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Topic: (Ordinals) BRC-20 needs to be removed - page 3. (Read 7771 times)

member
Activity: 672
Merit: 16
Looking for guilt best look first into a mirror

At the end of the day Bitcoin is a payment system not a cloud storage. So whether they use the witness exploit to inject arbitrary data to the chain or OP_RETURN, it can be categorized as abuse and when it is done on a large scale we can call it spam.


Beg your pardon, when was the last time you used BTC and paid something with it?
BTC is slow and expensive.

It is time to moderate the Whitepaper. Bitcoin is not a payment vehicle any more.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
i don't consider OP_RETURN spam.
At the end of the day Bitcoin is a payment system not a cloud storage. So whether they use the witness exploit to inject arbitrary data to the chain or OP_RETURN, it can be categorized as abuse and when it is done on a large scale we can call it spam.

However, OP_RETURN is a tolerated and standardized abuse that bitcoiners came up with to prevent abusers from using output scripts to "inject data" into the chain and create unspendable UTXOs.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
That's a weird thing to say!
to be honest, i'm not really sure what all of these transactions are doing.

but here is an example one:
https://www.blockchain.com/explorer/transactions/btc/bb67d708c4d746ef8b73a01910f0ac5c2d92b68304c2c84cf41319272544b9bb

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A spam attack is a spam attack, some of them do more damage like the Ordinals Attack, some do less damage like the spam attack nearly a decade ago with the codename Stress Test; at the end of the day they are all categorized as spam attacks and are all damaging bitcoin.
we have to be careful when we don't even know what the purpose for which a transaction was done and yet we label it as "spam", "unwanted", etc.  i was referring specifically to all the thousands of transactions he linked to belonging to that one address. i don't know if they are ordinals or exactly what they are. so i wouldn't want to pass judgement on them yet.

but if you consider it abuse or spam then you know what to do. get segwit changed so that they can't do that kind of thing anymore. but good luck doing that. i don't think the developers care.

i consider ordinals spam. i don't consider OP_RETURN spam. anything trying to bypass the 80 byte limit of OP_RETURN by trying to use segwit and not only that but getting their data weighted as 1 vs 4, well that's definitely spam. Shocked

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 10611
to you maybe they are spamming the bitcoin network but to me it looks like they are supporting it.
That's a weird thing to say!

A spam attack is a spam attack, some of them do more damage like the Ordinals Attack, some do less damage like the spam attack nearly a decade ago with the codename Stress Test; at the end of the day they are all categorized as spam attacks and are all damaging bitcoin.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
That's like saying email spammers aren't abusing anything, they're just using the system as it was created. Allow me to rephrase your statement: "If you have a problem with email spam, then where were you when email was invented"?
email and bitcoin. two different things. i don't really need to explain why do i?  Shocked


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Blocks are filled for 90% with crap like this, created by an automated system and broadcasted in batches.

they are valid transactions and each one includes a transaction fee which is being paid.

Code:
Total received ‎153.85497287 BTC
Total sent ‎153.02784341 BTC
Balance ‎0.82712946 BTC $57,235

to you maybe they are spamming the bitcoin network but to me it looks like they are supporting it. maybe they should be using OP_RETURN instead of creating unspendable outputs but that's their perogative. we can't really tell people what to do. their transactions are none of our business.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
wait a minute though. Runes just uses OP_RETURN. There is no abuse going on there. OP_RETURN is a valid op code and it was approved through a reasonable process. if you have a problem with how people are using OP_RETURN then where were you when OP_RETURN was invented and put into use?
That's like saying email spammers aren't abusing anything, they're just using the system as it was created. Allow me to rephrase your statement: "If you have a problem with email spam, then where were you when email was invented"?

Blocks are filled for 90% with crap like this, created by an automated system and broadcasted in batches.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Have you looked at Mempool Goggles > Data recently? The spam continues. Maybe it moved from "Ordinals" to "Runes", but that's just a different name for the same scam.

wait a minute though. Runes just uses OP_RETURN. There is no abuse going on there. OP_RETURN is a valid op code and it was approved through a reasonable process. if you have a problem with how people are using OP_RETURN then where were you when OP_RETURN was invented and put into use? not complaining about it, i bet. don't worry about things that use OP_RETURN. they are not storing monkeys on chain.

runes is way different than ordinals. ordinals is an abusive use of something that wasn't even really approved through any reasonable process. we all know that... Shocked
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
Looks like the market is removing Ordinals itself. There is no real demand for this
Have you looked at Mempool Goggles > Data recently? The spam continues. Maybe it moved from "Ordinals" to "Runes", but that's just a different name for the same scam.
sr. member
Activity: 317
Merit: 448
Looks like the market is removing Ordinals itself. There is no real demand for this to the point it would clutter the blockchain it seems, so it's just a fad. Maybe in the future there are other use cases. For now those that want to play around with tokens are using centralized pretend-decentralized Solana, this is where all the memecoins happen nowadays, since ETH failed to do that themselves since it doesn't scale. Im just hoping no more nonsense is added on BTC. Just leave the money alone.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Also, don't be surprised if large multisigs will be discouraged in the future, and if there would be some kind of limit, to avoid spamming the chain with 1-of-3 multisigs, where you can achieve the same outcome by using a single public key with a single signature, and not even reveal the fact, that there are three keys involved.

i'm sure no one encourages something like 5 of 7 multisigs but 2 of 3 is quite standard and i can't see that ever being taken away. which makes something like bitcoin stamps pretty future proof. well thought out. unlike ordinals which are not well thought out.

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Yes, it is "the developers fault", but guess who created OP_CHECKMULTISIG, and who messed up with the stack, so it consumes one more stack element, than it should. Of course, bare multisig was created by Satoshi, early developers only made it standard, but miners could always use it in their non-standard transactions, since 2009. Which means, that if you want to "fix" it, then all you can do, is to improve it in a new version. But you cannot touch the old one, which is already deployed, because you don't want to mess up with existing outputs, which use OP_CHECKMULTISIG, and exist on-chain.

that's right. imagine that OP_CHECKMULTISIG became deprecated to the extent that very few nodes would accept a transaction of that type. that's when bitcoin becomes a scam. because then people couldn't easily spend existing utxos! developers need to be careful they don't veer bitcoin into the scam territory like that by always coming up with new toys that work "better" and telling people not to use the old ones...

obviously a better solution is to implement some feature once and do it right the first time. so that it never needs to be changed. i am sure people will say "easier said than done". as though that's an excuse to not adhere to that philosophy, anyhow. back to ordinals...


legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823

But you do realize that technically, no matter how stupid or "wrong" you may think they are, those users both pay for the transaction fees and they don't break the consensus rules.


That doesn't mean the consensus rules can't be changed Wink


A User Activated Soft Fork? Good luck, truly.

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my point was if everyone simply ignored what they were doing, then there wouldn't be a Streisand Effect that gave them the free marketing that they needed to help bootstrap their "projects".


I was truely amazed to see people here on Bitcointalk post they want to "check it out".


There will be the curious and the inquisitive, but in my opinion if it was merely ignored, there wouldn't be a Streisand Effect that accelerated curiosity more than it should be.

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I believe like Bitcoin itself, Casey Rodarmor opened a Pandora's Box, never to be closed. Shitcoinery in Bitcoin might be here to stay.


I'm kinda expecting people to get arrested over this at some point. This isn't 2017 anymore, when anyone could create an ICO and get rich from gullible people without consequences. Software developers are now being prosecuted. Add some money laundering to the NFT market and I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen.


Perhaps, but it won't stop the shitcoinery like it never stopped the shitcoinery in other blockchains.
copper member
Activity: 821
Merit: 1992
If you really just want something conditionally redeemable by one person or another, I would recommend the transaction type I recommend for reality keys:

Reality keys will reveal private key A if a true/false fact is true, and private key B if it's false.

Alice and Bob want to make a contract to hedge the outcome of a fact because they each have opposing short positions relative to the fact.  Alice will be paid if the fact is true, Bob will be paid if the fact is false.

Reality keys publishes the pubkey pairs  a := gA ; b := gB

Alice has private key X and corresponding pubkey x, Bob has private key Y and corresponding pubkey y.

Alice and Bob compute new pubkeys  q:=x+a  and r:=y+b  and they send their coins to a 1 of 2 multisig of those new pubkeys, q,r.

The values q,r are zero-knoweldge indistinguishable from a and b unless you know x and/or y, so no one except alice and bob, not even reality keys can tell which transaction on the network is mediated by the release of A vs B.

Later, realitykeys releases A or B,  lets say alice wins.  She computes a new private key X+A, and uses it to redeem the multisig.  Bob cannot redeem the multisig because he knows neither X or B.

This looks like a perfectly boring transaction to everyone else. Alice and Bob collectively cannot be robbed by a third party, though they could be held up or if realitykeys conspires with Alice or Bob then there could be cheating. This risk could be reduced by using a threshold of multiple observers— which this scheme naturally extends to.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
But you do realize that technically, no matter how stupid or "wrong" you may think they are, those users both pay for the transaction fees and they don't break the consensus rules.
That doesn't mean the consensus rules can't be changed Wink

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my point was if everyone simply ignored what they were doing, then there wouldn't be a Streisand Effect that gave them the free marketing that they needed to help bootstrap their "projects".
I was truely amazed to see people here on Bitcointalk post they want to "check it out".

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I believe like Bitcoin itself, Casey Rodarmor opened a Pandora's Box, never to be closed. Shitcoinery in Bitcoin might be here to stay.
I'm kinda expecting people to get arrested over this at some point. This isn't 2017 anymore, when anyone could create an ICO and get rich from gullible people without consequences. Software developers are now being prosecuted. Add some money laundering to the NFT market and I wouldn't be surprised to see this happen.
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469

No I won't. I'm not going to encourage that shit.
it's more well thought out than "ordinals" in my opinion plus it has a very limited data size. i dont see the point of storing tiny 20x20 pixel png images but that's about all it allows. how is that hurting anybody? plus it's paying non-segwit transaction fees. so it's not really abusing anything. i'm not recommending it but it's better than ordinals from a spam/network perspective.

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I don't care what they call it, all I see is on-chain spam.
start with ordinals and clean that up. then we can talk about less abusive things.

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Tell me: how many on-chain Bitcoin transactions have you made this year?
none.

Quote from: Wind_FURY
But you do realize that technically, no matter how stupid or "wrong" you may think they are, those users both pay for the transaction fees and they don't break the consensus rules.
i realize that. the problem is not with the users. the problem is with the particular consensus rule that didn't really undergo enough scrutiny before they just unleashed it. you're going to give a single transaction UNLIMITED size capability up to the entire block size and not only that but you also will let the data be weighted as 1 weight unit per byte rather than the standard 4 weight units per byte. how is that not going to end in disaster?




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I believe like Bitcoin itself, Casey Rodarmor opened a Pandora's Box, never to be closed. Shitcoinery in Bitcoin might be here to stay.
it sure seems like it. i'm not sure who would want it though. but i guess the community wants it otherwise they would get rid of it right? or at least the developers want it. i'm not too impressed with whoever developed taproot and thought it was a good idea that the witness data could be unlimited in size.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823


Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them.

you do realize that these people storing data using ordinals are getting a 75% discount on their fees. i disagree with that. if they were paying the full fee that might be different. but even then, obviously it is nice if you limit how much data can be stored per transaction. there's a precedent for doing that you know...


But you do realize that technically, no matter how stupid or "wrong" you may think they are, those users both pay for the transaction fees and they don't break the consensus rules. It's your right to have an opinion/disagreement, as it is their right to have their opinion/disagreement. BUT my point was if everyone simply ignored what they were doing, then there wouldn't be a Streisand Effect that gave them the free marketing that they needed to help bootstrap their "projects".

I believe like Bitcoin itself, Casey Rodarmor opened a Pandora's Box, never to be closed. Shitcoinery in Bitcoin might be here to stay.
hero member
Activity: 882
Merit: 792
Watch Bitcoin Documentary - https://t.ly/v0Nim
Everyone is still debating whether it should or shouldn't be "banned"? It's too late in my opinion.

Personally, and as everyone has already noticed from my posting history about Ordinals, BRC-20, and Runes, I am agnostic about them and/or what's being built with them. But for those Bitcoiners who continue talking about it because they hate it, I believe they should study the Streisand Effect. Those people actually did all the "marketing" that Ordinals needed to bootstrap the project. If they ignored it, then everyone would have ignored it/it wouldn't have a lot of attention.
It's not really debatable. If we read the Bitcoin whitepaper and respect it, then we can say that Bitcoin purely p2p version of electronic cash that allows us to send money from one party to another. Ordinals simply is the opposite of Bitcoin. Ordinals simply are data attached to an individual satoshi, this is clearly not an electronic version of cash and this is clearly not used for p2p money transfer. So, fundamentally and from every aspect, ordinals ruin the functionality of Bitcoin as an electronic version of cash and as a p2p payment method.

As Warren Buffet said: "Don't invest in something you don't understand". That doesn't really work for the FOMO-people.
That's debatable but for the majority of people, it's a good advice.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
take a look: ~
No I won't. I'm not going to encourage that shit.

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it looks like we have about half a million bitcoin stamps so far. have they impacted the bitcoin network at all? is anyone complaining about them?
I don't care what they call it, all I see is on-chain spam.

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pay a little extra and do it the right way. of course, that's easier said than done for the cheapos. who are worried about how much it is going to cost...
Tell me: how many on-chain Bitcoin transactions have you made this year?
sr. member
Activity: 1190
Merit: 469
Yes, I do, and I'm honestly curious why you don't think that either. There are people out there willing to trade $2M for a satoshi, and you think it's difficult for them to slightly change their protocol?
take a look: https://stampchain.io

it looks like we have about half a million bitcoin stamps so far. have they impacted the bitcoin network at all? is anyone complaining about them?

people that use the blockchain properly are always welcome to do so. and their transactions will not be pruned out of peoples' nodes like a piece of garbage needing to be discarded into the nearest trash can. you really do get what you pay for.  Cool

pay a little extra and do it the right way. of course, that's easier said than done for the cheapos. who are worried about how much it is going to cost...

oh thats right, that's why they use segwit so they can store a large amount of data for less. as though that makes any sense that people would want them doing that. just saying.
legendary
Activity: 1512
Merit: 7340
Farewell, Leo
but clearly you believe that banning ordinals would result in a mad rush on using something like bitcoin stamps that's very clear from how you've been talking here.
Yes, I do, and I'm honestly curious why you don't think that either. There are people out there willing to trade $2M for a satoshi, and you think it's difficult for them to slightly change their protocol?

as long as they are not allowed to store data without limit and hog up the entire block AND get a 75% discount on the size of their data, they can do whatever they want to.
Nice of you who's being permissive.  Roll Eyes

OP_CHECKMULTISIG was explicitly designed to allow people to do multisig transactions. where is the opcode and bip for ordinals? that's right. there is none. big difference.
Bitcoin was explicitly designed for peer-to-peer transactions. Where is the BIP that proposes using centralized exchanges and forfeiting custody when using bitcoin? Oh, right. People have the freedom to choose how to use it.
legendary
Activity: 3290
Merit: 16489
Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021
The scam market where these junks are being pumped and dumped and the people's greed thinking they can make a lot of money buying garbage advertised it not what people say about it on the internet. In fact I can bet that majority of those newbies who have been buying these don't even read what we're saying about them. Wink
As Warren Buffet said: "Don't invest in something you don't understand". That doesn't really work for the FOMO-people.
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