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Topic: [OUTDATED] The Lightning Network FAQ - page 3. (Read 3266 times)

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823

Words, "chainhash", more words.


Are you telling everyone in the forum to trust your word, and not the LN developers' word? Wouldn't your word make the LN developers, scammers?

Because I encourage the newbies to trust you, and learn about Bitcoin. The hard way. Cool
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
HTLC contracts are not bitcoin transactions that broadcast to the btc network

By design.  It would somewhat defeat the purpose of it being off-chain if they were broadcast to the blockchain.  They're still not IOUs.  A commitment transaction is more binding than an IOU.

The clue is in the name.  That's why they call it a "commitment transaction" and not an "owed transaction", or a "promised transaction".

1. not being broadcast is the point. people need to realise that until its settled on a blockchain using a proper/native bitcoin transaction, not a HTLC, the balance is temporary and can get lost because people can go offline and lose their HTLC (even LN dev's admit this flaw) thus lose where they stand and how much who owes who what
(its why they envision watch towers and factories to middleman manage the IOU's)

2. a HTLC is measured in Msats
thus even if it was a really secured lock "commitment" (as you call it) is not final/milestone/explicit/settled
p.s HTLC is Hashed Time Lock Contract. i see you subtly trying to slide in a new buzzword 'commitment' but it didnt work
trying to avoid things like agreements, promises by then throwing in a new word to push the conversation further out. doesnt main the basic definition/function of a HTLC any different

its meaningless because what the contract represents is just a peg to real bitcoins. all a HTLC does is let users know a balance of who owes who what amount of collateral, without actually moving, involving the collateral... in short its just a tally of temporary position/temporary tally of who owes who what
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
HTLC contracts are not bitcoin transactions that broadcast to the btc network

By design.  It would somewhat defeat the purpose of it being off-chain if they were broadcast to the blockchain.  They're still not IOUs.  A commitment transaction is more binding than an IOU.

The clue is in the name.  That's why they call it a "commitment transaction" and not an "owed transaction", or a "promised transaction".
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 26, 2019, 03:23:19 AM
#99
there is no bitcoin in the lightning network

ok lets word it a way you would appreciate.
you yourself believe that the btc network is the bitcoin network and all other networks are just altcoins that try to borrow/fake the name.
so under your own bias you have to accept that LN using Msats that do not broadcast to the BTC network. are a non blockchain crypto network of pegged coins.

Msats are not bitcoins

now windfury.
i gave up trying to tell you about code like "chainhash" because it appears your not a coder to be able to read it
i gave up trying to tell you about devs flaw admissions because it appears you cant be bothered to watch their videos
i gave up trying to tell you about analogies because it appears your imagination cant concieve any comparisons

so please if you want to continue your rhetoric. atleast use LN
i find it so strange you are so devoted to promote and defend it, jet show little to no knowledge about it.
all you keep doing is repeating things you dont know and then just imply "wrong coz franky said it" which is lame

so please atleast learn about what your trying to promote/devote your time to. because you help no one

in short
Msats are the pegged token. they are not tokens recognised by the btc network
HTLC contracts are not bitcoin transactions that broadcast to the btc network
HTLC contracts are private, temporary and UNSETTLED agreements of who owes who what. the very definitition of an IOU
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 26, 2019, 12:20:06 AM
#98
"In Lightning, not one user "deposited" Bitcoins to another party, and then issued with a worthless token. They are actually signed Bitcoin transactions made by both participants of the channel that can be broadcasted and included in a block in a later time. It's actually a smart contract between two parties."

Words


Your debate never showed, or proven to anyone that the Bitcoins in the Lightning Network are "pegged promises to pay IOU tokens". You are throwing anything to the wall to see what sticks. There's nothing.
legendary
Activity: 1806
Merit: 1828
May 25, 2019, 07:12:26 PM
#97
Is it just me or has there been way less enthusiasm for Lightning in the past 1 or 2 months?

    I suspect that a good portion of people involved in BTC are either HODL's or traders. I don't see why a HODLer would think it is a good idea to wrap up much funds in LN, since it involves keeping funds in a hot wallet. Also, I am not aware of any major exchanges coming on board. If a few of them do, I can see lightning as an excellent way to arb. However, I think coming up with an easy way to handle the channels may be a challenge for a major exchange at this time.
full member
Activity: 123
Merit: 474
May 25, 2019, 06:45:37 PM
#96
Is it just me or has there been way less enthusiasm for Lightning in the past 1 or 2 months?
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 24, 2019, 12:43:05 PM
#95
"In Lightning, not one user "deposited" Bitcoins to another party, and then issued with a worthless token. They are actually signed Bitcoin transactions made by both participants of the channel that can be broadcasted and included in a block in a later time. It's actually a smart contract between two parties."

this statement above does not show how LN works, but is just a wishy washy mashup of it kinda does this and kinda doesnt do that, all squeezed into a paragraph to basically mean nothing at all in complete context

you keep using things that make many random points that dont disprove anything as your counter to single items.
but lets try separating and individualising and translating the statement

1. in lightning no one user "deposited" Bitcoins to another party
 a. LN is a separate network. it has no blockchain. thus no bitcoin (unless you believe bitcoin can exist on multiple networks)
 b. lightning uses Msats, bitcoins remain on the bitcoin network(blockchain locked). no bitcoin is deposited to LN
 c. lightning channels are multiuser, bitcoins are locked into a multisig
 d. its not about 100% single user control

2. and then issued with a worthless token
 a. LN channels use Msats which is a token that is NOT recognised by the bitcoin network
 b. worthless/worth, is in the eye of the beholder. msats are not community audited, value is agreed between channel parties
 c. channels of Msats can be setup, agreed where collateral can be coinbase balance, altcoins, or anything human agreed

3. They are actually signed bitcoin transactions.
 a. CLTV multisigs are bitcoin recognised transactions. HTLC smartcontracts are LN payments. . learn the difference
 b. eltoo factories dont give channels the CLTV. just HTLC. its the factory(Server) that later signs a CLTV
 c. HTLC do no broadcast, are not measured in btc/sats and who owes what changes often without settlement

3c. understand it. if you have a 'agreement' of who owes who what. but its not settled. the the value is still owed. and all the agreement is, is a tally of who owes who what. the very definition of an IOU

seriously windfury. get out of the echo chamber of words and social drama.
learn the actual function of LN by using it. reading CODE,
please atleast just use LN before ever making another post concerning LN. then you can have a more practical discussion
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 21, 2019, 01:47:36 AM
#94

bit refill go into detail about msats vs sats.. i dare you
by this i also mean the detail of cltv vs htlc.. i dare you


I'm stealing a quote from amishmanish's post on page 3, https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.50781071

No, Bitcoin is not "superior" to purchase "any goods imaginable". The most efficient way to pay for most goods is simply by fiat, in electronic form like credit/debit cards, or its physical form in the form of cash.
he actually thinks people should stick with fiat (facepalm). let me guess he thinks bitcoin is not digital cash but LN's Msats are? as its very apparent h feels bitcoin is not a viable currency and how only LN's token can do the job


I replied to the original thread. Do not derail this topic.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 20, 2019, 03:47:30 AM
#93
bit refill go into detail about msats vs sats.. i dare you
by this i also mean the detail of cltv vs htlc.. i dare you

dont blanket over the details. actually explain how LN functions in the process of
locking funds onchain.
how LN as a separate network decides what/when/if a locked funds tx is valid
then explain how the LN part of 'pushing' payment occurs. including what denomination/tokn is used and if that denomination/token is broadcastable.

dont try skimming and hiding and ignoring the difference between htlc and cltv. dont try to make it sound like only cltv are ever handled.
actually explain it fully.
remember to explain how if there is magic that only permits 6confirm locks to be collateral. how your system breaks the magic to allow 0 confirm collateral, or where users can buy in using coinbase balance/altcoins.
or you can admit there is no magic and that channel partners can agree to whatever they like as the contract/iou is btwen them and only them(no community audit of LN agreement)

too many people only talk about the on-offramp in and out of bitcoin for small case scenario of bitcoin utopian utility in setting up/closing channels. but everyone is missing the point of this topic. which is about LN specifically. not the bitcoin on/offramp


anyway.. for those wondering if windfury even cares about bitcoin. or is just a core kiss ass... here's windfry's opinion on bitcoin
No, Bitcoin is not "superior" to purchase "any goods imaginable". The most efficient way to pay for most goods is simply by fiat, in electronic form like credit/debit cards, or its physical form in the form of cash.
he actually thinks people should stick with fiat (facepalm). let me guess he thinks bitcoin is not digital cash but LN's Msats are? as its very apparent h feels bitcoin is not a viable currency and how only LN's token can do the job
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 20, 2019, 01:17:11 AM
#92
He's memefied. Haha.

But for the sake of the newbies, let's bring Bitrefill in here and explain how Thor Turbo actually works in more detail, and to explain in layman's terms, and how it's good for Lightning users and Bitcoin. Cool
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
May 19, 2019, 06:30:59 AM
#91
I have also got in contact with someone from Bitrefill. He said that you are nothing but a fudster. But I'll ask their representative in the forum to explain how Thor Turbo works

Their post here explains things pretty succinctly.  And given that Lightning now forms what I would assume is a fairly integral part of their business model and they use it on a daily basis, no one seems to have felt the overwhelming compulsion to tell them that they need to do more research.  Funny, that.   Wink
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 19, 2019, 03:51:29 AM
#90
I'm arrogant for calling out your lies and misinformation? Haha.

I have also got in contact with someone from Bitrefill. He said that you are nothing but a fudster. But I'll ask their representative in the forum to explain how Thor Turbo works and memefy you. Again.

But newbies, listen to franky1 and learn. The hard way. Cool
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 18, 2019, 04:58:26 AM
#89
Can you do a demo that can show us that we don't need a confirmation to fund a channel in Lightning? It would help this topic.

THOR TURBO
https://www.bitrefill.com/thor-turbo-channels/?hl=en
Quote
Turbo-charge your Lightning channels

We are proud to announce a new version of our Thor Lightning channel service utilizing a new feature called "turbo channels". Turbo channels allow anyone to instantly access the Lightning Network, through Bitrefill's nodes, with a bitcoin balance that's immediately spendable, removing any wait times associated with transaction confirmations.

How does it work?

You purchase a Lightning channel from us that comes with a total capacity, just like in the basic Thor product. But it also has a pre-funded balance in it, on your side, that you can spend instantly - without waiting for any confirmations.




you already been told about this several times, ..
dont be ignorant/arrogant. try to research instead

https://blog.bitrefill.com/the-hottest-lightning-network-tech-features-for-2019-and-beyond-dbaaac6ddfa4
Quote
Channel Factories

Channel factories are designed to reduce the on-chain transactions needed for each channel, which may not be a major difference in isolated cases but can add up when applied to the entire network. They could further raise the upper limit of transactions by acting as sub-channels for the entire network.

With channel factories, users would be able to create an essentially infinite number of channels with no need for further transactions on the chain. This could substantially increase the efficiency of the Lightning Network.
legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 18, 2019, 01:58:33 AM
#88
I can set up a Lightning node, connect to another Lightning node, and fund a channel without an on-chain transaction?

if the other party agree's to it yes


Is the agreement opt-in only in the Lightning Network?

Quote

remembr this simple fact.
when you set up a channel. that channel is NOT relayed around the network to have the community verify it.
its just a private agreement between you and someone else.


Incorrect. As how Lightning works, a confirmation is required when funding a channel.

Quote

its how channls can be st up where the collateral is things like coinbase database balance (not a blockchain)
people can decide their own agreement of collateral


I'm confused. What are you talking about?

Quote

again you really need to start atleast using lightning and learning about it if you really want to get involved in conversations about it.
i still find it strange how you get involved in things you dont know or never used. its like you are just interested in the social drama you can cause.


No, it's you. You love the social drama. "Because Core, because Core, because Core, they are evil bwaaahh!, they want small blocks, bwaah!"

Quote

please try learning about LN. and not the utopian perfect condition hype. but the actual usage and issues and limitations it comes with.


Can you do a demo that can show us that we don't need a confirmation to fund a channel in Lightning? It would help this topic.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
May 18, 2019, 01:43:22 AM
#87
I can set up a Lightning node, connect to another Lightning node, and fund a channel without an on-chain transaction?

if the other party agree's to it yes
the 'collateral' of a channel does not have to be bitcoin.

remembr this simple fact.
when you set up a channel. that channel is NOT relayed around the network to have the community verify it.
its just a private agreement between you and someone else.

its how channls can be st up where the collateral is things like coinbase database balance (not a blockchain)
people can decide their own agreement of collateral

I can host a poker party where we play for matchsticks, but it wouldn't have any negative impact on the other poker games where they're playing for money.  What's your point?  You clearly aren't going to be able to settle to the Bitcoin blockchain if you modify your client to do this, so stop lying about Lightning supposedly enabling fractional reserve when it doesn't.
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 17, 2019, 07:32:15 AM
#86
I can set up a Lightning node, connect to another Lightning node, and fund a channel without an on-chain transaction?

if the other party agree's to it yes
the 'collateral' of a channel does not have to be bitcoin.

remembr this simple fact.
when you set up a channel. that channel is NOT relayed around the network to have the community verify it.
its just a private agreement between you and someone else.

its how channls can be st up where the collateral is things like coinbase database balance (not a blockchain)
people can decide their own agreement of collateral

again you really need to start atleast using lightning and learning about it if you really want to get involved in conversations about it.
i still find it strange how you get involved in things you dont know or never used. its like you are just interested in the social drama you can cause.

please try learning about LN. and not the utopian perfect condition hype. but the actual usage and issues and limitations it comes with.

legendary
Activity: 2898
Merit: 1823
May 17, 2019, 06:15:23 AM
#85

seems microlancer is sidestepping the LN flaws to only talk about LN in utopian conditions.
its similar to saying banks cannot be robbed because an ATM requires a card, pin number and has a $500 limit
(totally ignoring the big picture outside standard practical/utopian use of banking)


He is not. Those are facts you have repeatedly been denying.

Quote

LN channel partners can agree to a channel without needing a locked bitcoin network transaction (CLTV)


I can set up a Lightning node, connect to another Lightning node, and fund a channel without an on-chain transaction?
legendary
Activity: 4410
Merit: 4766
May 16, 2019, 05:08:05 PM
#84
seems microlancer is sidestepping the LN flaws to only talk about LN in utopian conditions.
its similar to saying banks cannot be robbed because an ATM requires a card, pin number and has a $500 limit
(totally ignoring the big picture outside standard practical/utopian use of banking)


LN channel partners can agree to a channel without needing a locked bitcoin network transaction (CLTV)
its how turbo and factories are concepted
the unit of measure in a channel(HTLC) is MSats.
HTLC using Msats cannot be broadcast to bitcoins blockchain
Msats can represent any value. whether it be a calculated btc balance, a coinbase mysql fiat balance or a pre agreed private value between the 2 parties

LN is not a community protocol. it has no global consensus. users can set up thier own rules and protocols between themselves. this is why LN is so fluid with all the different things being tried out like eltoo, factories. because they can play around with things privately, in small groups, etc.

i can re-write my node to accept or decline whatever i like.
hero member
Activity: 1438
Merit: 513
May 14, 2019, 04:24:06 PM
#83

Now, I have to get back to writing code. Have a nice day!

Thanks for dropping in Tim! Very educational Smiley even for me xD


Yes, thank you for explaining it like you did, Tim, whoever you are. I wish I was as eloquent, and as smart as you. But I am not a coder.

Whyfhy, sorry, but I have tried to explain it with the most detail as my stupid brain can explain it in the past. But sometimes it becomes like talking to flat-earthers who deny the truth. I hope smarter people in the community would drop by, and post more and memefy the deniers of the truth. Cool
Your fine,  this turned into a "Infrequently" asked questionable debate. Now I think we can get this topic back on track. P.S. i brought Tim here to squash it , he's my LN FAQ guy. and a great teacher.
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