Topic: PeerTrade - No central exchange, no escrow, no fiat. minimal risk. - page 2. (Read 3805 times)

This is a very well known way to trade, and most would find this not very inspiring. Don't be discouraged when not a lot of members showed interest.

The key is implementation and interface. If you can have this interface where you set all the details of the trade and put it in "ready mode", it will complete the full deal bit by bit fully automated whenever a buyer/seller accepts, it would be a killer.

What you need is some screen shots of the interface or a video of an actual deal on youtube, then comments and ideas will come.

Why don't you risk that small amount but instead the exchange can escrow that amount so it's risk free?

If they implement the RPC api for sendtoaddress(), getreceivedbyaddress(), and listtransactions() then they would work.  At present I have no plans to support them especially, but that could possibly change.



yes, I have considered a reputation system.  It is mentioned in the README todo list.  A simple system could be implemented just by including a unique userid (guid generated on each node) in the peertrade token.  Then peertrade.org could just display how many published trades each user has.  Could also attach comments.


Yeah, PeerTrade is not complex.   It is a simple idea.  But it does enable transferring large sums with an arbitrarily smaller amount of risk, eg sum/100 or sum/1000.   I find centralized exchanges to be much riskier than that.

PeerTrade doesn't have its own peer network at present, so there is no shared orderbook in that sense.  I am considering adding a central orderbook on the website, and users would be emailed when there is a match.  Not ideal, but possibly workable.

a dedicated p2p network + orderbook would be outside my expertise.  But if anyone here is interested in creating such a thing, you'd be welcome to join the project.

Another idea is use counterparty or mastercoin as a shared orderbook.  I'm not sure of the feasability of that yet.

Anyway, thanks for your comments!

Wow, this sounds like quite an accomplishment. Congrats.  I am surprised you have had very little response given the need for a trustless exchange.

From a brief glance it would appear you only support copy/paste Bitcoin clones (via the RPC), what if I want to trade BTC, XRP, NXT, will it support these different cryptocoin implementations?

Have you thought about some sort of reputation system, it could be used so that a trade between two reputable people could be broken down into less fractions, requiring less fees.

Cheers

Edit: Oh, I see there is no shared orderbook.. PeerTrade simple allows to users to break up a transfer..  Sorry, not as impressive as I first thought

Ok, I changed the copy on the website to something a bit more sales-y.  

You are a true blue bitcoiner countryfree.  i salute you, and thanks for the feedback.

All I have is BTC, and I don't want to have any other cryptocurrency, but your idea is interesting, you have my support.

Well sure I will be happy to upgrade and improve it if people are actually using it.  So far though it seems like pulling teeth to even get anyone to download the software and try it out.  I'm not sure if my explanation is not adequate, or people just don't like the idea, or what.  It's hard to interpret inaction and silence.

Of course I am biased but I think the software is pretty neat.  I don't like the central exchanges and this software enables me as a miner to trade altcoins directly with other miners, even the unlisted coins.  Now it's true that I could lose a non-zero amount of coins if the other party is untrustworthy, but I get to control exactly what that amount is, and to me that small risk is totally worth it.  Like a cost of doing business, or like exchange fees.

I think that when people try the software they will be surprised how easy it is to use.   It is text-mode, but it walks you through the trade process step-by-step and tries really hard to auto-configure connections to your wallets, and remember settings for next time.

Anyway, thanks for the encouragement roslinpl.

But each project must be upgraded in future isn't ? just to make it better, more stable etc.
And for now it looks very good!

Good job!

in what upgrades?   The trading software is working now and is available on github.   Just download it and give it a try.  I am happy to perform a test trade with anyone that does so.

If you mean the website peertrade.org, well I would like to get some feedback from people using the trading software before I devote more time to adding significant website features.  If people find the underlying trade mechanism useful, then it becomes worthwhile to build an orderbook around it for matching trades.

well I must say this project is very interesting!
I would like to see how it will be developed in the upgrades.

Anyone want to trade?   Here's your chance to be the Hal Finney of PeerTrade.    

Cool.  Do you have any altcoins you'd be interested in trading?   If you download the PeerTrade software we could give the system a test run.

Here's a few I could trade:  ELP, STR, IFC, LBW, RVD, ASC, QRK. RPC, DRK, SNC.

Would trade any of the above for BTC, LTC, DOGE, PPC.   Or for just about any coin, really... it can be a small trade.   ;-)

Wow. This is an interesting concept. I would be very interested in this

So it's been 24 hours since I started this thread and so far not a single reply.  I had hoped some people would try the software out, or at least that there would be some questions and comments. Or someone saying it's a dumb idea, or something.

Silence is golden I guess.

If there were genuine interest, I was planning to work next on building out the peertrade.org website with an orderbook system, so it could match orders, then notify the parties so they could perform the trade.  This would essentially be a full exchange website except that the exchange would never hold a single satoshi of the traded funds, and markets would be determined by the decentralized traders, not the exchange.

I am honestly surprised by the complete lack of interest in this project given how many have been burned by all these exchanges getting hacked or absconding with funds.  And also how people have had to beg cryptsy and the other exchanges to get their new coins listed. I know there are many coins out there with people holding and mining them, that are not listed on any exchange.

So I'd like to take a little poll.  To anyone reading this, I'd like to know your state of mind:

a) Interested, but need more examples/help to get started.

b) Interested, but I don't have anyone to trade with.

c) Very interested.  Downloaded software and looking for someone to trade with.

d) Confused.  What does this thing do again?

e) Contemptuous.  It's a bad idea from the get-go.

f) Lazy.  Waiting for a system with an orderbook to find trading partners for me.

g) Risk Averse. I don't want to risk a single satoshi (of any cryptocurrency) when I'm trading, even if I control the max risked amount and it enables a fully decentralized exchange.

h) Uninterested.  This all sounds too difficult.

i) Uninterested.  I'm happy with the existing exchanges, or I don't trade altcoins.


Or just post your comments.


Thanks!

Here is an example trade occurring with 10 rounds of exchange and 0 confirmations.

---

Bob sees:

--- Beginning trade Buy 20 BFC, Sell 15 STR ---

2014-03-24 10:36:05 -- [0] Sent 0 of 15 STR               [0] Rcvd 0 of 20 BFC               Ahead:  0 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:12 -- [0] Sent 0.01 of 15 STR                                               Ahead:  0 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:21 --                                    [0] Rcvd 0.001 of 20 BFC           Ahead:  0 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:25 -- [1] Sent 1.5 of 15 STR                                                Ahead:  1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:34 --                                    [2] Rcvd 4 of 20 BFC               Behind: 1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:38 -- [3] Sent 4.5 of 15 STR                                                Ahead:  1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:42 --                                    [4] Rcvd 8 of 20 BFC               Behind: 1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:47 -- [5] Sent 7.5 of 15 STR                                                Ahead:  1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:36:55 --                                    [6] Rcvd 12 of 20 BFC              Behind: 1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:37:00 -- [7] Sent 10.5 of 15 STR                                               Ahead:  1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:37:04 --                                    [8] Rcvd 16 of 20 BFC              Behind: 1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:37:10 -- [9] Sent 13.5 of 15 STR                                               Ahead:  1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:37:18 --                                    [10] Rcvd 20 of 20 BFC             Behind: 1.5 STR
2014-03-24 10:37:26 -- [10] Sent 15 of 15 STR                                                Ahead:  0 STR

Trade is complete!

---

Alice sees:

--- Beginning trade Buy 15 STR, Sell 20 BFC ---

2014-03-24 10:36:19 -- [0] Sent 0 of 20 BFC               [0] Rcvd 0.01 of 15 STR            Ahead:  0 BFC
2014-03-24 10:36:30 -- [0] Sent 0.001 of 20 BFC           [1] Rcvd 1.5 of 15 STR             Behind: 2 BFC
2014-03-24 10:36:41 -- [2] Sent 4 of 20 BFC               [3] Rcvd 4.5 of 15 STR             Behind: 2 BFC
2014-03-24 10:36:52 -- [4] Sent 8 of 20 BFC               [5] Rcvd 7.5 of 15 STR             Behind: 2 BFC
2014-03-24 10:37:03 -- [6] Sent 12 of 20 BFC              [7] Rcvd 10.5 of 15 STR            Behind: 2 BFC
2014-03-24 10:37:14 -- [8] Sent 16 of 20 BFC              [9] Rcvd 13.5 of 15 STR            Behind: 2 BFC
2014-03-24 10:37:28 -- [10] Sent 20 of 20 BFC             [10] Rcvd 15 of 15 STR             Ahead:  0 BFC

Trade is complete!

---

( omitting all the trade setup and token exchange wizard stuff. )

Have you been burned by a centralized altcoin exchange?   Or an exchange won't list your coin?   Read on.

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tl;dr  PeerTrade is software that facilitates cross blockchain cryptocurrency exchange directly between two parties with a known minimal risk.

Readme: https://github.com/peertrade/peertrade/
Download: https://github.com/peertrade/peertrade/releases
website: http://peertrade.org

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Author's Note

This software is something of an experiment, and is released in an early text-mode prototype form, to determine if the altcoin community is interested in this novel manner of trading. If there does seem to be real interest, feedback and adoption then further advances in the software, documentation and associated website will be forthcoming.  If not, it's been fun to work on.

Enjoy PeerTrade!



What is PeerTrade for?

PeerTrade facilitates the exchange of cryptocurrencies directly between two parties without any third party involvement. This means: no centralized exchange and no escrow agent.

The problem we face when two parties wish to exchange digital coins of one cryptocurrency for another is that neither party wants to go first because the other party might simply run off with all the coins.

PeerTrade is software that aims to minimize and manage this risk, rather than solve the problem altogether.

PeerTrade does not do any fancy cryptography and does not utilize any form of escrow. It simply breaks an exchange up into many smaller exchanges so that the risk is much smaller if the other party does not come through.

This way large amounts can be traded back and forth, but only small amounts will be risked by either party.

A trade can be broken into any number of rounds, so the risked amount can be made very small indeed. The tradeoff is that the more rounds of exchange, the longer the trade will take.

PeerTrade is sort of like paying half up-front, half-on delivery to limit your risk. But PeerTrade breaks the payment into much smaller chunks, and automates the process for both parties.

So a trade of 100 ABCcoin for 10 XYZcoin can be split into 10 exchanges of 10 ABC and 1 XYZ. Or 100 exchanges of 1 ABC and 0.1 XYZ. Or 1000 exchanges of 0.1 ABC and 0.001 XYZ. You get the picture.

The number of rounds and the number of receive confirmations per round is determined by the first party to initiate a trade, and is visible to both parties before trade begins.

Still it must be emphasized that it is possible (and likely) to lose one round's worth of funds should you deal with an untrustworthy person. As such, PeerTrade users are encouraged to:

    Trade only with individuals with established reputations.
    Only enter into trades when you can absorb losing 1 round's worth of coins.

It should also be emphasized that the only communication that PeerTrade performs between the two trading parties is sending and receiving coins via the blockchains of the two crypocurrencies involved. All other communication is performed out-of-band by the two parties.


A PeerTrade exchange can be visualized like this:
http://peertrade.org/images/howitworks.png



Features

    Direct 2 party trades between cryptocoins. ( Escrow not required )
    Breaks a trade up into many smaller automated trades with much lower risk.
    PeerTrade tokens encode trade parameters for sending to other party.
    Trade any coin for any other. Not limited to primary markets.
    Trade new or unpopular coins that are not listed on any exchange.
    No account signup needed.
    Can resume incomplete trades.
    Completed trades may be (optionally) published to peertrade.org
    Coin list with default wallet parameters auto refreshed from peertrade.org
    Works with any cryptocoin wallet that supports the basic bitcoin RPC methods.
    Detects encrypted wallets and assists with unlocking for send.



How to Trade

The PeerTrade model is two party peer to peer only. So you need to (somehow) find someone that is willing to trade a given amount of coins at a given price. Eg, I will sell you 20 XYZ coins for 50 ABC coins.

When both parties come to agreement then either party can initiate a trade with PeerTrade. The software will generate a token that the first party gives to the second, and then the second party must give a matching token back to the first. These tokens contain payment amounts, coin addresses, number of rounds, etc. Once the tokens have been swapped and verified, trading can begin.

If the underlying PeerTrade exchange mechanism catches on, it is expected that over time the trading community will devise efficient platforms for announcing, matching and accepting trade offers. For now, just starting out, it can be as simple as starting a forum thread: "WTS 300 abcCoin for xyzCoin. Send offers".

Going forward, one can imagine exchange website(s) that accept limit orders and performs order matching, but do not execute any orders. Instead, when two orders are matched, the site notifies the two parties so that they can trade between themselves.

--------

Readme continues at: https://github.com/peertrade/peertrade/
website: http://peertrade.org     ( markets and info )