Topic: P2P Cash or Settlement Layer? - page 2. (Read 2612 times)

I wanted to know if my view is correct; that's why I asked if you agreed. How about listing some features that are present in a settlement layer so that we can compare? As far as the trade-offs are concerned, I'm not sure. We might experience increased on-chain fees.

Of course I agree.

Bitcoin can currently be used as P2P Cash.

However as the network grows from 2 million users to 20 million... there are engineering choices to be made which could change some of these qualities. There will be trade-offs between speed, cost, simplicity, fungibility, etc...

That's what this thread is about.

1) Correct. Bitcoin is censorship resistant.
2) Correct. Owning the private key is everything that is needed.
3) They current are (fees have an unknown/undecided future).
4) Somewhat fungible (unknown?).
5) Correct.

Correct.

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Do you agree with my statements?

Cash is king.  Settlement implies its not trustless.

Actually.. thinking a bit more about this.. if Bitcoin can become good money... that is if it can perform effectively the 3 traditional functions of money (store of value, medium of exchange, unit of account) it will have to be as easy to exchange as cash and as hard to confiscate or devalue as gold.

I think the most important feature has to be a settlement network, the "new gold" approach is in my book the one that we have to focus on, before we can pretend to compete against centralized systems like VISA.

If we are going to compete against centralized systems like VISA, we must deliver something that makes it worth using for the average user. I think, the fact that anyone can start sending and receiving money without any consent, is a big advantage we will always have against our competition when it comes to the goal of making Bitcoin a worlwide used currency with millions of transactions per second. The work done by Blockstream in this matter is excellent and im looking forward to it.

OK... let me give it a shot:

-Cash: A token of value used for exchange. eg: a coin.
-Digital cash: A digital token of value used for exchange. eg: 1 BTC
-P2P Cash: A form of cash in which the token's value does not require a third party to the exchange.


However the above definitions refer to bitcoins as the units of value or tokens in a cash system... but for the Bitcoin Network to be an effective P2P Cash transmission system which can be used in a way analogous to how we use physical coins and notes today face to face... it would need to have certain characteristics:

-Open, permissionless system. If you have the token, you can use it.
-Mere Possession of the token is enough. No extra proof is required.
-Payments are simple, fast and have low transaction costs.
-Tokens are fungible.
-Payments are irreversible and final.

...and for it to be P2P:
-Only the voluntary interaction of the 2 parties to a transaction is required. No third party can block the transaction.

Except that its being "re-engineered" every single day already. There are developers already working on changing Bitcoin right this minute.

People keep saying that yet nobody provided a single definition of P2P Cash. I'm still waiting for a clear definition so that discussing would make sense.

We already have a platform, that's the issue. You can't fundamentally re-engineer Bitcoin from scratch anymore.

You can't really know that.

I prefer it to be a peer to peer cash IMO, that's more close to the current bitcoin system and it's very idea IMO.

Hmm... that must have been a long time back (as I don't even recall what they were) but I think that having voted in only 2 polls in 5 years shows you that I don't care for the polls on this forum (back in late 2011 and early 2012 there weren't so many sockies and the polls might have had more apparent value).

So let me correct the statement to say that I have only ever voted in 2 polls in this forum and that those were a long time ago and that I wouldn't do so again.

Why can't it be both? This is just software isn't it? We should be able to come up with a reasonable platform that can do both without jeopardizing security, or usability. Its just a matter of getting the right minds working on it, and time. This is going to take time to create.

That's a lie. Your user stats say you casted 2 votes in the past.

I think it will end up as a settlement layer with other better faster tokens taking the currency role.

I like those numbers. 

i understand you dont want to talk about the centralization aspects of banks and visa. but please "pretend" we are talking about banks and visa just in the context of end user method of usage, rather than the technicals of controls behind the scenes. then it helps 'lay' people get to the basics of your debate about long term store vs daily spends

anyway

using blockstreams doomsday story of comparing bitcoin to possible Visa..(dont worry i hate it too, but relax, think of it from the end-user usage not the who controls it mindset)

visa averages each customer does 40 transactions a year.

bitcoin currently has 2.5mill users and based on the maths of ACTUAL average transactions per block(2000tx=500byte/tx)
2000tx(block)*144(day)*365(year)=105mill .. which not surprisingly also corresponds to a 40tx/user per year.. (kinda funny that)

after all not everyone will use it daily. some use it a couple times a day some use it once a month. hense the 40tx/year is a good average as proven by both bitcoin and visa

so 20million people doing 40 transactions/year to compare both visa and bitcoins current usage =  
8mb maxblocksize hard rule doing traditional transactions.
4.2mb maxblocksize hard rule doing Segwit transactions with a real data storage of 8mb (based on segwit and laudas assumption of 190% capacity)
4.2mb maxblocksize hard rule doing Segwit transactions and confidential payment codes with a real data storage of 12mb

so we went from 1000 tx in 2013(0.5mb block due to DB bug) its going to be 2mb+segwit in 2017(hoping to be sooner personally). and based on technology growth. a 4.2mb +segwit wont be a big deal by 2020

in short by summer 2017 bitcoin can handle 10million people doing similar daily transactions like they would using bitcoin or visa today
give it 4 years there wont be an issue with 20million. (ONLY if people dont stupidly use confidential payment codes extra feature by default)

You aren't doing that at all. If people disagree with it then it can be discussed. Just share it and let's see. Keep in mind that answering all three questions would be very helpful.

Polls on this forum are basically useless (as people will just use sockies so it only ends up telling you who is more determined to win the poll rather than anything about general opinions which is why I have never voted in a single poll on this forum and never will).

Sure... but I don't want to constrain or bias the poll by limiting it to my own definition. Other people will probably disagree...

I've already told you that if you want a definite answer that you'd have to provide a definition. What exactly is P2P cash? What features does it have? How does it compare to a settlement layer? Once we have answers to those, then we might be able to come to some sort of conclusion.