going to sue Mt. Gox for fraudulently selling me a product which they knew they didn't have.

I will be contacting my Lawyers in Tokyo who speak English tomorrow (Friday 28th)

If anyone want to get in with me and split costs, let me know ASAP.

If it turns out they don't have any money, would there still be a point in suing ?
Or if they still have a few million dollar, how will that go ? You were first to sue, so you get the biggest compensation part ? To the one who sued a little late the judge is gonna say : Sorry mister, but that one pushed the trigger a little faster so he gets the money and you don't.

And to all the other thousand users who lost their money, sorry but your share will go to this user who sued first. Or how ?

thelema93

sr. member

Activity: 339

Merit: 250

I am going to sue Mt. Gox for fraudulently selling me a product which they knew they didn't have.

I will be contacting my Lawyers in Tokyo who speak English tomorrow (Friday 28th)

If anyone want to get in with me and split costs, let me know ASAP.

BitCoinNutJob

legendary

Activity: 1330

Merit: 1000

+1

2weiX

legendary

Activity: 2072

Merit: 1006

this space intentionally left blank

+1

BitOnyx

member

Activity: 112

Merit: 10

Cryptocurrencies Exchange

Quote from: rikkejohn on February 27, 2014, 02:26:26 AM

Quote from: DanielVG on February 27, 2014, 01:47:21 AM

I like this letter. A more rational approach after the emotionally charged week with all the death wishes.
Making fun of Karpeles is a reasonable result after what happened, but people talking about killing him are the worst kind we have in this community.
anyway,
Respect to this initiative!
Pick up the bricks and start building again.
You have nothing to loose (anymore)

Agree, the personal threats are over the top. Of course I'd like him to have a genuine accident, break a toe or something, but people need to be careful about specifically making threats, especially the British given the police there seem to like arresting and charging people for whatever they have tweeted on Twitter.

I wonder at what point people notice death threats are still a crime even on internet. There will be lawsuits any way.

myrond

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 27, 2014, 02:15:06 AM

Existing bearer bonds and shares are not illegal but it is no longer legal to issue new bearer shares and bonds in virtually all countries. Maybe somolia allows it but even many offshore locations revised their statutes in the last couple decades. There are a lot of outstanding US treasury bearer bonds. They no longer pay interest but they are normally used as a "reallllly" big cash note so they probably will never be redeemed.

BTW: Nevada prohibited the issuance of bearer shares in 2007.
http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2010/title7/chapter78/nrs78-235.html

Quote

edit: is it possible to create a blockchain based registry of ownership and not have them be bearer shares?

Sure if the blockchain can verify the identity of all shareholders, collect and store required information, ensure shareholders are accredited before issuing shares, enforce restrictions on transfers for private placements as required by securities laws, and file all necessary documents with regulators in a timely manner.

What about using the existing AML database from Gox and identity verified? Issue the shares and have them accredited/assured/restrictions ensured via ethereum?

Certainly up for someone smarter than me!

It says you can use blockchain for a datastore, GOX be the issuer and be the match for allowed public keys.. the ethereum share then is programmed to only be able to be traded between the primary list of registered holders that were certified by box on the blockchain. If you want to change to a new key you need to register that key with gox and for a fee they will add a new allowed public key to the published allowed list to participate in ownership... I'm just brainstorming here.

Perhaps it is possible?? It would be a very interesting showcase of blockchain technology

rikkejohn

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 500

Quote from: DanielVG on February 27, 2014, 01:47:21 AM

I like this letter. A more rational approach after the emotionally charged week with all the death wishes.
Making fun of Karpeles is a reasonable result after what happened, but people talking about killing him are the worst kind we have in this community.
anyway,
Respect to this initiative!
Pick up the bricks and start building again.
You have nothing to loose (anymore)

Agree, the personal threats are over the top. Of course I'd like him to have a genuine accident, break a toe or something, but people need to be careful about specifically making threats, especially the British given the police there seem to like arresting and charging people for whatever they have tweeted on Twitter.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Existing bearer bonds and shares are not illegal but it is no longer legal to issue new bearer shares and bonds in virtually all countries. Maybe somolia allows it but even many offshore locations revised their statutes in the last couple decades. There are a lot of outstanding US treasury bearer bonds. They no longer pay interest but they are normally used as a "reallllly" big cash note so they probably will never be redeemed.

BTW: Nevada prohibited the issuance of bearer shares in 2007.
http://law.justia.com/codes/nevada/2010/title7/chapter78/nrs78-235.html

Quote

edit: is it possible to create a blockchain based registry of ownership and not have them be bearer shares?

Sure if the blockchain can verify the identity of all shareholders, collect and store required information, ensure shareholders are accredited before issuing shares, enforce restrictions on transfers for private placements as required by securities laws, and file all necessary documents with regulators in a timely manner.

myrond

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 27, 2014, 01:54:14 AM

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:51:35 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 27, 2014, 01:36:19 AM

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:33:37 AM

Launch the equity as GOX traded colored coins (or other blockchain based overlay for stock ownership), which when/if profit is made BTC will be distributed to shareholders.

and be immediately shutdown and seized by Japanese regulators for securities violations.

I don't know the lawful method in Japan. Another way then? I do like the idea of a blockchain based ownership system.

The same reason you like it, is the same reason just about every nation on earth has banned bearer shares a couple decades ago. Most off shore locations no longer allow bearer shares. Securities laws are generally speaking insanely complex, but they (almost?) never allow unregistered securities to be sold to the public or publicly traded.

They really are illegal? According to: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Equity_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act_of_1982 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bearer_bond it seems that they made it so the interest can never be tax deductible for the issuer. Does that mean they are still illegal? Or just fiscally not desireable for the issuer.

I'm not trying to argue or anything with you.. I truly don't know and would like to understand it better and the history of how this happened.

edit: reading further, these are bearer bonds, not bearer shares... I need to read further

Okay reading further, they are banned in all US states except for wyoming and Nevada... fascinating
source: http://www.quickmba.com/law/corporation/nevada/

edit: is it possible to create a blockchain based registry of ownership and not have them be bearer shares?

myrond

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Quote from: Xtraeme on February 27, 2014, 01:39:02 AM

You should probably circulate this via reddit and through other social networking services.

This is probably the only option left.

It is on reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1yyrvf/open_letter_to_mark_karpeles_voluntary/

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:51:35 AM

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 27, 2014, 01:36:19 AM

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:33:37 AM

Launch the equity as GOX traded colored coins (or other blockchain based overlay for stock ownership), which when/if profit is made BTC will be distributed to shareholders.

and be immediately shutdown and seized by Japanese regulators for securities violations.

I don't know the lawful method in Japan. Another way then? I do like the idea of a blockchain based ownership system.

The same reason you like it, is the same reason just about every nation on earth has banned bearer shares a couple decades ago. Most off shore locations no longer allow bearer shares. Securities laws are generally speaking insanely complex, but they (almost?) never allow unregistered securities to be sold to the public or publicly traded.

myrond

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

Quote from: DeathAndTaxes on February 27, 2014, 01:36:19 AM

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:33:37 AM

Launch the equity as GOX traded colored coins (or other blockchain based overlay for stock ownership), which when/if profit is made BTC will be distributed to shareholders.

and be immediately shutdown and seized by Japanese regulators for securities violations.

I don't know the lawful method in Japan. Another way then? I do like the idea of a blockchain based ownership system.

DanielVG

sr. member

Activity: 266

Merit: 250

I want free lunch, i'm gonna go with this guy.

I like this letter. A more rational approach after the emotionally charged week with all the death wishes.
Making fun of Karpeles is a reasonable result after what happened, but people talking about killing him are the worst kind we have in this community.
anyway,
Respect to this initiative!
Pick up the bricks and start building again.
You have nothing to loose (anymore)

Xtraeme

newbie

Activity: 5

Merit: 0

You should probably circulate this via reddit and through other social networking services.

This is probably the only option left.

DeathAndTaxes

donator

Activity: 1218

Merit: 1079

Gerald Davis

Quote from: myrond on February 27, 2014, 01:33:37 AM

Launch the equity as GOX traded colored coins (or other blockchain based overlay for stock ownership), which when/if profit is made BTC will be distributed to shareholders.

and be immediately shutdown and seized by Japanese regulators for securities violations.

Opsamk

full member

Activity: 122

Merit: 100

The best case scenario is that these coins are now "stale" or unusable (but can still exist if they find the keys). The worse case scenario (which is equally probable), is that the coins were really stolen.

myrond

newbie

Activity: 46

Merit: 0

I think it will either be a bankruptcy fight or a debt-for-equity and fix gox.

I think more value is in a voluntary debt-for-equity of gox, run a re-branding/management and relaunch with better audits and controls.

Launch the equity as GOX traded colored coins (or other blockchain based overlay for stock ownership), which when/if profit is made BTC will be distributed to shareholders.

Hrumph

newbie

Activity: 23

Merit: 0

Presumably, many of us want Mark's head and justly so, but this idea is nevertheless our best hope at recovering anything at all of value from mtgox. Lengthy bankruptcy proceedings and liquidation of the assets will take a long time (perhaps years) and leave us with virtually nothing after the parasitic lawyers take their cut.

I personally chafe at the idea of outright forgiving Mark, but, since this is probably our best hope for salvaging anything at all from the wreckage, we must put aside thoughts of vengeance and move forward..

I am not very optimistic about anything now, but this is the best plan that I know of. I do hope that this project succeeds.

Topic: Open Letter to Mark Karpeles: Voluntary Reorganization Best Option for Us All - page 2. (Read 7380 times)