Our response to Dmytri Kleiner's misunderstanding of money

ryann

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Quote from: Spaceman_Spiff on November 16, 2012, 03:57:49 AM

Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 09:28:19 PM

There will never be reversable transactions.

Well I can imagine there being created a service with legal authority that registers transactions between 'state-registered' addresses that are linked to an individual, or something similar. Just because you don't see the solution to certain problems does not mean somebody else can't come up with one.
And like Roger said, escrow is an option too.

Good luck with that. Escrow just to exchange money lol. Real legit

Rudd-O

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Quote from: lebing on November 16, 2012, 11:25:57 PM

When did this thread devolve into a red scare circle jerk Huh

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/digitalcontent/images/commies27feb2008-1-tm.jpg

I find that picture hilarious, because open source (by subverting copyright's goal of monopolizing knowledge and turning it upside down) is probably the most fantastic example of a peaceful market of individual actors, working together for interests mutually aligned, in entirely voluntary non-coercive interactions. I love free software -- and free culture in general -- because it embodies voluntaryism. :-)

Government-welfare-queen monopolist Microsoft, on the other hand...

MoonShadow

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Quote from: lebing on November 16, 2012, 11:25:57 PM

When did this thread devolve into a red scare circle jerk Huh

If the reds don't git'cha...

http://activelydisengaged.com/actively-disengaged-7-keep-looking-over-there/

lebing

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Enabling the maximal migration

When did this thread devolve into a red scare circle jerk Huh

Rudd-O

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Quote from: evoorhees on November 14, 2012, 05:30:00 PM

Hehehe yeah it's important to point out the gun in the room. The irony is that most socialists/leftists are very much opposed to guns, yet their ideology requires institutionalized violent threat via gun.

It's it's very literal in another sense: only if you can't defend yourself from guns, are you ready for the enslavement that socialists want for you. Socialists saying "guns are bad" suddenly makes sense when you understand what they are not saying: "...except in our rulers' hands".

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 09:28:19 PM

The economy has nothing to do with the difficulty in obtaining bitcoins.

So the services that give you bitcoins have nothing to do with how you get bitcoins?

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 09:28:19 PM

There will never be reversable transactions.

Well I can imagine there being created a service with legal authority that registers transactions between 'state-registered' addresses that are linked to an individual, or something similar. Just because you don't see the solution to certain problems does not mean somebody else can't come up with one.
And like Roger said, escrow is an option too.

Roger_Murdock

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No one will ever use cash because you can't do reversible transactions. And it's too bad no one has invented the concept of escrow.

TheButterZone

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RIP Mommy

Feature, not bug.

ryann

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Quote from: Spaceman_Spiff on November 15, 2012, 08:54:29 PM

Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 05:14:20 PM

You arent being realistic at all. I dont hate bitcoin and dong care for it either so im not biased whatsoever. Bitcoin is difficult to get compared to fiat money. You have no guarantee that you will even get the coins after you purchase them and there is nothing you can do about it if someone decides to rip you off. Im not talking about trasnfering my coins to a wallet. Thats simple and means nothing becausey ou already have the coins. So pelase tell me what happens whne you purchase coins and dont receive them? Do just go complain on a forum? Pretty much all you can do.

Bitcoin has only existed for less than 4 years, with very little people knowing about it in the beginning (and still), did you really expect there to be an entire foolproof service package and legal system to be built around it already?

As time goes on it will become more and more clear which services are reliable businesses in it for the long haul, and which ones are scammers that want to make some quick bucks. Moreover, as the economy groes bigger, it should get easier and easier to get bitcoins, with lower fees and smaller spreads.

The economy has nothing to do with the difficulty in obtaining bitcoins. There will never be reversable transactions.

Spaceman_Spiff

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Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 05:14:20 PM

You arent being realistic at all. I dont hate bitcoin and dong care for it either so im not biased whatsoever. Bitcoin is difficult to get compared to fiat money. You have no guarantee that you will even get the coins after you purchase them and there is nothing you can do about it if someone decides to rip you off. Im not talking about trasnfering my coins to a wallet. Thats simple and means nothing becausey ou already have the coins. So pelase tell me what happens whne you purchase coins and dont receive them? Do just go complain on a forum? Pretty much all you can do.

Bitcoin has only existed for less than 4 years, with very little people knowing about it in the beginning (and still), did you really expect there to be an entire foolproof service package and legal system to be built around it already?

As time goes on it will become more and more clear which services are reliable businesses in it for the long haul, and which ones are scammers that want to make some quick bucks. Moreover, as the economy groes bigger, it should get easier and easier to get bitcoins, with lower fees and smaller spreads.

ryann

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Quote from: Roger_Murdock on November 15, 2012, 02:52:28 PM

Of course, to the extent that it IS "difficult and expensive to buy bitcoins," the problem is entirely on the side of the legacy payment systems. Thus, it would be more accurate to say "it's difficult and expensive to transact with fiat." And that's precisely why Bitcoin will be successful. I remember, when I first got into Bitcoin, having to figure out how to send an international wire transaction. It was kind of a pain. It cost me 45 bucks to send a thousand. And it was like three days before the money was credited to my newly-created Mt. Gox account. After purchasing my bitcoins, it took me about ten seconds to transfer them to my personal wallet. At a cost of less than a penny. Those contrasting experiences really drove it home for me. It's like the Berlin wall. The barriers aren't really there to keep you out of Bitcoinland. They're really to keep you locked in Fiatville. And like the Berlin wall, they're ultimately doomed to fail.

You arent being realistic at all. I dont hate bitcoin and dong care for it either so im not biased whatsoever. Bitcoin is difficult to get compared to fiat money. You have no guarantee that you will even get the coins after you purchase them and there is nothing you can do about it if someone decides to rip you off. Im not talking about trasnfering my coins to a wallet. Thats simple and means nothing becausey ou already have the coins. So pelase tell me what happens whne you purchase coins and dont receive them? Do just go complain on a forum? Pretty much all you can do.

Roger_Murdock

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Of course, to the extent that it IS "difficult and expensive to buy bitcoins," the problem is entirely on the side of the legacy payment systems. Thus, it would be more accurate to say "it's difficult and expensive to transact with fiat." And that's precisely why Bitcoin will be successful. I remember, when I first got into Bitcoin, having to figure out how to send an international wire transaction. It was kind of a pain. It cost me 45 bucks to send a thousand. And it was like three days before the money was credited to my newly-created Mt. Gox account. After purchasing my bitcoins, it took me about ten seconds to transfer them to my personal wallet. At a cost of less than a penny. Those contrasting experiences really drove it home for me. It's like the Berlin wall. The barriers aren't really there to keep you out of Bitcoinland. They're really to keep you locked in Fiatville. And like the Berlin wall, they're ultimately doomed to fail.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 02:17:59 PM

Quote from: Technomage on November 15, 2012, 02:06:54 PM

Not all methods of buying bitcoins have that many middlemen. LocalBitcoins is a site that has users in 86 countries and over 400 cities. It's a free to use platform that makes it easier to have face to face meetings and exchange bitcoins and local currencies. It's also way more anonymous than using the exchanges.

I primarily use exchanges but I do use LocalBitcoins as well. It's a good site.

https://localbitcoins.com/

Then I have to meet some random person who knows that Ill have a bunch of money on me face to face. That usualy works out well :S

Do it in a public venue; preferably one with free wifi & many distractions, such as a bowling ally at league night. BTW, a bowling ally locker rental is an excellent place (besides a bank safe deposit box) to store important things small enough to put into a bowling bag. It's a good idea to keep some of your backups in a place that would still be accessible in the event of a bank holiday. Even better if you happen to like to bowl.

MoonShadow

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Quote from: ryann on November 15, 2012, 01:56:16 PM

Its starting to sound like you dont understand how to purchase bitcoins. You cant just buy bitcoins without going through at least 2 types of exchanges. Minimum being Bank wire > MTGox

While that may be your experience, I've literally never bought bitcoins on an exchange of any kind. I actually predate MtGox, but only by a little, and as of yet have not been forced to use a bank transfer of any kind to aquire bitcoins, so I know for a fact that it is possible to buy bitcoins entirely outside of the current financial structure if you are both patient & determined.

ryann

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Quote from: Technomage on November 15, 2012, 02:06:54 PM

Not all methods of buying bitcoins have that many middlemen. LocalBitcoins is a site that has users in 86 countries and over 400 cities. It's a free to use platform that makes it easier to have face to face meetings and exchange bitcoins and local currencies. It's also way more anonymous than using the exchanges.

I primarily use exchanges but I do use LocalBitcoins as well. It's a good site.

https://localbitcoins.com/

Then I have to meet some random person who knows that Ill have a bunch of money on me face to face. That usualy works out well :S

Technomage

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Affordable Physical Bitcoins - Denarium.com

Not all methods of buying bitcoins have that many middlemen. LocalBitcoins is a site that has users in 86 countries and over 400 cities. It's a free to use platform that makes it easier to have face to face meetings and exchange bitcoins and local currencies. It's also way more anonymous than using the exchanges.

I primarily use exchanges but I do use LocalBitcoins as well. It's a good site.

https://localbitcoins.com/

ryann

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Quote from: TheButterZone on November 14, 2012, 03:39:32 PM

Quote from: ryann on November 14, 2012, 02:26:00 PM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: ryann on November 14, 2012, 12:56:42 AM

Quote from: TheButterZone on November 14, 2012, 12:24:51 AM

I have a credit card and paypal but I cant buy coins at the going rate. That there is the biggest hindrence. != Liquidity.

This forum is more worried about trying to correct people and show how intelligent they are than any other forum ive seen. If you read my post you'll fully understand. It is pretty straight forward regardless of me saying liquidity or illiquidity. ~~Its a liquidity issue~~.

People aren't trying to show how smart they are, they're just trying to be specific about the language because it makes communication easier. There are already enough tough concepts to master without the definitions being mixed up.

That said, liquidity is a special term that's reserved for some other meaning. It's something along the lines of "the number of transactions per second under various conditions".

A more likely cause of your complaint (high prices) is lack of competition. There are not enough vendors willing to make Bitcoin-Paypal transactions, so the ones that do exist charge excessive fees. Maybe they've even formed a cartel?

It's the same when I try to do forex transactions. I go on oanda.com or some other such site, and see all these fantastic exchange rates. However, when I want to actually make such a transaction using a bank, they skim a huge percentage and then have the gall to charge a 'transaction fee' on top of the massive fee they already charged!

No, high prices is not a bitcoin problem. Illiquidity is. Its to hard to get coins. You need to go through to many middlemen just to make a simple purchase.

Please elaborate on "too many middlemen". Sounds like a case of "you're doing it wrong".

Its starting to sound like you dont understand how to purchase bitcoins. You cant just buy bitcoins without going through at least 2 types of exchanges. Minimum being Bank wire > MTGox

Roger_Murdock

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Quote from: evoorhees on November 14, 2012, 05:30:00 PM

Hehehe yeah it's important to point out the gun in the room. The irony is that most socialists/leftists are very much opposed to guns, yet their ideology requires institutionalized violent threat via gun.

Yep, but I'm not sure it's ironic. In fact, I think it explains socialist opposition to our owning guns pretty well.

evoorhees

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Democracy is the original 51% attack

Quote from: Roger_Murdock on November 14, 2012, 04:51:00 PM

Quote from: evoorhees on November 14, 2012, 04:05:35 PM

Quote from: Roger_Murdock on November 13, 2012, 06:57:49 AM

This is why I always say that I have no problem with socialism ... so long as it's voluntary. It seems to work reasonably well at the level of a family or small tribal community. It just doesn't scale (and it should never be forcibly imposed by the threat of violence).

Socialism cannot be voluntary. It requires coercion. If you have people "giving" and "sharing" with each other voluntarily, that is not socialism... it's liberty.

Libertarians are never opposed to individuals choosing to live in whatever way they wish, so long as they don't aggression against each other. I assume most people would end up living in "profit seeking" ways, but surely some people would form communes or any other structure they wanted. All of this is liberty, and is the opposite of socialism, which is a forced structure.

I don't disagree with that from the perspective of "what is the technical definition of socialism?" My point is more rhetorical. For obvious reasons, socialists aren't eager to acknowledge the coercion inherent in their political system. They want to make a socialist society sound like it's one big happy family. I'm trying to point out the gun in the room.

Hehehe yeah it's important to point out the gun in the room. The irony is that most socialists/leftists are very much opposed to guns, yet their ideology requires institutionalized violent threat via gun.

Topic: Our response to Dmytri Kleiner's misunderstanding of money (Read 7078 times)