Topic: (Ordinals) BRC-20 needs to be removed - page 15. (Read 6547 times)

I agree. For many use cases,  people don't need insane network speeds. Even something like 50mbps down and 5 up might work. But you're not going to be downloading the blockchain very fast that way. Nor will you be downloading things like Windows 10 very fast but I guess it could be done. Funny thing is, even with no bandwith limit on your side, the site you're trying to hit up might be slow which means you're still downloading slowly.

this was like 4 or 5 years ago that I saw someone looking for people to upload videos for them. And guess what? They didn't want people with slow speeds. I think he might have said something like if you're lower than 128mbps on the upload then don't even bother. Probably plenty of people had higher than that. That was 4 or 5 years ago. Just imagine what he wants from them now. Probably 500 or more. So yeah, uploading videos...

no one ever said people need to have 100/40. unless someone is doing something like uploading videos or downloading movies all the time or huge ISO images of Windows all the time I would think even less than 100/40 would be perfectly fine. Unless their job requires them to be doing HD videoconferencing or something. Not sure what that would require.

And then most of the time it sits there unused except for a couple hours a day maybe when someone is browing the web or watching youtube. could be a complete waste of money. And then you have to ask how much data can they really transfer before they get booted?

i agree. what the ISP industry is trying to do is get rid of the lower speed plans so they can charge more for the more expensive ones but still limit you to the same amount of data transfer per month. that's the real issue. people don't really need 1000/200. unless they're doing something specialized like uploading tons of videos.

My bandwidth plan isn't the max that my ISP offers, I could've more if I wanted, but frankly I don't need more and I don't see a reason to pay for more when I rarely even saturate my current bandwidth limits, YMMV though.


I'm curious to learn what the tip of the digital age has bandwidth needs for. What am I missing out without even knowing it? Again, YMMV. I don't know why you constantly try to impose your bandwidth needs onto others. Or maybe I missinterpret it?

I had 50/10 MBit before and didn't feel too bad with the download speed, but the upload speed of 10MBit was sometimes a bit of a bottleneck. That's why I took  the opportunity to up my plan to 100+/40+ when there was a nice offer with some other nice options from my ISP. The next plan at my location would be 250/40 MBit which only would give me more download speed which I don't need maybe 95+% of the time.
Glass fiber is coming too, my ISP has done most of its part to provide it in my area, at least they claim it, but house owners and rental need to do their part that the building where I live gets FTTH installed. If and once this is done, there will be plans like 1000/200 MBit.

I'd still have to find applications in my household for such a bandwidth. Sure, it's nice to have, but it's not for free and I'd need to have a reason to pay for it, which I currently simply don't have. No need to waste money here.


Where do you read in my posts that I have an issue with segwit block sizes or your other silly claims. I'm fine with and don't oppose Segwit block sizes. You make your false claims for what reason exactly?
My personal opinion is that I'm not OK with to exploit a loophole in Taproot which allows to arbitrarily fill witness data space until Segwit limits for even a single transaction, i.e. Ordinals crap filling the blockchain with some bullshit. You're right, it's not on me to judge what is bullshit or not. This arbitrarily added data has nothing to do with the transaction details like inputs and outputs itself.


I assume your mental capacity allows you to distinguish between mandatory transaction content like inputs and outputs and superficially added arbitrary data that isn't necessary for a Bitcoin transaction. We might differ in opinions about that. And btw I don't oppose the OP_RETURN mechanism at all. This has sensible limits which were rarely abused like what we see now with Ordinals.
I don't care about others spent inputs and destination outputs of transactions. Sure, valid transactions have to follow consensus rules, that's not new. But it isn't the first time that some flaws show up in Bitcoin. It's rare but it happened in the past and in my opinion we have a flaw right now. If and how that is to be dealt with, it's not me alone to decide, no question.

and you my friend are on the very low end of the internet speed continuum i would have to say. just a fact here in the usa.

it may not be the norm for others but if they expect to be in the digital age, then there's just some things they won't be able to do if they have a speed like yours even. yours is on the very low end of what someone might consider acceptable in this day and age. here in the USA particularly.

IMO if someone has an issue with block size now vs pre-segwit then they have an issue with segwit. so they should direct their finger in that direction rather than people using the features of segwit to make blocks bigger than 1MB. whether someone considers segwit to be bloating or misusing the blockchain is their own opinion. hardware tech can handle it though and much more. kind of like someone that expects to be able to run a full linux distro using an old computer with a 200MB hard drive. they just need to get with the times. or suffer the consequences.

well thats how bitcoin works. if you don't like the idea of storing other peoples' transactional information then maybe you don't want to run a full node. decentralized does not mean free or without any burden or responsibility...just my opinion. keep in mind, what business is it of yours what someone else's bitcoin transaction is for? none at all right? you shouldn't care or be concerned about it. because that's their business as long as their transaction follows the consensus rules it's none of anyone's business what the details of the transaction are. who sent it, who they send it to, none of that.

At first I feel it's kind of off-topic to talk about ISPs and their not uncommon bandwidth lies, but it has actually something to do with this thread's topic and concerns some have with this Ordinals and BRC-20 stuff.

I pay for VDSL internet connection with around 100MBit down- and 40MBit upstream and I get this bandwidth in both directions, multiple times tested to full extend. It's not the cheapest provider in my area (I'm first world citizen, btw) and I deliberately stay at my provider because I never had any severe issues with service delivery quality and reliability of my connection. I'm OK to pay more for that.
Monthly I create traffic between 300-400 GiB both down- and upstream, my average is usually somewhere in between 600-750 GiB/month combined. Very occasionally I have peaked this to over one TiB/month combined. I have no explicit volume cap in my contract nor did I ever receive any contract termination threat from my provider. In above volume there's some Youtube and other streaming included, but that part isn't much because I didn't stream a lot in the last few months.

Can I expect this to be the norm for others? Of course, not! And I don't know why @larry_vw_1955 thinks that his ISP "luxury" could be the norm for others everywhere. (I might over-exaggerate it a bit...)


Bigger HDDs or SSDs can easily hold the blockchain for years in the future but a constantly bloated blockchain still takes more time to transfer (puts more toll on those who provide blockchain data online and on the receiver side due to maybe bandwidth restrictions), takes probably more time to verify and the bloated space requirement is on everybody who wants or needs to hold a full copy of the blockchain (current pruning isn't ideal and doesn't help or work for all situations). Better newer hardware shouldn't be an excuse for bloating or missuse.

I simply don't think it's a good and worthy idea to be able to store up to nearly 4MB of arbitrary metadata into a Bitcoin transaction even if you have to pay the fee market price for it. I can't judge the pictures or other data that people throw into the blockchain with the Ordinals shit. The ability to easily do it is a flaw in my opinion and we all have to suffer the consequences of it.

i mean greg, if bitcoin permits it then how can you say it is wrong to do it? you're really coming down hard on me and i wasn't trying to argue with you at all. i was just pointing out that tech is progressing at a rapid rate.

i'm supposed to believe a few people posting here over an authoritative article let's look at part of what it said:


The Gigabit 2x plan will initially limit customers to uploading files at 200Mbps. However, starting in 2023, multi-gig symmetrical speeds will be possible, thanks to a technology called DOCSIS 4.0.

Comcast has been transitioning to the standard for the past few years. Once that work is complete, it will have the network in place to offer 10Gbps download speeds and 6Gbps upload speeds on the same connection. In turn, that would allow it to provide symmetrical speeds across many of its cable packages. That’s an area where cable has historically lagged compared to fiber optic internet.


it doesn't matter if bitcoin was designed to store data or not. all that matters is if people use it for that or not.

comparing using bitcoin to do something that is allowed by the rules as they currently exist and have existed since early this year to something illegal like urinating in a public water fountain yeah you need to update your logic...

now, if you'll excuse me i think i need to go do an internet speedtest to see if they're giving me what i'm supposed to be getting. all this talk about being ripped off by ISPs has me wanting to double check...

I see in the thread that several people have explained to you already that these claimed speeds are at best peak rates, and in practice are pretty much a lie.  Comcast, for example, sends termination threats to users with sustained rate of >=6.2 mbps averaged over a month (I got one last month).

It's already also been explained to you that embedded irrelevant data in Bitcoin is *already* getting people sued.  

Meanwhile, to the extent that it really is no big deal, then you should expect systems *designed* to store data for people to exist and be usable and get the job done.

Expecting Bitcoin which is expressly *not* designed to do this, doesn't do it efficiently (e.g. no affordance for distributing storage across multiple systems) and hardly even does it today (as mentioned: it doesn't provide arbitrary retrieval) to do it for you in the future is seems foolish indeed.

But hey, maybe mankind is just too fucking stupid to deserve Bitcoin and it'll get fucked up by abusive idiots that can't resist urinating in the public water fountain any time there isn't a physical barrier preventing them from doing it.  That would be sad, but it would be far from the first time it's happened.

Comcast debuts 2Gbps internet service in four states
https://www.engadget.com/comcast-gigabit-2x-announced-203440991.html

Seagate's HAMR hard drives will debut with a whopping 32TB capacity this year, 40TB to follow
https://www.tweaktown.com/news/91797/seagates-hamr-hard-drives-will-debut-with-whopping-32tb-capacity-this-year-40tb-to-follow/index.html

I'm not so convinced its going to be necessary to do anything at all. I guess we'll have to wait and see. yes not everyone is going to have access to these things due to their location/financial situation but some people will.

If you're okay with the security implications of that, then fine! it's yet another explanation as to why there is very little to think the retrieveability of this data will be high far into the future.  My more elaborate answer only explains that even if you hold the security properties constant there is little reason to expect it.

it seems like such a huge problem for such a simple seeming thing. if everyone could just agree on the same utxo set at a certain block height they could jettison everything that came before that. kind of   and then it would be like restarting the entire blockchain from a new genisys block the only difference would be there was an existing utxo set not an empty one...that's how you solve the storage problem. every so often the chain has to be reset.
 

Nah.  That could be side information computed as part the proving process, it doesn't need to be part of the block commitment.

E.g. prove "block hash x with resulting utxo state hash xu is a valid successor to block y with utxo state hash yu".

And each block commits to every prior utxo set state by committing to the history of all blocks before it.  So, for example its possible to construct a proof that says "output 0xDEADBEEF:01 is a member of the utxo set at height 1000 of this chain with height 1001 hash Y" its just that the prover must process the whole chain up to height 1000 while constructing the proof.  The prover might be more efficient with an optimized commitment structure but it isn't necessary.  You can produce a proof for the output of ANY program. If a program can validate it, a proof can be provided.

i'm skeptical that such a system could work for bitcoin unless they changed up the structure of bitcoin blocks to include some type of utxo set commitment inside each block. but i guess if you did that, maybe it could work.

because the way it is right now, an individual block doesn't really tell you anything about what the existing utxo set is or any of its properties. that would need to change somehow.

If that we're true you'd have a point, but the good news is that isn't.

It's possible using cryptography to construct proof for statements like "0xDEADBEEF is the hash of the tip of a blockchain starting at the genesis block where all rules pass, with total difficulty Y", where the proof is much smaller than the blockchain (in some cases only a few hundred bytes).

Such systems are already in production use for small programs today. Scaling them up to work over the whole bitcoin blockchain is a (considerable) engineering exercise, but I think it's inevitable-- well inevitable that the proof systems are developed to that extent.  If Bitcoin will deploy them or not will depend on if anyone is still willing to work on it.

(And you should hope these tools are developed, because we've already seen what people do when validating the history becomes too expensive-- they skip it)

Add me to the list. Downloading the 2.6TB archive of all historical reddit posts got me one.

true unlimited is only a theoretical thing. in practice it means whatever the company offering the service wants it to mean. we all know that. same with "unlimited lifetime cloud storage" snake oil for one time payment...maybe some newbies don't understand that but that's how it is.

Sure, this is an NFT collection that inscribed a couple of packages that are commonly used, https://twitter.com/OnChainMonkey/status/1668059991327248384. This came as a follow up on Recursive Inscriptions proposal, basically splitting the data over multiple inscriptions and reusing them, removing some of the limitation that they had. A flood of JS packages in transactions is probably about to happen so that they can use it in their HTML inscriptions.

As stated on news source i mentioned, it's 1.2TB per month. While it's still sufficient for many people or contribute to Bitcoin network by running full node while allowing incoming connection, it's definitely not true unlimited. And 1.2TB isn't a lot when it's used by family for zoom meeting and video streaming on almost daily basis with HD or higher resolution. For reference, since 2021 (when COVID happen and people work/study from home) there are 14% customer who use more than 1TB/month[1].


Example i mentioned is definitely extreme case. But since we're talking about 18TB, i would speculate he just collect every Linux ISO which is exist on internet. And i've seen few people claim they receive similar threat when they exceed 2TB of internet usage.


I agree running bittorent 24/7 is a somehow extreme for home user. But those throttle also apply when you download files with bittorrent protocol. And as reminder, there's etiquette to have at least 1.0 or 1:1 ratio (e.g. if you download 1GB, you should also upload 1GB)[2], although some people say 0.5 ratio is acceptable.


Which IMO isn't true unlimited or isn't what customer expect when they see term "unlimited" on their advertising.


Both of them could be stored elsewhere. But i'd say BRC-20 is worse since it create many TX and UTXO.


Do you mind sharing the link?

---

[1] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2021/02/internet-use-soared-throughout-2020-helping-isps-cash-in-on-data-caps/
[2] https://www.pcmag.com/how-to/how-to-use-bittorrent

It's not only about BRC-20 which is usually under 1kb, people are inscribing much bigger files (https://www.ord.io/?contentType=video) at the moment for no apparent reason. I've almost never seen someone storing their NFT's collection files on Ethereum, but ORD community seems to encourage doing that on bitcoin and consider it innovative. I've seen one of the communities celebrate inscribing some of their used node_module packages on bitcoin a few hours ago.

1.2 terabyte is alot for a single day. a DVD-R disc is about 5GB right? that's like downloading over 200 DVD movies or something in a single day. i'd say 99% of people don't have that type of need. shouldn't have that type of need and if they do then they're on the wrong plan. but if they do offer a truely unlimited plan as you say then that's what that is for i guess.

Homeboy downloaded about 18TB of data in one month and wonders why they threatened to cut him off. One mnth. 18 terabytes. you do the math. equals other people can't use their internet service because homeboy is downloading Linux ISO images like crazy. probably trying to sell them.

personal internet service is not really meant to do things like share torrents. lets say Joe tries to run bittorrent 24/7, then people all over the globe are going to be hitting him up for pieces of files. so what just happened is all those people became non-paying customers of Joe's ISP. they don't like that.

unlimited is only unlimited to the extent that you don't cause a problem with other paying customers or the ISP thinks you might be. then you're not on unlimited anymore. 

And depending on the limitation, i would classify it as predatory behavior. For example, there are few ISP which advertise their internet with claim unlimited usage but also do one of these,
1. Very strict data caps/FUP[1] before your speed is slowed down significantly. In my country, i've seen few ISP which offer 50 Mbps with only 300GB monthly FUP. Even comcast (one of ISP in USA) has 1.2TB limit and then offer actual unlimited plan[2].
2. Threaten to terminate their service for customer who use lots of data[3].
3. Attempt to throttle VPN and Torrent[5] connection.


Exactly. Based on one of LoyceV testing[6], you need fairly decent setup (4 core CPU, NVMe SSD and 16GB RAM, even though Bitcoin Core only configured to use ~6GB RAM) to fully sync pruned node in 22 hours.

[1] https://selectra.in/guides/fup
[2] https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/2020/11/comcasts-data-cap-finally-goes-nationwide-in-expansion-to-12-more-states/
[3] https://www.reddit.com/r/DataHoarder/comments/payvpu/new_isp_threatened_to_cut_off_my_connection/
[4] https://www.reddit.com/r/VPN/comments/5jmgv8/can_an_isp_detect_a_vpn_and_throttle_your/
[5] https://www.zdnet.com/article/is-your-internet-provider-throttling-bittorrent-traffic-find-out/
[6] https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.61714795

The problem is: downloading blockchain data is not all what you have to do, to be a full node. You also have to verify that data. Verification time is much bigger bottleneck than blockchain size.

Some time ago, I saw that in practice in some altcoin. It was CPU-based, and had only 2 GB chain, or something around that. However, downloading 500 GB of Bitcoin was faster than downloading 2 GB of this altcoin, just because they switched from SHA-256 to some ASIC-resistant, CPU-mineable hash function. Even worse, they did it not only in block headers, but just everywhere, in every single place, which means they also replaced it in Merkle Tree, in Script opcodes like OP_SHA256, and in all other places. Then, I learned why using lightweight hash function like SHA-256 is important. I saw their chainwork, when mining a single block header, and getting 50 coins, required computing around 1000 hashes. I saw how validating a Merkle Tree with depth of ten levels was as hard as mining the next block.

And then, coming back to Bitcoin, you can read about possible attacks, that can slow down verification. Plugging a lot of OP_CHECKSIG opcodes, executing hash functions multiple times, sending strange P2P messages with complex data, etc. If the whole problem would be only about downloading speed, then we could go further than from 1 MB to 4 MB. However, if bootstrapping a new node from a server running 24/7, with static IP, and good connections to other nodes, can take a week, then I know the problem is not only about bandwidth, because I can see that in practice, when I read logs from my server, and compare network usage with CPU and disk usage.

well a lot depends on block size.  If developers panic and go to 32mb blocks fast vs 2mb blocks now the downloads would be terrible.

Which is one good argument to no allow ordinals or any block spam at all.

I can do a 500gb download pretty fast.

Even a 1tb download is not bad.

I have been lazy and should do a new core download.