Peter Schiff on Bitcoin - page 21. | Bitcointalksearch.org

jag2k2

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Quote

You say "had intrinsic value". Well, I respectfully do not agree once again. Intrinsic value means something inseparable from the whole or part of the property of that thing. So the private keys of "ReplicaCoin (tm)" still exist, yet they possess no value today, hence it's not intrinsic to those bits of data themselves.

The value, if any, was transient, and derived from its speculative use as a potential currency.

Would you argue then that gold has intrinsic value? Wheat has intrinsic value which satisfies our natural need for hunger, it isn't very good though as a currency. I think Gold and Bitcoin have similar values that make them good currencies and currencies satisfy an intrinsic (or natural) need that humanity has to trade things. If people decided not to use gold as a currency then its value would plummet as well.

I would argue yes Gold has intrinsic value which satisfies humanity's natural or intrinsic need to trade. Bitcoin (or any cryptocurrency for that matter) satisfies the same need. Fiat money satisfies that need (albeit poorly). Silver and Platinum and copper and other metals live side by side with gold because they offer something unique that gold doesn't. Bitcoin was first and no competing cryptocurrency has offered anything substantially better thus far.

wamatt

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Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 08:50:10 PM

Quote

Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction. That has intrinsic value.

Quote from: wamatt

Those properties could be said of some now defunct cryptocurrencies too.

Or I could invent some digital bits that have those properties too. There is an infinite supply of those bits and encoding schemes, hence that does not add intrinsic value outside of a store-value ledger.

Those defunct cryptocurrencies had intrinsic value as well. If you are wondering why bitcoins have more value than other cryptocurrencies well that is a different question.

You say "had intrinsic value". Well, I respectfully do not agree once again. Intrinsic value means something inseparable from the whole or part of the property of that thing. So the private keys of "ReplicaCoin (tm)" still exist, yet they possess no value today, hence it's not intrinsic to those bits of data themselves.

The value, if any, was transient, and derived from its speculative use as a potential currency.

Seth Otterstad

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The predictions of mainstream economists are pretty bad, but they look like geniuses compared to famous Perma-Bears like Schiff and Prechter who lose money even when they are right. Peter Schiff reportedly lost some investors 40-70% during 2008. There are plenty of bears who made billions in 2008 betting against the housing bubble, and you should listen to them instead. Austrian Robert Prechter's newsletter has the worst track record of anyone on Wall St over 30 years. These people are salesmen who pitch simplistic ideas that are easy to understand and play to people's fear. Following their advice is a good way to lose money.
/rant

http://www.businessinsider.com/2009/1/peter-schiffs-clients-got-hosed-this-year-too
http://avaresearch.com/avanew/articles/713/The-Embarrassing-Track-Record-of-Robert-Prechter-Part-1.html
http://avaresearch.com/avanew/articles/302/Peter-Schiff-Wrong-on-the-Economy-Wrong-on-Healthcare-Part-1.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oJCOlwZUic
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H2D3J8Jq9hw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUbhAbqKjOo

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 08:50:10 PM

Quote

Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction. That has intrinsic value.

Those properties could be said of some now defunct cryptocurrencies too.

Or I could invent some digital bits that have those properties too. There is an infinite supply of those bits and encoding schemes, hence that does not add intrinsic value outside of a store-value ledger.

Those defunct cryptocurrencies had intrinsic value as well. If you are wondering why bitcoins have more value than other cryptocurrencies well that is a different question.

Perhaps distinguishing between utility value and intrinsic value might serve us.
Can any software have value that is intrinsic or must all its value be use based?
For value to be intrinsic, it ought come from the thing itself.

jag2k2

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Quote

Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 11:41:45 AM
Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction. That has intrinsic value.

Those properties could be said of some now defunct cryptocurrencies too.

Or I could invent some digital bits that have those properties too. There is an infinite supply of those bits and encoding schemes, hence that does not add intrinsic value outside of a store-value ledger.

Those defunct cryptocurrencies had intrinsic value as well. If you are wondering why bitcoins have more value than other cryptocurrencies well that is a different question.

wamatt

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Activity: 85

Merit: 10

Quote from: jag2k2 on June 04, 2013, 06:41:45 AM

Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction. That has intrinsic value.

Those properties could be said of some now defunct cryptocurrencies too.

Or I could invent some digital bits that have those properties too. There is an infinite supply of those bits and encoding schemes, hence that does not add intrinsic value outside of a store-value ledger.

humanitee

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Quote from: puffpuffpass on June 04, 2013, 12:03:57 PM

peter schiff is an idiot who has been pumping precious metals and is heavily invested in them. I knew about him before bitcoin and I would have told you the exact same thing, because it's obvious. end of discussion.

Worthless troll is worthless.

His mortgage bankers speech will forever be one of my favorite financial speeches.

NewLiberty

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Gresham's Lawyer

Quote from: notme on June 03, 2013, 11:18:16 PM

Quote from: canadense on June 03, 2013, 10:29:36 PM

Bitcoins have value, but it is a USE value determined by market forces; he is correct in asserting that the value of bitcoin is NOT intrinsic since the digital substance of the blockchains has no other use than as a medium of exchange and store of value. Were bitcoin to cease being used as money it would have no INTRINSIC value outside of this function, and in this respect it differs from gold and silver which do have substantial intrinsic value.

The vast majority of the valuations of gold and silver is from their usefulness as a store of value (this is the only monetary aspect they do well). Consumptive uses are a very small percentage of their value. However, talking about how the value of something changes if it magically losses it's moneyness seems kind of pointless. By what mechanism would Bitcoin suddenly no longer be money?

Suddenly?
1) Cryptography shown to be vulnerable.
2) Technical innovation by bitcoin haters.

Less Sudden
3) persistent 51% attacks
4) Persistent legal attacks with cooperation of network providers.

Fairly slowly
5) People decide that it is more trouble than its worth.
6) Something we haven't thought of yet.

Personally, I think these are not highly likely but still they are a greater than zero chance.
Much depends on the growth of legitimate use, which is why, like Amagi, am backing the Bitcoins with precious metals, gold and silver.
Physical may always be better for physical transactions, CryptoCurrency has the clear advantage for online transactions.

puffpuffpass

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I'm nobody.

peter schiff is an idiot who has been pumping precious metals and is heavily invested in them. I knew about him before bitcoin and I would have told you the exact same thing, because it's obvious. end of discussion.

notme

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Quote from: jdbtracker on June 04, 2013, 10:35:21 AM

I got a question to counter this.

What is the intrinsic value of fiat money? It is made of paper, some coins of different metals, but most of it is digital.

The M16.

jdbtracker

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Minimum Effort/Maximum effect

I got a question to counter this.

What is the intrinsic value of fiat money? It is made of paper, some coins of different metals, but most of it is digital.

notme

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Quote from: Lethn on June 04, 2013, 06:49:57 AM

jag2k2 you could take it to an assay office or something and have it evaluated if you're unsure, but this is why I acknowledge Bitcoin, even though it's really been designed for one thing it does what it's designed for extremely well without help.

Right. Bitcoin was designed to be money. Gold and silver was not.

Lethn

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jag2k2 you could take it to an assay office or something and have it evaluated if you're unsure, but this is why I acknowledge Bitcoin, even though it's really been designed for one thing it does what it's designed for extremely well without help.

jag2k2

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I bought some gold recently and as I held it in my hand I thought to myself "How do I REALLY know this hasn't been counterfeited, or filled with tungsten or something like that?"

Bitcoin cannot be counterfeited. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be stored somewhere secure AND somewhere that is convenient to access. That has intrinsic value.
Bitcoin can be easily divided down to make a smaller transaction. That has intrinsic value.

One day I hope I can throw away all my gold because bitcoin made it worthless.

notme

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Quote from: Lethn on June 04, 2013, 03:24:02 AM

Speaking as someone who is a learning JEWELLER notme I can tell you these guys are right Cheesy

metals have all sorts of properties like heating points and conductivity, you'll find gold in small amounts on many of the electronics you use and silver is used in dentistry and other places too because of how soft but strong the metal is. Bitcoin has been designed very well and I can't think of much better features to add for it but it only does one thing, if you tried to use it for anything else, it just wouldn't work. You couldn't use Bitcoins for industry and you couldn't even really use them for recreation, they've been specifically designed for the task of being a currency.

Bitcoins do the job of being a currency extremely well but that's the only thing they can do, I think if Bitcoin were introduced in an age where everyone was using Gold/Silver for currency like the old days then it would mostly be ignored save for the convenience of doing international transactions.

Yes, there are consumptive uses, particularly for silver. However, they are a small part.

See the cart here: http://www.gold.org/investment/statistics/demand_and_supply_statistics/
If you exclude investments and jewelry (which I consider nonconsumptive) only 11% of gold demand is for consumption.

Lethn

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Speaking as someone who is a learning JEWELLER notme I can tell you these guys are right Cheesy

metals have all sorts of properties like heating points and conductivity, you'll find gold in small amounts on many of the electronics you use and silver is used in dentistry and other places too because of how soft but strong the metal is. Bitcoin has been designed very well and I can't think of much better features to add for it but it only does one thing, if you tried to use it for anything else, it just wouldn't work. You couldn't use Bitcoins for industry and you couldn't even really use them for recreation, they've been specifically designed for the task of being a currency.

Bitcoins do the job of being a currency extremely well but that's the only thing they can do, I think if Bitcoin were introduced in an age where everyone was using Gold/Silver for currency like the old days then it would mostly be ignored save for the convenience of doing international transactions.

notme

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Activity: 1904

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Quote from: canadense on June 03, 2013, 10:29:36 PM

Bitcoins have value, but it is a USE value determined by market forces; he is correct in asserting that the value of bitcoin is NOT intrinsic since the digital substance of the blockchains has no other use than as a medium of exchange and store of value. Were bitcoin to cease being used as money it would have no INTRINSIC value outside of this function, and in this respect it differs from gold and silver which do have substantial intrinsic value.

The vast majority of the valuations of gold and silver is from their usefulness as a store of value (this is the only monetary aspect they do well). Consumptive uses are a very small percentage of their value. However, talking about how the value of something changes if it magically losses it's moneyness seems kind of pointless. By what mechanism would Bitcoin suddenly no longer be money?

canadense

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Bitcoins have value, but it is a USE value determined by market forces; he is correct in asserting that the value of bitcoin is NOT intrinsic since the digital substance of the blockchains has no other use than as a medium of exchange and store of value. Were bitcoin to cease being used as money it would have no INTRINSIC value outside of this function, and in this respect it differs from gold and silver which do have substantial intrinsic value.

joae1975

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From, "The Peter Schiff Show." He doesn't discuss BTC often but I thought I would start compiling clips from his shows and post them as they appear. It's been discussed on the show many times in the past but I have no idea when. I never thought to compile it. But I will from here on. Peter does not think bitcoin has any intrinsic value. He doesn't believe in it because you can't hold it and use it for anything else like gold/silver can. But he does believe in the principle and idea governing it.

April 31, 2013. Discussing Liberty Reserve and bitcoin.
http://db.tt/eZQSGXNa

Enjoy.

Looking in the archives, found this interview with Erik Voorhees by Guest host Tom Woods on March 8, 2013.
http://db.tt/mOmyDEb2

From June 20, 2011
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTr_hTC90oQ - part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUxyr7cI0Zw - part 2

From June 21, 2011
http://youtu.be/QoopVDjXydE

Europac newsletter June, 2013
See article, "The Bitcoin Phoenix."
By: Andrew Schiff (sounds very bullish on BTC)
http://www.europac.net/research_analysis/newsletters/global_investor_newsletter_june_2013

June 25th, 2013 Peter Schiff show: - Peter is still skeptical...(~1:50 into audio)
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/pa_20130625kusg_low_01.mp3

July 2nd, 2013 Peter Schiff show: Peter talks about the Winkle twins and their new BTC ETF, funny at end.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/BTC%20Winkle%20and%20Peter.mp3

Oct. 4th, 20134 Peter talks about the Silk Road seizure
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/pa_20131004jghf_low.mp3

Nov 1st, 2013 Peter gives his bitcoin bubble speech.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter%20Schiff.bitcoin.11.1.13.mp3

Nov 13, 2013 Peter is at the Money Show in New Orleans. He opens his show talking about bitcoin. I just put the whole show up. Talk continues with callers at 1:13:20.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/PeterShiffShow.btc.11.13.13.mp3

Added 11/13/13
http://youtu.be/0VrB1Ae3xqs

Nov 14, 2013 Today's show had the best caller challenge yet. But he waits until the end of the show and they have no time. Please listen to the end. He goes on an amusing tangent about Janet Yellen then back to bitcoin.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.14.13.mp3

Nov 15, 2013 I cut this show up. Two callers here. The first is anti-BTC, 2nd is pro-BTC. The first tries to say the media promotes BTC, LOL! I'm not sure what media he's listening to. Judge for yourself.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.11.15.13.bitcoin.mp3

Nov. 18th, 2013 Two segments cut here. First is Peter talking about it. Second he's talking to a caller.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.18.13.mp3

Nov. 19th, 2013 Peter describes why gold is real money and bitcoin is a ponzi scheme...in Peter Schiff fashion.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.19.13.mp3

Peter made a Bitcoin vs. Gold Video today 11/21/13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0L7SOPDOvvI

Nov. 22nd, 2013. Peter talks about the news that Virgin Galactic is accepting bitcoin as payment for trips to outer space. He has audio clips of Richard Branson. Also takes calls on bitcoin.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.11.22.13.mp3

Nov. 24th, 2013
Peter Schiff and Erik Voorhees
http://youtu.be/IaBREg5rzlI

Nov. 25th, 2013
Peter Schiff debates Stefan Molyneux
http://youtu.be/mFcTJAQ7zc4

Dec. 2nd, 2013
Peter debates with Erik Voorhees
http://youtu.be/7mUn-d8R98k

Dec. 11th, 2013
Eric Voorhees talks with Tom Woods on his show.
Eric was The Tom Woods show Dec 11th too.
http://www.schiffradio.com/pg/jsp/verticals/archive.jsp?dispid=310&pid=63335

Jan. 10th, 2014
Peter on Overstock.com
https://app.box.com/s/g10742faolbkeq07ih6g

Jan. 27th, 2014
Peter talks about Charlie Shrem and bitcoin taxes
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/PeterSchiff.bitcoin.1.27.14.mp3

Feb. 10th, 2014
Another anti-bitcoin rant. Talks about Mt. Gox bug and how newcomers may be turned off during bust cycles.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.10.2014.mp3

Feb. 13th, 2014
Peter talks about some technical support levels of bitcoin, etc.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.13.2014.mp3

Feb. 14th, 2014
Peter talks about btc prices on Mt. Gox vs Bitstamp. He admittedly doesn't understand why they're different. He takes some calls on it.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.14.2014.mp3

Feb. 20th, 21st, & 25th, 2014
Mt. Gox and Peter...
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.20.2014.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.21.2014.mp3
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.25.2014.mp3

Feb. 28th, 2014
Peter talks about the closing of Mt. Gox. Plus a caller at the end.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/Peter.Schiff.bitcoin.2.28.2014.mp3

July 24th, 2014
Naomi Brockwell, aka "BitcoinGirl", is on Peter's show. Nothing new.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/21580995/NaomiBrockwell_072414.mp3

Sept 20th, 2014
Peter talking bitcoin on his new podcast:
http://youtu.be/lMfoFlJhcck?t=1h5m45s

Added Oct. 19th 2014
Since Peter started doing his weekly podcasts he's talked about bitcoin a few times. On his YouTube video descriptions are links to when he talks about it.

Podcast #5 @ 30:49
http://youtu.be/nYiyQl7O6HI

Podcast #6 @ 45:00
http://youtu.be/Ob8stmxfbFg

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