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Topic: Permanently keeping the 1MB (anti-spam) restriction is a great idea ... - page 16. (Read 105082 times)

hero member
Activity: 836
Merit: 1030
bits of proof
Why couldn't MAX_BLOCK_SIZE be self-adjusting?
That very vague.... based on what?

I am not generally against increasing block size, but against doing it for the wrong reason or too eagerly.

The pace of increase has to be algorithmic, driven by market forces and advances of technology, not cenral planning or cartels.
The algorithm we have now, that fits above, is that of the difficulty adjustment.

It is plausible to me that difficulty stalls or falls if mining is no longer highly profitable, in which case block size limit should not be increased. This is actualy the line of thought that makes me think an increase of block limit at this time point is not warranted.

Linking block size increase with difficulty adjustment would be technically straightforward since difficulty calculation already drives validatation, size limit could be just one more of it its output and implied checks.

hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.

Absolutely agreed.


please stop acting like over-emotive princesses.
lol
those posts are exactly what I meant. It's elementary school all over again Cheesy

Bitch, fork that chain and I'll get my cousin to beat you up Tongue
I have two older brothers, who will beat the shit out your cousins. So, just try.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.

Absolutely agreed.


please stop acting like over-emotive princesses.
lol
those posts are exactly what I meant. It's elementary school all over again Cheesy
sr. member
Activity: 346
Merit: 250
Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.

Absolutely agreed.


please stop acting like over-emotive princesses.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/

Since you content farm lot are all busy copy/pasting the same stuff over and over to each other instead of paying attention.

What does he expect, we're going to cancel the hard fork because he slanders some people with eloquent and expressive prose? Because he declares he can single handedly sabotage the process due to his importance and influence?

Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.
I recently talked to some Bitcoin-Users in real life. None of them doubted, that the hard fork will come, none of them had any fear, that something would go wrong(and some of them understood the technology much better than me)
Being active on this forum often clouds your vision from what is going on in the real BTC-World.
That's why I try to stay away from such thread. I think, I already read all the pro and cons on that matter. The rest is just accusation of who is  an idiot or a shill. It reminds me about elementary school.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.

Absolutely agreed.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/

Since you content farm lot are all busy copy/pasting the same stuff over and over to each other instead of paying attention.

What does he expect, we're going to cancel the hard fork because he slanders some people with eloquent and expressive prose? Because he declares he can single handedly sabotage the process due to his importance and influence?

Whether the hard fork happens is not going to be determined by one man's ego. If he wants to present his arguments for not doing the hard fork in a diplomatic manner, they will be taken into account, and debated, but there is no debate as long as one man looks down on others, and feels no need to restrain himself and speak to them respectfully.
hero member
Activity: 714
Merit: 500
http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/

Since you content farm lot are all busy copy/pasting the same stuff over and over to each other instead of paying attention.
lol,
so someone made a blog-entry about a Forum post to make it look more legitimate?
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
Of course if there were no block limit, miners would be able to maximize their transaction fee intake whether that mean 2 MB blocks, 5 MB, whatever... market forces will determine the fee per byte that is needed to get a transaction into the blockchain in a timely fashion. Whether that fee makes it economical to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin, that remains to be seen (and may very well vary from person to person).

I should actually correct myself here since I overlooked the potential tragedy of the commons situation when it comes to miners including transations- a blockchain with no block size limit would not necessarily generate the most fees or be the most secure for that reason. However, it's still entirely possible (and in my opinion quite likely) that increasing the block size limit from 1 MB would increase the total fees per block in the long run.
For the entirety of Bitcoin's history, it has produced blocks smaller than the protocol limit.

Why didn't the average size of blocks shoot up to 1 MB and stay there the instant Satoshi added a block size limit to the protocol?

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Clearly there just hasn't been the demand for 1 MB worth of transactions per block thus far, but that could change relatively soon., and thus the debate over lifting the 1 MB cap before we get to that point. If suddenly the block limit were to drop to 50kb, I think we'd start seeing a whole lot of 50kb blocks, no?
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
Of course if there were no block limit, miners would be able to maximize their transaction fee intake whether that mean 2 MB blocks, 5 MB, whatever... market forces will determine the fee per byte that is needed to get a transaction into the blockchain in a timely fashion. Whether that fee makes it economical to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin, that remains to be seen (and may very well vary from person to person).

I should actually correct myself here since I overlooked the potential tragedy of the commons situation when it comes to miners including transations- a blockchain with no block size limit would not necessarily generate the most fees or be the most secure for that reason. However, it's still entirely possible (and in my opinion quite likely) that increasing the block size limit from 1 MB would increase the total fees per block in the long run.
For the entirety of Bitcoin's history, it has produced blocks smaller than the protocol limit.

Why didn't the average size of blocks shoot up to 1 MB and stay there the instant Satoshi added a block size limit to the protocol?
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
Of course if there were no block limit, miners would be able to maximize their transaction fee intake whether that mean 2 MB blocks, 5 MB, whatever... market forces will determine the fee per byte that is needed to get a transaction into the blockchain in a timely fashion. Whether that fee makes it economical to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin, that remains to be seen (and may very well vary from person to person).

I should actually correct myself here since I overlooked the potential tragedy of the commons situation when it comes to miners including transations- a blockchain with no block size limit would not necessarily generate the most fees or be the most secure for that reason. However, it's still entirely possible (and in my opinion quite likely) that increasing the block size limit from 1 MB would increase the total fees per block in the long run.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
sr. member
Activity: 342
Merit: 250
Thank you DeathAndTaxes for this excellent post on why the block size limit must increase if bitcoin is to ever reach its potential as (or simply to remain) a decentralized, peer-to-peer means of exchange. A highly restricted blockchain that is impractical for regular people to use is not what bitcoin was ever intended to be, and you did a good job explaining why this is what bitcoin would become with a fixed 1 MB cap (and sooner than most people think). You also did a good job debunking several of the most common objections to lifting the 1 MB cap, and I would further emphasize that an artificial cap on the number of bitcoin transactions is not the best way to maximize mining fees and/or security. This follows from basic economic principles. Hypothetically speaking, if you assume purely self-interested miners and capping blocks at 1 MB happens to be the way to generate the greatest amount of transaction fees, then blocks will be no larger than 1 MB regardless of what the block limit is. Of course if there were no block limit, miners would be able to maximize their transaction fee intake whether that mean 2 MB blocks, 5 MB, whatever... market forces will determine the fee per byte that is needed to get a transaction into the blockchain in a timely fashion. Whether that fee makes it economical to purchase a cup of coffee with bitcoin, that remains to be seen (and may very well vary from person to person).

D&T, you've been one of if not the most consistently reasonable, sincere, and intelligent posters on this forum since I first discovered this forum, and I appreciate you taking the time to write this persuasive argument on a topic that's critical for the long-term success and viability of bitcoin.
staff
Activity: 4284
Merit: 8808
Why couldn't MAX_BLOCK_SIZE be self-adjusting?
That very vague.... based on what?   The hard rules of the protocol are what protect the users and owners of Bitcoins from miners whos interests are only partially aligned.  Sadly, miners have substantial censoring power for data that goes into the blockchain.  I suppose it's useful to have an in-protocol way of coordinating rather than depending on potentially non-transparent back room dealing; but almost anything in the network would be easily gamable by miners. There are some things that I think are preferable to just having no effective limit (e.g. having a rolling median, and requiring mining at higher diff to move the needle for your own blocks, and requiring difficulty to not be falling over-all for the size to go up) but these don't address half the concerns and potentially add a fair bit of complexity (which has its own risks.). 
member
Activity: 63
Merit: 10
Why couldn't MAX_BLOCK_SIZE be self-adjusting?
newbie
Activity: 1
Merit: 0
http://trilema.com/2015/gerald-davis-is-wrong-heres-why/

Since you content farm lot are all busy copy/pasting the same stuff over and over to each other instead of paying attention.
legendary
Activity: 1890
Merit: 1086
Ian Knowles - CIYAM Lead Developer
Polls on bitcointalk:

- if I agree with the outcome, it's undenyable evidence that I am right
- if I don't agree with the outcome, it's just sock puppets.

Why did this forum get so filled with trolls?

I have never agreed with the use of polls in the forum full stop (and my own forum software does not even have them).

The very idea of putting polls into a forum that "encourages" sockpuppets is ridiculous.

(but let's not go off topic)
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
It's not a binary option. Raising the limit at a moderate pace, so that fees don't have to increase a substantial amount with increasing adoption, is a middle ground solution, that will lead to average fees remaining affordable but not-zero.

There are quite a few constants in Bitcoin that one could argue with, that is what we do. It is however important to do it for the right reason.
Avoid paying fees is not a right reason.

Again, a straw man argument. No one has argued that the limit should be raised to "avoid paying fees". I want the blocks to come against the limit but I want that limit to be much higher than it is. I want the limit to put some upward pressure on fees, but not too much, because I don't want mass adoption to be dependent on end users paying "excessive fees" to access the blockchain.

Exending on above:

It is rather difficult to substantiate an algorithm that would set course for the future, given the huge amount of unkown parameters a constant we have is preferred by occam's razor.

But anyone wanting a permanent 1 MB restriction also needs to substantiate this course being set for the future. The argument for getting rid of the 1 MB restriction is no more speculative than the one for making it permanent.

Given what Peter R has shown:

In response to those claiming that a hard fork to increase the blocksize limit will hurt the miners' ability to collect fee revenue:

The empirical data we have so far does not support the notion that the miners will be starved of fees or that blocks will be full of low fee transactions if the blocksize limit is increased.  If we inspect the fees paid to miners per day in US dollars over the lifetime of the network (avg blocksize << max blocksize), we see that total fee revenue, on average, has grown with increases in the daily transaction volume.



The total daily fees, F, have actually grown as the number of transactions, N, raised to the power of 2.7.  Although I don't expect this F~N2.7 relationship to hold forever, those suggesting that the total fees would actually decrease with increasing N have little data to support this claim (although, during our present bear market we've seen a reduction in the daily fees paid to miners despite an increase in N.)

Past behaviour is no guarantee of future behaviour, but historically blocks don't get filled with low-fee transactions and historically the total fees paid to miners increases with increased transaction volume.

And given that there is no reason to assume that the demand for space relative to available space will be lower with a higher block size limit, there is no reason not to raise the limit above the current 1 MB in light of DeathAndTaxes' analysis on what this limit will mean for end-user access to the blockchain.
legendary
Activity: 1106
Merit: 1005
Here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=941331.0;topicseen 215 forum users don't think the same :

So - they could be all sockpuppet accounts (as this forum supports that).

Any poll on this forum is worth *zero* so posting the result of any such poll has *zero credibility*.


Polls on bitcointalk:

- if I agree with the outcome, it's undenyable evidence that I am right
- if I don't agree with the outcome, it's just sock puppets.

Why did this forum get so filled with trolls?
newbie
Activity: 54
Merit: 0
D&T, I agree with most everything you wrote, many thanks for the interesting research and composition effort.
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