Excellent job nio, I think everyone's appreciating the level of structure you're bringing to the project.
We got a terrific start and things will only get more interesting from here.
@Kora
I fully agree we need to focus on what we'd like Ora to do. Like for example mixing functions from various coins to create something better. This way we can pinpoint the next steps more accurately. I also agree we need to trust those who are experts in their fields like nio to do their thing. We should however all voice our opinions.
Topic: ORA:: Development discussion thread - page 3. (Read 13450 times)
Nice piece Kora and very impressive paper nio.
To me a few of the most important features of a new coin in the current climate are...
1. Ease of use. A lot of coins are striving for this at the moment, but nobody has really cracked it yet. We should aim for a system that is as easy to use as gmail for instance.
2. Security. Again this has to be bullet proof but easy for the end user to implement. No paper wallets or offline wallets. 2FA is probably a must.
3. Clean UI . Some coins are integrating chat and secure email etc, but I feel that these are not necessary and there are plenty of 3rd party apps that would probably do a better job
To me a few of the most important features of a new coin in the current climate are...
1. Ease of use. A lot of coins are striving for this at the moment, but nobody has really cracked it yet. We should aim for a system that is as easy to use as gmail for instance.
2. Security. Again this has to be bullet proof but easy for the end user to implement. No paper wallets or offline wallets. 2FA is probably a must.
3. Clean UI . Some coins are integrating chat and secure email etc, but I feel that these are not necessary and there are plenty of 3rd party apps that would probably do a better job
Some great discussion in this thread, very inspiring!
Whatever dev path we go down I don't think we need to feel rushed to get something out fast, just to be in 'the game'. That's what issuing the ORA asset token satisfies in the short-medium term. Day traders can have their fun (and at 427 trades to date they certainly are), and 'investors' can buy-in & sell-out as they choose, and it doesn't have to effect the dev side of ORA too much. I'm focused on the longer term, and I won't be selling any of my ORA until many years from now. I will give some away though, and buy some more for some day trading 'fun', but I'm in for the long haul!
I'd like to think that we have enough time to develop the dev 'road map' and our 'community processes' first, and if that takes a little while to do then I don't have a problem with that. In my mind it's 12:05am in crypto land, and the vast majority of humans are still fast asleep when it comes to decentralised blockchains & distributed financial networks. The real crypto explosion when combined market cap gets into the trillions hasn't started yet, so it's better to focus on the bigger picture now, and weigh up all our options BEFORE we begin the dev journey! It's still anyone's guess, but I think the real crypto contenders wont really start to battle it out in the mainstream until 2016, so that's still 2 years away.
Good communication that keeps people informed of our progress is critical, and I'd love for someone to step up into that roll if there's anybody keen to help with that now, but if the market consensus on our progress ebbs & flows a bit during development, and if that causes some price volatility from time-to-time, then that's a good thing IMO, as it keeps the day traders interested, and that gives us more exposure.
The long term believers in this project will either hodl, buy more, or do a bit of day trading for fun & profit, or some combinations of all those options. Hopefully the true believers will earn some bounties too!!
Now that ORA is tradeable we're not a 'boring' crypto by any means, even during development, and that's a BIG advantage compared to many other coins. We can resist the 'must get on multiple exchanges as fast as possible or we'll die' mentality. We really can! There's no rule book on how a coin 'should' be developed. The day traders can 'party' 24/7 on the NXT AE for a long time ... there's no deadline for that stage of ORA in my mind. The dev team can explore multiple options until they are happy that ORA is finished, and they're satisfied that ORA solves the challenges we set out for it during the planning stage (i.e. NOW). If that takes longer than with most other coin projects I'm not going to let than worry me.
As for the specifics of which dev path we go down - Qora or bitshares - new innovation vs straight clone - I'll probably be guided more by the expert opinions in our community rather than relying on my own limited technical knowledge. I am, however, a strong believer in the idea that most successful products are more of a synthesis of existing ideas with lateral thinking making a new connection, rather than being based on truly 'new' ideas & concepts. Most NEW products & services rely heavily on existing products & services for their origins, and good designers, engineers & architects are always 'extending' what already exists. Those who sit and wait for inspiration to create something 100% NEW & unique will probably wait a lifetime, unless they are a genius, which most of us aren't
Look at an iPhone for example, a great product that packaged existing 'things' together in a new way. An iPhone is basically a mash-up of 'cloned' bits & pieces from other devices.
Only a true genius can come up with an original idea, or concept, or invention that is truly 'new'. There's only been a small handful of truly innovative thinkers through history, (e.g. Newton, Einstein, Tesla), so how can we explain the massive amount of human knowledge and inventions? Most inventions are based heavily on copying existing ideas, 'cloning', lateral thinking. Most people build on the work of others, repackage existing 'things' in different ways, copy & modify etc etc
This happens in all fields of human learning and creativity. In music it's very common. One great example of this process is when Jazz musician Miles Davis combined Jazz musicians with electric instruments in the late 60's and almost single-handedly created a whole new style of music that went on to influence all musicians ever since. Jazz music previously existed, and so did electric instruments & amplification, but before Miles Davis nobody thought to put the two together. The end result is something incredibly cool, and very 'innovative', but the stroke of genius is in the 'synthesis' of two existing things, so the end result was achieved from 'copying' existing ideas & techniques, but in a new way.
The world is full of these examples. The Supermarket was born when a shop clerk waiting in line at a cafeteria 'synthesised' the functions of a 19th century 'grocery store' with a self-serving food cafeteria. Someone else thought of putting the shopping basket on wheels, and so invented the shopping trolley, but the basic idea of a Supermarket came from a new combination of two existing types of shops (cafeteria & grocery store). Lateral thinking is very powerful.
I think the sensible strategy with ORA is to work out what we want ORA to 'DO', and then we look at ALL available crypto coin platforms and synthesis existing solutions with new code where it's needed. The first task is deciding what goals we have for ORA, what problems will it solve that other coin platforms have missed. If we can't answer that question, then that would imply that a 'perfect' coin already exists, and if that were the case we should probably stop ORA asap and go and support that coin instead! ORA must solve a problem that hasn't been done yet, or solve it 'better' than an existing option. We have to make the end user better off!!!
IMO there are a lot of really interesting coins on the market, but none of the big contenders has achieved the perfect combination of features yet, so there's plenty of scope for a newcomer like ORA to offer something "NEW", even if what we do is synthesis ideas & code & features from existing coins, and tie them all together into something unique, like electric Jazz, or a Supermarket
Whatever dev path we go down I don't think we need to feel rushed to get something out fast, just to be in 'the game'. That's what issuing the ORA asset token satisfies in the short-medium term. Day traders can have their fun (and at 427 trades to date they certainly are), and 'investors' can buy-in & sell-out as they choose, and it doesn't have to effect the dev side of ORA too much. I'm focused on the longer term, and I won't be selling any of my ORA until many years from now. I will give some away though, and buy some more for some day trading 'fun', but I'm in for the long haul!
I'd like to think that we have enough time to develop the dev 'road map' and our 'community processes' first, and if that takes a little while to do then I don't have a problem with that. In my mind it's 12:05am in crypto land, and the vast majority of humans are still fast asleep when it comes to decentralised blockchains & distributed financial networks. The real crypto explosion when combined market cap gets into the trillions hasn't started yet, so it's better to focus on the bigger picture now, and weigh up all our options BEFORE we begin the dev journey! It's still anyone's guess, but I think the real crypto contenders wont really start to battle it out in the mainstream until 2016, so that's still 2 years away.
Good communication that keeps people informed of our progress is critical, and I'd love for someone to step up into that roll if there's anybody keen to help with that now, but if the market consensus on our progress ebbs & flows a bit during development, and if that causes some price volatility from time-to-time, then that's a good thing IMO, as it keeps the day traders interested, and that gives us more exposure.
The long term believers in this project will either hodl, buy more, or do a bit of day trading for fun & profit, or some combinations of all those options. Hopefully the true believers will earn some bounties too!!
Now that ORA is tradeable we're not a 'boring' crypto by any means, even during development, and that's a BIG advantage compared to many other coins. We can resist the 'must get on multiple exchanges as fast as possible or we'll die' mentality. We really can! There's no rule book on how a coin 'should' be developed. The day traders can 'party' 24/7 on the NXT AE for a long time ... there's no deadline for that stage of ORA in my mind. The dev team can explore multiple options until they are happy that ORA is finished, and they're satisfied that ORA solves the challenges we set out for it during the planning stage (i.e. NOW). If that takes longer than with most other coin projects I'm not going to let than worry me.
As for the specifics of which dev path we go down - Qora or bitshares - new innovation vs straight clone - I'll probably be guided more by the expert opinions in our community rather than relying on my own limited technical knowledge. I am, however, a strong believer in the idea that most successful products are more of a synthesis of existing ideas with lateral thinking making a new connection, rather than being based on truly 'new' ideas & concepts. Most NEW products & services rely heavily on existing products & services for their origins, and good designers, engineers & architects are always 'extending' what already exists. Those who sit and wait for inspiration to create something 100% NEW & unique will probably wait a lifetime, unless they are a genius, which most of us aren't
Look at an iPhone for example, a great product that packaged existing 'things' together in a new way. An iPhone is basically a mash-up of 'cloned' bits & pieces from other devices.
Only a true genius can come up with an original idea, or concept, or invention that is truly 'new'. There's only been a small handful of truly innovative thinkers through history, (e.g. Newton, Einstein, Tesla), so how can we explain the massive amount of human knowledge and inventions? Most inventions are based heavily on copying existing ideas, 'cloning', lateral thinking. Most people build on the work of others, repackage existing 'things' in different ways, copy & modify etc etc
This happens in all fields of human learning and creativity. In music it's very common. One great example of this process is when Jazz musician Miles Davis combined Jazz musicians with electric instruments in the late 60's and almost single-handedly created a whole new style of music that went on to influence all musicians ever since. Jazz music previously existed, and so did electric instruments & amplification, but before Miles Davis nobody thought to put the two together. The end result is something incredibly cool, and very 'innovative', but the stroke of genius is in the 'synthesis' of two existing things, so the end result was achieved from 'copying' existing ideas & techniques, but in a new way.
The world is full of these examples. The Supermarket was born when a shop clerk waiting in line at a cafeteria 'synthesised' the functions of a 19th century 'grocery store' with a self-serving food cafeteria. Someone else thought of putting the shopping basket on wheels, and so invented the shopping trolley, but the basic idea of a Supermarket came from a new combination of two existing types of shops (cafeteria & grocery store). Lateral thinking is very powerful.
I think the sensible strategy with ORA is to work out what we want ORA to 'DO', and then we look at ALL available crypto coin platforms and synthesis existing solutions with new code where it's needed. The first task is deciding what goals we have for ORA, what problems will it solve that other coin platforms have missed. If we can't answer that question, then that would imply that a 'perfect' coin already exists, and if that were the case we should probably stop ORA asap and go and support that coin instead! ORA must solve a problem that hasn't been done yet, or solve it 'better' than an existing option. We have to make the end user better off!!!
IMO there are a lot of really interesting coins on the market, but none of the big contenders has achieved the perfect combination of features yet, so there's plenty of scope for a newcomer like ORA to offer something "NEW", even if what we do is synthesis ideas & code & features from existing coins, and tie them all together into something unique, like electric Jazz, or a Supermarket
I. Orastarfishians (Oras) want to expedite the existence of the Ora cryptocoin.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Exactly. I dont think we need a faster coin. But a Plan or roadmap of whats happening, current status and where are we heading to or direction.
Your wish is granted.
The project planning docs, v1.0 release, are available for download here: https://github.com/nioccoin/ora_project/releases/tag/v1.0
Github will be the official portal for these documents, so updates will appear there as "versioned" releases.
This is a baseline release, but it does contain some hints about what direction I want to take Ora. Remember, this is the jumping off place. This is not "the plan" but merely "a plan". You might look at this and want to rip it to shreds. Great! Let's hear your own ideas.
What I would like to see happen is for everyone to focus most of their attention on the "risk register". Those risk items will serve as our "opportunities" to explore and sift for potential new features. I will also be adding a change management template soon, so we can begin formalizing stakeholder ideas that change or augment the project as we move forward.
Some of the risks in the risk register are cryptic, because they harbour some ideas that I have been mulling in terms of new Ora features, and the ideas are incomplete. Feel free to ask questions. I will be providing more in-depth explanations in the near future.
kind regards,
nio
Thanks nio! I encourage everyone to review nio's documents, and then share your thoughts, suggestions & opinions with the community
I. Orastarfishians (Oras) want to expedite the existence of the Ora cryptocoin.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Exactly. I dont think we need a faster coin. But a Plan or roadmap of whats happening, current status and where are we heading to or direction.
Your wish is granted.
The project planning docs, v1.0 release, are available for download here: https://github.com/nioccoin/ora_project/releases/tag/v1.0
Github will be the official portal for these documents, so updates will appear there as "versioned" releases.
This is a baseline release, but it does contain some hints about what direction I want to take Ora. Remember, this is the jumping off place. This is not "the plan" but merely "a plan". You might look at this and want to rip it to shreds. Great! Let's hear your own ideas.
What I would like to see happen is for everyone to focus most of their attention on the "risk register". Those risk items will serve as our "opportunities" to explore and sift for potential new features. I will also be adding a change management template soon, so we can begin formalizing stakeholder ideas that change or augment the project as we move forward.
Some of the risks in the risk register are cryptic, because they harbour some ideas that I have been mulling in terms of new Ora features, and the ideas are incomplete. Feel free to ask questions. I will be providing more in-depth explanations in the near future.
kind regards,
nio
Nxt is an ecology. I wouldnt want to and clone that. It gets too complicated and there is one thing, people will start comparing ora with this and that.
Instead i read somewhere in this thread. What do we want to solve? Probably we should look at target end users. How can we make ORA appeal to all businesses globally. What restrictions does the current coins facing?
Instead i read somewhere in this thread. What do we want to solve? Probably we should look at target end users. How can we make ORA appeal to all businesses globally. What restrictions does the current coins facing?
restrictions of current coins:
- complicated setup and usage for end users
for average Joe is diffcult to install sofware if is not one click install
- lack of simplicity for endusers in client software
having lot of options in client can turn avay average joe becasue he won't understand them
also majority of people use send receive operations mostly so having a client simple
as paypal would not be a problem for averegae joe
- slow transaciton confirmations 1min to 10min
due to this is not possbile to use any cryptocurrecy in stores without 3rd parties
if you want mass adoption the coin needs to have from 1 to 10 sec transaction
confirmations and should be able to repalce or in part visa or other credit cards
- bloted blockchains or data storage required
due to this the coin can't scale to visa size.
curretnly this does not seems a problem because the percentage of people in world
that are using BTC or other cryptocurrency is small, but immagine if 3 billions
people will use BTC or ORA how this blockchains will increase in size?!
- lack of anonymitiy (maybe)
this could be problem for some users but for others not it depends what are the tradeofs
I mean other features implemented in the coin for exemple someone does not care about anonimity
becuse is enough for him to have cheap transaction costs.
How long would it take to develop code from scratch? Thing is if we clone a coin we're gonna get the usual "SHITCOIN CLONE SCAM" fud..
I doubt we'll see much of that. These are cutting edge technologies that have never been cloned before. (Qora and Bitshares)
Sure there are always trolls, but no one is going to have any legit argument against ORA. It's building on brand new tech with a fair distribution and community activity.
If I wasn't currently involved with a another currency project I'd love to get fully involved. For now though I have my stake and I'm observing and supporting.
Nxt is an ecology. I wouldnt want to and clone that. It gets too complicated and there is one thing, people will start comparing ora with this and that.
Instead i read somewhere in this thread. What do we want to solve? Probably we should look at target end users. How can we make ORA appeal to all businesses globally. What restrictions does the current coins facing?
Instead i read somewhere in this thread. What do we want to solve? Probably we should look at target end users. How can we make ORA appeal to all businesses globally. What restrictions does the current coins facing?
How long would it take to develop code from scratch? Thing is if we clone a coin we're gonna get the usual "SHITCOIN CLONE SCAM" fud..
My best estimate for an original codebase is at least 800 man hours. That estimate is based on a Qora or NXT-like exchange system. And, that estimate does not include the systems analysis or the code design.
I don't think it is worth it. I would rather put the major effort into innovation.
Given that even Qora and NXT are routinely fudded, that won't go into any calculations of what direction we will head. We are going down one road or another regardless of, and perhaps in spite of, fud.
kind regards,
nio
How long would it take to develop code from scratch? Thing is if we clone a coin we're gonna get the usual "SHITCOIN CLONE SCAM" fud..
I would go for option b).
b) Keep the IP closed for a short while, thereby protecting the IP until Ora is too far ahead for copycats to catch up to it.
Yup, that seems to me the best middle ground.
However, it is at odds with the open nature of Ora. And it complicates the dissemination of information about what direction Ora is heading.
Hmmm. What to do?
...
As for what to use for a clone, presuming we don't write it from scratch, I'm not sold out on BTS or any other coin base to clone at this point. But since you brought it up, what do you see that makes BTS better, or the best coin to clone?
As for what to use for a clone, presuming we don't write it from scratch, I'm not sold out on BTS or any other coin base to clone at this point. But since you brought it up, what do you see that makes BTS better, or the best coin to clone?
Good question. Another angle would be this: Is there something we'd like Ora to do (technically) which can't be done using BTS as a base? What could potentially be the negative aspects of using it?
When will ORA have wallet?
Its not decided yet what to clone and here you are asking about wallet
When will ORA have wallet?
I. Orastarfishians (Oras) want to expedite the existence of the Ora cryptocoin.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Exactly. I dont think we need a faster coin. But a Plan or roadmap of whats happening, current status and where are we heading to or direction.
I. Orastarfishians (Oras) want to expedite the existence of the Ora cryptocoin.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
Honestly if I'd guess what a lot of people want right now, it's less a finished coin and more of a general plan and timeline.
I like to believe people are generally able to wait for a long time (if needed) as long as they know what they're waiting for. If they don't, they risk getting frustrated.
It's also easier to work on promoting the project via blogs/websites when you know more details.
Example: in X months we want to try to achieve Y.
I would go for option b).
1. Should Ora be a direct clone of another coin at all?
I think cloning is the better option as you have a solid base to work from. The choice of which coin to clone is really one that you feel most comfortable with. Do you wish to handle the project on your own or perhaps join a team?
2. Does it matter if Ora is innovative, or only that it exists?
Innovative. clone choice is important.
3. Should Ora first exist, then innovate later?
yes imo
4. Should Ora innovate before it exists
^^?
5. What defines Ora today?
fair and free distribution
6. Is what defines Ora today "enough" to sustain it? For how long?
Not long, things move fast.
7. What should define Ora tomorrow?
Solid growing community creating a coin that they want
8. Should Ora "come to market" quickly and with less planning?
Yes and no. It needs to come to market quickly (as things move fast) which is why i suggested a good clone, but the clone has to be bullet proof with clearly defined goals for innovation stated before launch
9. Should Ora come to market slowly and with more planning?
^^
10. Is Ora's most important feature short-term price, or long-term value? How best to achieve your preferred answer?
^^^
I think cloning is the better option as you have a solid base to work from. The choice of which coin to clone is really one that you feel most comfortable with. Do you wish to handle the project on your own or perhaps join a team?
2. Does it matter if Ora is innovative, or only that it exists?
Innovative. clone choice is important.
3. Should Ora first exist, then innovate later?
yes imo
4. Should Ora innovate before it exists
^^?
5. What defines Ora today?
fair and free distribution
6. Is what defines Ora today "enough" to sustain it? For how long?
Not long, things move fast.
7. What should define Ora tomorrow?
Solid growing community creating a coin that they want
8. Should Ora "come to market" quickly and with less planning?
Yes and no. It needs to come to market quickly (as things move fast) which is why i suggested a good clone, but the clone has to be bullet proof with clearly defined goals for innovation stated before launch
9. Should Ora come to market slowly and with more planning?
^^
10. Is Ora's most important feature short-term price, or long-term value? How best to achieve your preferred answer?
^^^
following this development post .
Do whatever you need us .
My 2c.
If you nio, are ready and willing to create the next best original coin go for it!
One question though, tell us how (best case scenario) it will be better than anything currently available?
Do you have a plan, or at least an idea. If yes, let's hear it first.
If you nio, are ready and willing to create the next best original coin go for it!
One question though, tell us how (best case scenario) it will be better than anything currently available?
Do you have a plan, or at least an idea. If yes, let's hear it first.
+1 for the original coin.
You should continue your plans and Ora should "come to market" quickly.
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