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Topic: Petition to Nationalize Banks (Read 3836 times)

legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
November 15, 2011, 06:56:49 AM
#44


Maybe for you.  I live in a democracy.

No you don't.  There is no democracy as a national political structure anywhere on Earth.  The US is a federated republic, and nearly all of Europe are parlimentary republics. 

Don't waste time on semantics.  If you say "Property is theft" or "America is a democracy" we both know you don't expect me to call the police or to start insisting that Americans must all get together on every trivial thing. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy

"Democracy is generally defined as a form of government in which all adult citizens have an equal say in the decisions that affect their lives" - where I live, we have a close approximation of that.  I know America has its stupid Senate where small States voters have massive over-representation and you have judges that make law so things are less democratic for you.  But its still preferable to being occupied by a foreign power.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
November 15, 2011, 02:25:33 AM
#43


Maybe for you.  I live in a democracy.

No you don't.  There is no democracy as a national political structure anywhere on Earth.  The US is a federated republic, and nearly all of Europe are parlimentary republics. 
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
November 14, 2011, 07:06:15 PM
#42

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?

You can't end the state.  The most you can hope for is to dissolve your own state and then someone else's state will invade and be your new masters.

That's right "lay down your guns gentlemen, this other "king" and "his" men in shiny uniforms are here to rule us".

 

Maybe for you.  I live in a democracy.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
November 14, 2011, 06:53:36 PM
#41

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?

You can't end the state.  The most you can hope for is to dissolve your own state and then someone else's state will invade and be your new masters.

That's right "lay down your guns gentlemen, this other "king" and "his" men in shiny uniforms are here to rule us".

 
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
November 14, 2011, 06:49:05 PM
#40

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?

You can't end the state.  The most you can hope for is to dissolve your own state and then someone else's state will invade and be your new masters.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
November 14, 2011, 06:29:32 PM
#39

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

I see your wikipedia.org article and raise you a author John Perkins http://www.johnperkins.org/ author of "confession of a economic hit man"

His book is really great and I suggest everyone read it. My socialist college professor made this book assigned reading in her English class. It is one of the books that made me realize that the "state is never moral".

End The State?
legendary
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1001
November 14, 2011, 06:13:55 PM
#38
...snip...

"Profit is exploitation!"

No, theft is exploitation. Fraud is exploitation. Making money while providing equitable return is not exploitation.

The problem is that banks are guaranteed so they take the profits when they bet right and we take the losses when they bet wrong.

I don't think nationalisation could remotely help this problem but it has to be said that bank profits which derive from having the taxpayer guarantee are exploitation.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
November 14, 2011, 05:12:04 PM
#37

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.

Excuses. I know you think "but it's not perfect, that's why it doesn't work" is your answer to everything (i.e. redefine it every time to make sure counter examples don't apply), but this is reality. You have your examples, and they work great, whether you like it or not.

Nothing in life is a closed system. And unless you want to float high above the level of practice all day, you have to come down and try stuff in real life. This happened, and you can't deny it's failure because it wasn't "perfect".

But you will, because you are completely inept at any serious attempt at arguing a point. Seriously, go away, Atlas.

Why are they excuses? They sucked because the state was involved. There is no doubt about it.

You're no better, my friend. You have yet to prove why genuinely free services are worse besides providing pure myths.

"Profit is exploitation!"

No, theft is exploitation. Fraud is exploitation. Making money while providing equitable return is not exploitation.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
November 14, 2011, 04:54:52 PM
#36

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.

Excuses. I know you think "but it's not perfect, that's why it doesn't work" is your answer to everything (i.e. redefine it every time to make sure counter examples don't apply), but this is reality. You have your examples, and they work great, whether you like it or not.

Nothing in life is a closed system. And unless you want to float high above the level of practice all day, you have to come down and try stuff in real life. This happened, and you can't deny it's failure because it wasn't "perfect".

But you will, because you are completely inept at any serious attempt at arguing a point. Seriously, go away, Atlas.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
November 14, 2011, 01:06:42 PM
#35
There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Please elaborate on how a voluntary money material system would starve and freeze anybody. I mean in a direct sense of the word. Why would any market of free people contracting for goods and services (or monetary equivalents) in a uncoercive way result in the death or starvation of anybody?
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
November 14, 2011, 01:06:10 PM
#34

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.

Private != Free market

Crony state-enabled capitalism is not properly incentivized services and goods. Sub-contracting a state monopoly is not the free market at work.
member
Activity: 98
Merit: 10
November 14, 2011, 01:03:37 PM
#33

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?


Just one?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_privatization#Cochabamba.2C_Bolivia

And I know you won't read it, so here:

"In the previous years, despite funds made available by the World Bank to support the public utility of Cochabamba, access to piped water in the city had decreased to 40%, water losses had remained high at 40% and water was supplied only 4 hours a day. Those not connected to the network paid ten times as much for their water to private vendors as those who were."

For water. This is a good example pretty much because it's one of the few "goods" we need to live.
newbie
Activity: 42
Merit: 0
November 14, 2011, 12:57:59 PM
#32
US Government did partially or mostly nationalize some banks during the bailout. They still own 73% of Ally Bank.
I did not know this. I am absolutely dumbfounded yet not surprised.
newbie
Activity: 45
Merit: 0
November 14, 2011, 05:55:08 AM
#31
US Government did partially or mostly nationalize some banks during the bailout. They still own 73% of Ally Bank.
member
Activity: 62
Merit: 10
November 12, 2011, 08:29:56 PM
#30

Quote
Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!

Government guarantees this happens. Can you point to example where government money has not? I would be interested.

Or a example where "free Market" currency has harmed the poor, in the absent of government perversion?
legendary
Activity: 1904
Merit: 1002
November 12, 2011, 08:05:06 PM
#29
There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).

Yay! Then the poor will be guaranteed to starve and freeze as well!
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
November 12, 2011, 05:08:05 PM
#28
There should be no monopoly on money creation. Bring all comers. Let the market decide. If there's fraud, prosecute otherwise let everybody decide what they want to use.

My guess would be silver, gold and some P2P currency will become prominent. But I'd be just guessing. I personally would like to see an energy currency of some sort (oil, NG, food).
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
November 12, 2011, 09:37:25 AM
#27
Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).

I'd wager 99% of the Bitcoin users available now won't be using it in ten years/

Easy to say, but how would you define that wager?  You can't identify how many use it now, you would have to make guesses.  How many users do you think there are?
sr. member
Activity: 350
Merit: 250
I never hashed for this...
November 12, 2011, 07:47:04 AM
#26
Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).

I'd wager 99% of the Bitcoin users available now won't be using it in ten years/
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
November 11, 2011, 01:12:32 PM
#25
Bookmarked.  We will see in 10 years.  My guess is that 99% of population won't be using Bitcoin in 10 years.  Still if 1% is it would be a massive win for Bitcoin (although not being a significant threat to VISA).
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