Paper wallets still good options - page 2.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: libert19 on June 19, 2020, 11:34:28 PM

Write seed on paper, and give it in a custody of bank. The best of both worlds.

I'm not sure it is. That set up involves a lot of trust in a third party (the bank), which I would not be comfortable giving them. Are you absolutely sure no one at the bank will ever take a peek at the piece of paper you give them to store? Even if you go in to their vault yourself and lock it in a safe deposit box yourself, you have absolutely no way of knowing that they don't have another key which can open your box. You are placing complete trust in their security set up and their staff.

If you are going to trust a third party to hold your seed for you, be it a bank, a lawyer, a friend, whomever, then it would be a wise move to encrypt it first.

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Write seed on paper, and give it in a custody of bank. The best of both worlds. Tongue

They are good for long term storage, if you do transactions frequently and want security then hardware wallets are good.

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Quote from: 20kevin20 on June 19, 2020, 08:31:08 PM

For paper wallets, you could do that if you store your private keys & addresses in a plain text or PDF file.

Sure, but that goes back to the point I made in my post further up this page. Having such easy access to your private key(s) is a security risk, especially for newbies who may not fully understand those risks. Obviously you should never have your private keys saved in plain text, and the whole point of using a good wallet is to handle your private keys for you to reduce the risk of something going wrong. If the wallet openly displays your private keys and makes it so easy to copy them that a single misclick can leak them, then your wallet is barely any better than a text file and I would suggest re-examining your security set up and taking steps to prevent this from happening.

Quote from: 20kevin20 on June 19, 2020, 08:31:08 PM

I could bet a significant part of BTC holders keep a copy of the paper wallets or .dat files in cloud storage as "backup".

Oh absolutely. There are also a worrying number of people who store private data in web based email accounts like Googlemail. You have absolutely no idea just how many servers around the world now have a copy of your private keys on them and just how many people have remote or even physical access to those servers. It's even worse than using a web wallet, and that's saying something.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 19, 2020, 08:09:47 PM

Genuine question - which wallet are you using where extracting your private key as simple as copying the wrong field? Most wallets will require you to go in to the console (such as dumpprivkey in Bitcoin Core), or go through a specific menu and click on a specific option to access your private key (such as Electrum). Copying your private key shouldn't be as easy as hitting Ctrl+C with the wrong field selected.

For paper wallets, you could do that if you store your private keys & addresses in a plain text or PDF file. Back when I used them, there were times when I even scanned the privkey instead of the address by mistake as I did not fold the privkey part of the printed wallet.

Especially as a newbie, this could easily happen - it's the lack of basic crypto knowledge and the huge lack of basic cybersecurity education at its best; I could bet a significant part of BTC holders keep a copy of the paper wallets or .dat files in cloud storage as "backup".

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Quote from: hd49728 on June 17, 2020, 09:26:00 AM

When they copy and paste receiving address, they mistakenly copy and paste private key.

Genuine question - which wallet are you using where extracting your private key as simple as copying the wrong field? Most wallets will require you to go in to the console (such as dumpprivkey in Bitcoin Core), or go through a specific menu and click on a specific option to access your private key (such as Electrum). Copying your private key shouldn't be as easy as hitting Ctrl+C with the wrong field selected.

Quote from: Oshosondy on June 19, 2020, 05:09:20 PM

That is what I am trying to say, hardware wallets are just better, paper wallets are complex

There's no doubt that paper wallets are more complex than hardware wallets, but that doesn't necessarily make hardware wallets "better". It depends on what you are looking for in a wallet. Hardware wallets are easier to use and more convenient, sure, but securely generated paper wallets are better for long term cold storage than hardware wallets are.

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 17, 2020, 08:46:12 AM

Quote from: Pmalek on June 17, 2020, 06:56:10 AM

A properly generated paper wallet is the best you can do security wise.

I agree, but with the caveat that it is set up properly. A lot of newbies do not have the knowledge or skills to do this, and end up creating insecure paper wallets. For these users, a hardware wallet is a better choice.

That is what I am trying to say, hardware wallets are just better, paper wallets are complex, it is the type of wallet I can not use. With the current situation of bitcoin price, I prefer hardware wallets than using a complex, hard to know paper wallet.

enhu

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Quote from: hd49728 on June 17, 2020, 05:49:37 AM

Quote from: NeuroticFish on June 17, 2020, 05:10:38 AM

However, as you said, nowadays it's easier to just generate a mnemonic seed and store that one for long term. Human readable words are easier to hide in plain sight than something that clearly looks like a private key.
Just Electrum is not the best example, its seed works only with Electrum. Ian Coleman's tool is a better call.

Yeap, Electrum is only one of SPV wallet. People can choose non-custodial wallet for their preference and do relevant steps to created, secure, and backup their wallets. During the process of create, secure, backup wallets, and during the lifespan, if one mistype their wallets' private keys into the search box of Google or browser's address space, they should move their funds immediately and dispose that wallet forever.

Exposing private keys to search engines is so bad.

Thats very tight security. I'd not be surprised if someone did search their private key in the url. Checking perhaps if there is a similar private key with his out of curiosity I guess.

But this is why before doing something, one has to double-check to make sure all are correct. If you have mistakenly sent funds before, you should be checked many times if possible before executing the transaction. You'd be thinking over and over why and how before you sleep if you mistakenly did it even if its just $200 worht of BTC.

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Not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on June 17, 2020, 08:46:12 AM

This is true, but in what scenario is someone inputting their private keys in to a search engine? Most people shouldn't even be handling their private keys; that's the whole point of having a secure wallet to handle them for you. Even having your private keys revealed in plain text or copied to your clipboard on a computer with internet access is a risk. I would suggest if you have entered your private key in to a search engine, even accidentally, you look again at your security set up to figure out how and why that even happened. This is a potentially catastrophic and completely preventable mistake.

When they have a transaction need to be confirmed or need to give receiving address to trade partners. When they copy and paste receiving address, they mistakenly copy and paste private key. It is uncommon mistake but I think it can happen. Human can make mistakes and sometimes their mistakes are catastrophic. If they do such mistakes and don't move funds to another wallet, and if that wallet is compromised, that will be a truly catastrophic money-lost lesson.

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Quote from: hd49728 on June 17, 2020, 05:49:37 AM

if one mistype their wallets' private keys into the search box of Google or browser's address space, they should move their funds immediately and dispose that wallet forever.

This is true, but in what scenario is someone inputting their private keys in to a search engine? Most people shouldn't even be handling their private keys; that's the whole point of having a secure wallet to handle them for you. Even having your private keys revealed in plain text or copied to your clipboard on a computer with internet access is a risk. I would suggest if you have entered your private key in to a search engine, even accidentally, you look again at your security set up to figure out how and why that even happened. This is a potentially catastrophic and completely preventable mistake.

Quote from: hatshepsut93 on June 17, 2020, 05:56:08 AM

even storing them on a CD, floppy disc or a USB stick still counts as offline storage.

This is true, but only if the removable media was generated from an airgapped computer and is only ever plugged in to an airgapped computed. If you create a USB stick with private keys from an internet enabled device, that's not offline storage.

Quote from: Pmalek on June 17, 2020, 06:56:10 AM

A properly generated paper wallet is the best you can do security wise.

I agree, but with the caveat that it is set up properly. A lot of newbies do not have the knowledge or skills to do this, and end up creating insecure paper wallets. For these users, a hardware wallet is a better choice.

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Quote from: Oshosondy on June 16, 2020, 07:32:31 PM

Electrum wallet is an online wallet, I even read is an open source wallet created long time ago, people claimed online wallets are not secure but electeum wallet really is worth of saving bitcoin. We are different people with different opinion though, I just like electrum for saving little amount of bitcoin, and I have coinomi for sophisticated reasons. I do not have hardware wallet for now, but planning to get ledger nano x which I believe has overtook paper wallets trend of last decade.

Electrum is a software wallet. It is a much safer variant than web/online wallets hosted by third parties. Compared to Coinomi it is certainly a better option if we are only talking about a place to store Bitcoin. Coinomi is closed-source but it is a multi-currency wallet which is a plus.

A properly generated paper wallet is the best you can do security wise. Hardware wallets are close but still in 2nd place. And I say that as a hardware wallet user myself. Don't think about hardware wallets as too expensive. Consider how expensive it would be to lose your coins for not paying enough attention on security.

hatshepsut93

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Quote from: Oshosondy on June 16, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Paper wallet is cumbersome to use, need good knowledge about it before use and before holding if you want one. It can be burned in fire accident, it can be destroyed by water or other liquids, that is why I do not like it. But for safety, it is still good because its private keys are offline.

There's a lot misconceptions here. Hardware wallet are not immune to elements either, and you'd need a very good fire-proof safe to protect any kind of wallet from those accidents.

Paper or hardware wallets aren't the only methods of storing keys offline, even storing them on a CD, floppy disc or a USB stick still counts as offline storage.

But offline storage alone isn't a guarantee that your keys won't be stolen. Most of the times coins are stolen when you access them, for example when you enter your seed or private key into a fake wallet software, or when you have malware on your computer that logs keystrokes or can steal private keys from RAM. Hardware wallet protects from all that because the key is used in a secure isolated environment. If you want to achieve the same with a paper wallet, you need to make your own cold storage setup.

hd49728

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Not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: NeuroticFish on June 17, 2020, 05:10:38 AM

However, as you said, nowadays it's easier to just generate a mnemonic seed and store that one for long term. Human readable words are easier to hide in plain sight than something that clearly looks like a private key.
Just Electrum is not the best example, its seed works only with Electrum. Ian Coleman's tool is a better call.

Yeap, Electrum is only one of SPV wallet. People can choose non-custodial wallet for their preference and do relevant steps to created, secure, and backup their wallets. During the process of create, secure, backup wallets, and during the lifespan, if one mistype their wallets' private keys into the search box of Google or browser's address space, they should move their funds immediately and dispose that wallet forever.

Exposing private keys to search engines is so bad.

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Quote from: MrMojoRising26 on June 16, 2020, 11:53:46 PM

I love the physical bitcoins which is the same concept as a paper wallet. I have yet to peel one so it keeps me from spending it or panic selling Cheesy

the concept is actually a little different. the physical bitcoins mainly server the purpose of a "collectible" and is mainly bought and traded by collectors. as a result of this purpose, the value of them can be well above the total value of the bitcoin they are storing. to sell them, you don't peel it off, selling is usually done by selling the physical coin itself to another collector.

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Quote from: hd49728 on June 17, 2020, 05:02:19 AM

I don't understand what is your opinion when you said paper wallets are good for cheap coins.

I think that the main point in his sentence was about coins one chooses to HOLD for many years and the addition of the "cheap" part ruined it all.
So yes, paper wallets are great for long term hold, no matter the coins are cheap or not.

However, as you said, nowadays it's easier to just generate a mnemonic seed and store that one for long term. Human readable words are easier to hide in plain sight than something that clearly looks like a private key.
Just Electrum is not the best example, its seed works only with Electrum. Ian Coleman's tool is a better call.

hd49728

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Not your keys, not your coins!

Quote from: Novatech8 on June 17, 2020, 04:44:36 AM

Paper wallets are good for coins that are still very cheap that you will need to hold for several years, for example pundix or Tron, as for Bitcoin it's bad idea locking your coins away, Bitcoin can gain 50% per day unexpectedly, you can easily take out your profit and buy back when price fall.

Paper wallets or whatever wallets are only good if you know how to use and how to secure it.

I don't understand what is your opinion when you said paper wallets are good for cheap coins. Personally, I disagree with it. Bitcoin was cheap in the past, now it values above $9000. Cheap altcoins nowadays have their different future and some of them will become expensive like we saw ETH, DASH, Ripple in 2017 and very early 2018.

Whenever you spend your money to invest, you have to secure your funds, from chosen wallets (paper wallets for instance).

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Paper wallets are good for coins that are still very cheap that you will need to hold for several years, for example pundix or Tron, as for Bitcoin it's bad idea locking your coins away, Bitcoin can gain 50% per day unexpectedly, you can easily take out your profit and buy back when price fall.

Oshosondy

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Quote from: jseverson on June 17, 2020, 02:23:47 AM

Quote from: Oshosondy on June 16, 2020, 07:32:31 PM

Electrum wallet is an online wallet, I even read is an open source wallet created long time ago, people claimed online wallets are not secure but electeum wallet really is worth of saving bitcoin. We are different people with different opinion though, I just like electrum for saving little amount of bitcoin, and I have coinomi for sophisticated reasons. I do not have hardware wallet for now, but planning to get ledger nano x which I believe has overtook paper wallets trend of last decade.

It can also be used offline, so you could use it as a paper wallet (by generating keys on a machine that has never touched, or never touch the internet), or even a de facto hardware wallet (by using a persistent Linux flash drive that will never touch the internet).

I know about this, but you need two device for this, one will be used for making transaction and for knowing about bitcoin balance, it will not contain the private key, the other device will contain the private key, not connected to bluetooth or internet to make it safe. You can also use phone for it or computers.

jseverson

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Quote from: Oshosondy on June 16, 2020, 07:32:31 PM

Electrum wallet is an online wallet, I even read is an open source wallet created long time ago, people claimed online wallets are not secure but electeum wallet really is worth of saving bitcoin. We are different people with different opinion though, I just like electrum for saving little amount of bitcoin, and I have coinomi for sophisticated reasons. I do not have hardware wallet for now, but planning to get ledger nano x which I believe has overtook paper wallets trend of last decade.

It can also be used offline, so you could use it as a paper wallet (by generating keys on a machine that has never touched, or never touch the internet), or even a de facto hardware wallet (by using a persistent Linux flash drive that will never touch the internet).

Anyway, it seems like your reason for not suggesting paper wallets is better suited towards traders who need to be able to transact on the fly, rather than holders who just want cold storage. Don't get me wrong though, hardware wallets certainly give paper wallets some heavy competition, but its only real advantage is convenience -- something which not everyone is willing to pay money for. They also cater to different needs, so they're not entirely comparable.

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Quote from: Oshosondy on June 16, 2020, 02:29:56 PM

Recently, I have been reading articles about wallets, the safest I read about are paper wallets and hardware wallets. I prefer hardware wallets but they are expensive for my liking for now and I want to consider going for a paper wallet. But according to wikipeia, paper wallets generate only one address which means only one address for transaction. i think it is not a good alternative for me.

Paper wallets for hodling
Paper wallets should be used for only holding, it was common in 2012 to around 2016, but whales do like and prefer hardware wallets now because it is more easy to understand and use than a paper wallet. For now, paper wallet can still be good for holding but it is good to send the coins you want to hold on it at ones.

Why paper wallet is not encouraged now
I will say paper wallet is not good to use now, because of the price of bitcoin, it is good in the past when bitcoin price was rising but unlike now, a good holder need a hardware wallet which he can still be able to convert from one coin to another, make transactions. A complete holder, can still withdraw to stanble coins or fiat as a safe haven when bitcoin price is falling. If someone can afford hardware wallet, it is better.

Paper wallet is cumbersome to use, need good knowledge about it before use and before holding if you want one. It can be burned in fire accident, it can be destroyed by water or other liquids, that is why I do not like it. But for safety, it is still good because its private keys are offline.

Importation of Bitcoin paper wallet Into another wallet won't take more than a second to show up in your new wallet, this is not a problem at all, paper wallet are the safest option, if bitcoin surge to a new ATH just import your paper wallet and you are set

MrMojoRising26

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I love the physical bitcoins which is the same concept as a paper wallet. I have yet to peel one so it keeps me from spending it or panic selling Cheesy

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