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Topic: Peter Schiff on Bitcoin - page 10. (Read 38915 times)

full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
November 19, 2013, 06:38:02 PM
Added:

Nov. 18th, 2013  Two segments cut here.  First is Peter talking about it.  Second he's talking to a caller. 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.18.13.mp3

Thank you very much for these clips! Please continue doing them.
hero member
Activity: 775
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2013, 06:30:48 PM
To bad that Peter is to much of a simp to grasp such a thing.

Here is Trace Mayer discussing Bitcoin with Peter Schiff in Feb 2013.
LOL!  He's so funny when he's honest which is why I like him.  Well that was last Feb.  I would assume he's learned more sense then.  Thanks!

He's probably doubling down on a losing bet and hoping for something to bail him out.  The funny thing is that he seems quite unable to comprehend what the various things which could save him might be.  Or maybe he does but does not want to pick one.

What's his business, though? If he's just a retail seller and then talking-up gold on the radio, then he doesn't give a shit. I find all this "intrinsic value" crap unconvincing -- anyone who cares enough can do their due diligence and google "value" and find out what the different theories are. Disclaimer: I bought a tiny amount of gold coinz right at the peak of the bubble, after listening to guys like Peter Schiff yelling "zomg dollar collapse imminent! Get ze gold while it's cheap." Now I'm a starving artist, so I'm not making that mistake again. Ohh cheap bitcoins! Cheesy
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 19, 2013, 05:29:33 PM

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, AnonyMint.  Just because you can say it, or even that you have a link to someone else saying it, doesn't  make it so.  You are welcome to your opinion, but I've read over the theory of that mining cartel attack, and I think it's just FUD.  There is more to Bitcoin than either you or him understand.  More than I understand, and I'm one of the people who actually understands how it works at the protocol level.  

Read the linked thread on the Transactions Withholding Attack. I am the one who discovered the attack, and I have defended against everyone who has tried to refute it. No one can refute it. Read the thread and try to refute it (post over there in the thread). You can't.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1011
November 19, 2013, 04:56:31 PM

It doesn't matter how many times you say it, AnonyMint.  Just because you can say it, or even that you have a link to someone else saying it, doesn't  make it so.  You are welcome to your opinion, but I've read over the theory of that mining cartel attack, and I think it's just FUD.  There is more to Bitcoin than either you or him understand.  More than I understand, and I'm one of the people who actually understands how it works at the protocol level. 
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 19, 2013, 04:44:16 PM
full member
Activity: 151
Merit: 100
November 19, 2013, 04:40:23 PM
Bitcoin cuts out the middle man.

Peter Schiff wants to create an electronic gold currency backed by physical gold. He wants to be the middle man.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1011
November 19, 2013, 03:21:19 PM

Crypto-currencies could be used to give gold some of the modern day transmission advantages without even going through a medium with counter-party risk such as an ETF or whatever.

Care to explain how?
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2013, 02:23:52 PM
To bad that Peter is to much of a simp to grasp such a thing.

Here is Trace Mayer discussing Bitcoin with Peter Schiff in Feb 2013.
LOL!  He's so funny when he's honest which is why I like him.  Well that was last Feb.  I would assume he's learned more sense then.  Thanks!

He's probably doubling down on a losing bet and hoping for something to bail him out.  The funny thing is that he seems quite unable to comprehend what the various things which could save him might be.  Or maybe he does but does not want to pick one.

To bad the people he influences might end up co-lateral damage, but I guess that is what happens when one bets on the wrong horse.

I never considered him 'funny'.  He's had the same spiel ever since I've heard of him and I used to listen to his views regularly many years ago.  Pre-2008 IIRC.  He's one of those 'every squirrel finds a nut sometimes' sorts of guys in my opinion and his only real source of success is a shrill tone which appeals to a certain class of listeners.

hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
November 19, 2013, 01:41:01 PM
To bad that Peter is to much of a simp to grasp such a thing.

Here is Trace Mayer discussing Bitcoin with Peter Schiff in Feb 2013.
LOL!  He's so funny when he's honest which is why I like him.  Well that was last Feb.  I would assume he's learned more sense then.  Thanks!
legendary
Activity: 1031
Merit: 1000
November 19, 2013, 12:54:26 PM
To bad that Peter is to much of a simp to grasp such a thing.

Here is Trace Mayer discussing Bitcoin with Peter Schiff in Feb 2013.
legendary
Activity: 4760
Merit: 1283
November 19, 2013, 12:52:58 PM

Crypto-currencies could be used to give gold some of the modern day transmission advantages without even going through a medium with counter-party risk such as an ETF or whatever.

To bad that Peter is to much of a simp to grasp such a thing.

hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
November 19, 2013, 09:27:50 AM
Added:

Nov. 18th, 2013  Two segments cut here.  First is Peter talking about it.  Second he's talking to a caller. 
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.18.13.mp3
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1011
November 18, 2013, 02:35:31 PM
You ever heard of "Gold Backwardation?"  I've only heard about. Someone brought it up in Peter's show and Peter blew him off.

See here:
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFTheDailyBellinterview2013.pdf

I've debated Fekete before in private email. It is all nonsense.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/03/06/gold-backwardation-the-real-story/

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/10/24/gold-perpetual-propaganda/
I figured as much.  So what's the difference between new and old school Austrian economists?  Is new school just a term for Keynsians posing as Austrians?

Oh, definately not.  Peter is no keynsian, although me might be a bit of a moneterist.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 18, 2013, 12:59:19 PM
What is nonsense regarding backwardation? (My guess - markets are so rigged that nothing just matters)

Armstrong explained it:

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/03/06/gold-backwardation-the-real-story/

I figured as much.  So what's the difference between new and old school Austrian economists?  Is new school just a term for Keynsians posing as Austrians?

I don't know anything about that. Fekete is a well intentioned person and also very smart. He just doesn't have the big picture that Armstrong can see, because Armstrong is actually in all the markets. He had a $3 trillion hedge fund, the largest ever before they shut him down and threw him in maximum security prison for 7 years for contempt of court.

Experience trumps and refines theory. Armstrong has experience trading in all markets on a global scale, including gold.
hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
November 18, 2013, 04:18:18 AM
You ever heard of "Gold Backwardation?"  I've only heard about. Someone brought it up in Peter's show and Peter blew him off.

See here:
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFTheDailyBellinterview2013.pdf

I've debated Fekete before in private email. It is all nonsense.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/03/06/gold-backwardation-the-real-story/

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/10/24/gold-perpetual-propaganda/
I figured as much.  So what's the difference between new and old school Austrian economists?  Is new school just a term for Keynsians posing as Austrians?
donator
Activity: 1722
Merit: 1036
November 18, 2013, 02:06:52 AM
What is nonsense regarding backwardation? (My guess - markets are so rigged that nothing just matters)
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 18, 2013, 12:40:04 AM
You ever heard of "Gold Backwardation?"  I've only heard about. Someone brought it up in Peter's show and Peter blew him off.

See here:
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFTheDailyBellinterview2013.pdf

I've debated Fekete before in private email. It is all nonsense.

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/03/06/gold-backwardation-the-real-story/

http://armstrongeconomics.com/2013/10/24/gold-perpetual-propaganda/
hero member
Activity: 752
Merit: 500
November 18, 2013, 12:34:08 AM
Today's show had the best caller challenge yet.  But he waits until the end of the show and they have no time.  Please listen to the end.  He goes on an amusing tangent about Janet Yellen then back to bitcoin.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.14.13.mp3

The bitcoin defenders are poor in understanding here, particularly the first one, but Peter does make some good points here.  Gold cannot go to a use value of zero, while it's possible that Bitcoins can.  Granted, if gold were to drop to it's 'intrinsic value' it would be somewhat comparable to the value of lead, maybe slightly more due to much lower toxicity, but close.  Considering that refined lead is under a dollar a pound right now, that would represent something on the order of a 99.99% loss in value.  "You didn't lose everything, you've still got .01% of your life savings!  Don't Jump!"

While it's possible for bitcoins to go to zero, the only way that happens now is if there is some tragic & unfixable flaw discovered in the protocol that gives Bitcoin it's 'intrinsic value' to start with.  Again, possible; but the tragic and unfixable flaws with using electronic precious metal deposit receipts as an online trade currency are, if not altogether obvious, already demonstrated by the folding of both Egold.com and the persecution of the Liberty Dollar.  Governments will not suffer any competitor to exist if they can help it, but they can't help it with Bitcoin.

That last caller seemed to know his stuff, but was cut off by Peter before he could actually finish the argument.
You ever heard of "Gold Backwardation?"  I've only heard about. Someone brought it up in Peter's show and Peter blew him off.

See here:
http://www.professorfekete.com/articles/AEFTheDailyBellinterview2013.pdf
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
November 17, 2013, 03:59:38 PM
Schiff the Shiller has been at it all year round, and he's being found out.  I think he might turn a corner soon on his stance.
hero member
Activity: 518
Merit: 521
November 17, 2013, 03:57:39 PM
Math is not the strong suite of most people. See below...

I regret entering the earlier immature tit-for-tat debate.

It would be better for me to phrase my view succinctly and unarguably.

Fact:

In the Quantity Theory of Money a constant money supply requires that the economy can grow only if the velocity-of-money circulation rises exponentially or the price level declines exponentially, neither of which are plausible for a healthy economy.

Goldbugs give up. You have no argument.
Fact:
The Quantity Theory of Money is circular logic. It basically says that the velocity of money determines the value of money which determines the velocity. It treats velocity as a cause of human action, when it actually is the result.

https://mises.org/daily/2916

Quote
The equation asserts merely that what is paid is equal to what is received. This proposition may require algebraic formulation, but to the present writer it does not seem to require any formulation at all. The contrast between the "money side" and the "goods side" of the equation is a false one. There is no goods side. Both sides of the equation are money sides.

Quote
This bears repetition in slightly different words. Increased velocity of circulation is not, in itself, even a contributing cause of higher commodity prices. It is not even a link in the chain of causation. Increased velocity of circulation and higher commodity prices are joint results of a change in the value of money in relation to the value of goods. When people value money less in relation to goods, they offer more money for goods; when they value it more in relation to goods, they offer less money for goods. Any change in velocity of circulation is likely to be a result of these changed value decisions: it is not itself a cause of the change in value. The value of money does not decline because its velocity of circulation has increased, though the velocity of circulation may increase, when it does so, because the value of money in relation to goods has declined.

Okay you have accepted my challenge upthread, wherein I stated the only way you could challenge my argument is to attempt to refute the Quantity Theory of Money (QTM), M x V = P x Q.

Above Mises is not arguing that the velocity V has no mathematical relationship to the P x Q ≅ nominal GDP. Rather he is arguing that P x Q ÷ V is the demand for M.

Thus he is not refuting the QTM, rather he is interpreting it one way. And that is one correct way of characterizing the effects of the QTM. However it is not the only way to interpret the QTM.

What he is essentially saying (which is correct), is that the QTM does not guarantee a cause and effect relationship between M x V and P x Q. Rather they just match, but it can't say which variable item in that equation caused the changes in the others.

Duh! That is what the algebraic equation says. It just relates the quantities, it doesn't mathematically say much about cause and effect. It is not like Mises said anything that wasn't already obvious from looking at the QTM equation.

However as I explained upthread, since nominal GDP increased by 5% per annum in the 1800s, then P x Q ≅ nominal GDP, so we can conclude that if P was not rising by 5%, then Q was rising. And Q is the quantity of goods and services produced. If Q is rising faster than the percentage of additional workers per annum, then productivity per capita is rising.

So clearly we can conclude that productivity was rising in the 1800s very fast, because the price level P was not rising nearly as fast as the nominal GDP was. And I have claimed that the productivity was rising fast, because the government was 5 - 10X smaller! Small government is what leads to prosperity, and fooling yourself about money supply won't help you. The outrageous increases in money supply now, are because the government is huge and has control over the issuance of money and has a huge socialism bill to pay.

There is no way to argue directly from the QTM that M had anything to do with P x Q. You could argue that increasing M while holding V constant would have increased P perhaps, yet then P x Q would have also increased and still Q would be the factor responsible for increase of the real GDP, i.e. nominal GDP minus the increase in P.

We can conclude that if P x Q ≅ nominal GDP is rising by 5% per annum, then either M or V or some combination must also rise by 5% per annum. So if M were constant or falling, then V would have to rise exponentially faster than 5%. And then you re-read my upthread posts on why that is not a normally functioning economy. In short, exponential growth of velocity can not physically continue forever. And the faster it is growing, the faster the economy must overheat and correct.

So we can conclude that those who are argue for benefits of a constant money supply have no mathematical acumen. Mises never argued for that, as I quoted him upthread. And gold never had a constant money supply God wasn't that stupid. Even the Parable of the Talents explains what burying capital in hole (i.e. money that is never diluted and increases in value from doing nothing) gets you with God (your talents are taken and given to someone who will use them more productively which is what is going to happen to most of you in Bitcoin, e.g. one reason is many of you will not exit before the final peak and crash some 18 - 48 months from now because Bitcoin is not a currency).

Complete nonsense that a constant money supply is good for Bitcoin, other than it perhaps causes "gold fever" which may increase the price faster into a bubble. It is worse for many reasons. One is it enables the Transactions Withholding Attack. Secondly is eliminates the ability to distribute the coins widespread throughout the economy via a CPU-only proof-of-work algorithm (which no crypto-currency currently has either), and thus Bitcoin is doomed to the dystopian failure for thus due to lack of widespread distribution it can never become a currency due to the chicken-and-egg dilemma.

It is up to you. Make your decision and buy the coin you think is better for our future. If all of you are math retards, then so help us God, we are headed for 666 dystopia then.

I have faith that not all of you are stupid and stubborn. And some of you can learn and make a wise decision.

I don't have time to discuss this more. I am busy programming. Leave me alone. Go on with your individual decisions. That is a free market.

I have told you. I can lead a thirsty horse to water, but I can't force it to drink from a blue colored aquifer because it thinks all water is colorless.

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