Topic: P2P Exchange for bitcoin - page 17. (Read 42787 times)

This is a good collaboration tool right now.

I can update the github readme file according to the consensus in this thread.

The simple way to do it is at Reddit or on a site like this. You have a contest where people post their designs in different threads. Then later on in the week or at the end of the week after the community has had time to discuss and review each design you have a poll where we vote on which design we think is best. The designer or team of designers who came up with that design should get the reward.

The only difficulty would be having a system where people can pledge a portion of Bitcoin, I don't know if that even exists yet. But even if it doesn't exists it's still a good idea to have the contest whether there is a reward or not because these things need peer review and no amateurish solution is good enough in my opinion for something this important.

mtGox is broken right now because they didn't properly design their code base. They relied on a flawed design because they didn't actually re-engineer or rethink everything.

Academic projects are useful for coming up with basic prototype designs. The design is extremely important when you want something to scale up without breaking down for instance. MtGox was not designed to scale up which is why they have lag. Just look at Napster, that was the initial design. They built it because it could be built at the time and it solved the problem but it didn't solve the problem in the best way so it got shut down, then we had to go through Kazaa, Bearshare, Limewire, and a bunch of other petty rip off protocols before we actually got to the well designed stuff like Bittorrent, Tor, I2P. All the while Freenet was in the background being worked on since 2000 around the same time as Napster but it didn't stop people from copying Napsters weak design over and over and all of them getting shut down and all their users having to switch from service to service.

That is what I want to have avoided. If it takes a design contest which lasts a week to avoid years of that then so be it. If you don't want to go the academic route you don't have to, but why should we believe your design is better than any other if it's not going to be peer reviewed either on this forum or at some academic journal? If you're afraid of peer review then build it yourself but don't expect people to join in if we don't know the mathematics are sound, that the algorithms will work, that the solutions are scaleable, that it's actually decentralized and not easily attacked etc.

Big plus++++

Design contest is the next logical step.

Lets get that step going today. Seriously, today.

What would it take?  I'm not a techie.  What's the best collaborative platform to use here?

Years of experience with open source has made my way of working is 100% opposed to yours. Sure, only fools rush in, but I usually like to figure out the basics then have something working first, then in time make it better. You will never have a "perfect design". What do you think would have happened when Satoshi first argued for years about a perfect design? There would still be nothing but an academic project. It's a myth that ANYONE can (or will) write the code.

And even when starting completely from scratch you need to learn about the previous projects first, even if only to know why they failed. But let's not start with a NIH attitude, everyone going their own way is what kills projects not what makes them.

Edit: I updated my post above to reflect all the github repositories etc, should be more complete now.

I think for this it might be better to start from scratch. Sure if portions of their code is well done and useful then use it, but where is their code so we can peer review it?


And even with their code it doesn't mean their designs are going to solve all the problems. We need the perfect design first, then ANYONE can write the code. The protocol design is the key, and the underlying algorithms are what make a program efficient. And that is something I admit I'm not very good at, and few people actually are. Satoshi happened to be one of the people who is good at that, how do we find the next Satoshi? I suggest a design contest.

You know, it could be done via sneakernet even but the point is I think we need to start with a Wiki of some sort. We need to have a design contest.

Something like design the best open distributed exchange protocol and win X amount in Bitcoin.
If there is no current way to even do these sorts of contests then we need a way to reliably reward people in Bitcoin who come up with brilliant designs and solutions. The way to avoid having to redesign or avoid embarrassment is to do it right the first try and the way to do that is to hold contests and have peer review.

So let's start with a big contest which lasts perhaps a week or a couple weeks and then see who wins and the winner of that contest should be the person who designs the protocol.

Interesting, thanks for the links! I wasn't aware of any projects actually in development. It has gotten lost in all the theorizing and arguing noise.

Overview of current projects:

- bitcoinx: http://www.bitcoinx.org/  

Protocol description: https://bitcoil.co.il/BitcoinX.pdf
Other code, as well as links to the forum can be found here: http://www.bitcoinx.org/resources/  
Repositories here on github: https://github.com/bitcoinx
Wiki: http://wiki.bitcoinx.org/index.php/Main_Page

- darkxchange "Dark Exchange is a distributed p2p exchange for bitcoin.". Uses the I2P network.

Source available at https://github.com/macourtney/Dark-Exchange  
Described on bitcoin wiki: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Dark_Exchange .
Also has a forum thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=26063.0;

Not really automated P2P exchanges, but P2P nevertheless:

- #bitcoin-otc (peer to peer trading with PGP web of trust and reputation system)

- Running an exchange in Google Docs: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/annexchange-01-front-end-done-google-infrastucture-back-end-coders-lets-go-174117

Any others?

Here is a way to code it. Start by using a language a lot of people know to make a basic open exchange protocol. This could be done in C because C is the most widely used language there is. The basic functions can be written in C and then an API can be created. This API should allow someone such as myself who prefers high level languages like Python to code certain aspects. Basically the protocol should be language agnostic so that as many different programmers as possible can join into the project.

The project has to put a specific focus on countering trading algorithms and on preventing attacks which can game the system. This would require an engineer with PhD level math and programming skills beyond most of ours to come up with some ideas. The first step for any of us who are grad or Phd students is to use our resources to research all the journals on this issue to see whether or not any novel ideas have been found.

For example game theory may be part of the solution just based on my hunch but once again you'd have to look it up and read a journal or two to figure it out. There may be all kinds of solutions but the main thing is research. One way to facilitate research is by offering a Bitcoin bounty to anyone who does the research and discovers the solution.

I don't know how the bounty could be set up but I think this is the best way to encourage the masters or Phd level students in here to actually research the theoretical solution. Once a theoretical solution is proposed then it should be voted on and if it wins the contest then the winner should receive the Bitcoin bounty.

At some point start a Kickstarter or something like this and have the community officially back the project once a theoretical design solution is found. It's not enough to look at already existing projects because the design we'd need for this one would have to prevent all kinds of manipulations, and being distributed doesn't mean it would be completely immune to attack. Also I see this as a chance to strengthen Bitcoin and cryptocurrencies in general. So why not do it right? Bitcoin was done right, so gather up the best brains and start the contests to see which ideas and proposals are the best.

It needs to be done without servers period!

Techies, is this a potential option:

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/how-to-create-a-true-decentralized-fast-exchangeeasily-with-existing-code-174326

Two things I want to stress. This exchange has to be even more simple than mtGox. It should connect to people on Skype or AIM or ICQ etc and let them order through that interface or web or any other.

The API should allow anything to plug into it so it can be ubiquitous.

It must be modular, so that it can be easily pluggable, extendable, etc.

Basically I think what is needed is a protocol and an API, written in a simple language like Python so anyone can easily read it and make use of it. Ruby could work too for it's worth. If it must be written in C or C++ then write it so that high level scripting languages can make use of all it's functions and API.

As far as how the exchange will work that is up for debate but definitely make the code well written, modular, easy to read, easy to upgrade, and let as many people plug into it as possible. So if the core of it is C++ or C then let as many from the community write code in their own languages for their own plugins as possible.

The goal should be to write code which can be reused a lot by a lot of people and code which can be read and improved up by a lot of people. I think it might be useful to start completely from scratch here, but design is the most important part and that is the part which in my opinion needs the most debate and by design I mean what is the best possible design from a computer scientist or engeering phd perspective?

Maybe it's time to look up some of the academic journals and see whats out there or find some really well written code and see which examples we can use for case studies which have been known to scale up. This code has to scale up without losing flexibility and remain decentralized (not easy).

If someone knows how to do this, please share. Last time I looked at OT it was all very abstract. Yes there is code and everyone agrees it's elegant and amazing, but HOW DO I USE IT?

I'm happy to throw a server or 2 at it - but there needs to be some sort of map on how to get there.

A Federation of OpenTransactions signing servers could have this system up and running in 2-6 months (maybe less if more resources) ... the "exchange servers" are not so much exchanges as Notaries that sign off on any trades/transfers that pass through them ... i.e. it is questionable whether they need to worry about MSB BS because they do not actually transfer anything, just sign off on it.

That  wont happen. Too many lives are at stake, plus freedom is at stake as well.


http://lfb.org/today/what-bitcoin-is-teaching-us/

At the end he says:




Bitcoin is still in beta, so the only way is up.

This time it is about the future of bitcoin. If we are so lazy that we let MtGox's failure destroy the reputation of bitcoin, then its a shame Satoshi wasted his time creating bitcoin.

This is one I am fairly sure you have not seen:


https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-new-idea-for-bitcoin-markets-145389


Its a PHP plugin for Wordpress.


Many here have plenty of good ideas. Can we mix a few of them? One thing about software; you only have to make it work one time and then it does the rest.

Yes Bitcoin-OTC is a great solution! If we can make it decentralized and make it easy for brokers to participate this could be our official exchange.

yes he is ok !

what about : http://bitcoin-otc.com/

looks intresting: http://bitcoin-otc.com/vieworderbook.php

easy web frontend  isnt it

Sorry, I know ideas are needed, but I'm probably just upset that we've been having these ideas, mostly the same ones, for almost two years, with no one being able to come up with anything new, or how to actually come up with the solution to the fiat storing/transmitting problem (this token thing sounds barely promising). In a way, the fact that we still haven't solved the P2P fiat problem is a testament to the superiority of Bitcoin to cash.

I can code, but Im not a programming guru like some of you guys. But people like me can at least try to contribute with ideas and architecture.