Physical Bitcoin for the 3rd World - page 2.

BitCheques

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Quote from: hZti on June 16, 2022, 07:40:16 AM

If I think about all of this, wouldn't one of the main issues with the lack of internet connection be faked physical bitcoin bills? If you can not scan a qr code or validate in another way that there is really bitcoin behind it, how would you know that it is not simply a copy or a complete fake. So yes, in theory you could make bitcoin usable for people without internet with this system, but in reality it is actually not possible since you can't verify.

These notes have currency-grade anticounterfeiting technology. It would take at least an official North Korea style hack to duplicate. Unlikely.

The patented time lock technology assures that the funds will be available at maturity regardless of the number of people who hold the bill in the interim.

The bills can be verified at any point with the built-in chip.

Theones

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Quote from: hZti on June 16, 2022, 07:40:16 AM

If I think about all of this, wouldn't one of the main issues with the lack of internet connection be faked physical bitcoin bills? If you can not scan a qr code or validate in another way that there is really bitcoin behind it, how would you know that it is not simply a copy or a complete fake. So yes, in theory you could make bitcoin usable for people without internet with this system, but in reality it is actually not possible since you can't verify.

There are many problems in the 3rd world country - one of the main issues is illiteracy and then the access to internet and there is non availability of smartphones to keep a track of the things. So the physical bitcoin won't be successful anytime sooner.

hZti

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Magic

If I think about all of this, wouldn't one of the main issues with the lack of internet connection be faked physical bitcoin bills? If you can not scan a qr code or validate in another way that there is really bitcoin behind it, how would you know that it is not simply a copy or a complete fake. So yes, in theory you could make bitcoin usable for people without internet with this system, but in reality it is actually not possible since you can't verify.

Theones

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Quote from: BitCheques on May 21, 2022, 11:11:55 PM

The Central African Republic has just declared Bitcoin to be legal tender, but 90% of the population doesn't have ready access to the Internet. I am exploring safe ways to use Bitcoin without having to connect to the Internet for every exchange. Ideally a paper wallet could be created in a manner that prevents anyone from memorizing or recording the private key before it is sealed.

I am also exploring a smart contract that guarantees (via escrowed funds and/or multisig) that no funds are released until the BitCheques are opened.

well this is the problem everywhere. People in almost every country are unaware of Bitcoins and crypto. Also even if the people have access to internet. They want to buy video packages to watch youtube video rather than learning skills and understanding what currency will be in modern world.

BitCheques

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I discovered a very interesting patented technology that is very much in line with the goal of having a physical form of bitcoin that is readily exchangeable without Internet access:

https://mandrillapp.com/track/click/30895797/www.offline.cash?p=eyJzIjoiUVdWcTV1dUtmVnBXLWtYY1daVlRHcHhJOHY0IiwidiI6MSwicCI6IntcInVcIjozMDg5NTc5NyxcInZcIjoxLFwidXJsXCI6XCJodHRwczpcXFwvXFxcL3d3dy5vZmZsaW5lLmNhc2hcXFwvI2J1eT91c2VyQ29kZT13d2psa2pzXCIsXCJpZFwiOlwiMDM5OWE1NzY2NzQ3NDFhNGJiZGVmNWFiOTNiYzYzODNcIixcInVybF9pZHNcIjpbXCJmNGFkOTM5YjBiMjE1OTQzZDUyMWNmNjU3Nzk5ZWYzYzQwYjY0Njg3XCJdfSJ9

If you can find any bug in this note, let me know. I will be investigating it in detail. It looks like a lot of thought has been put into this technology.

BitCheques

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Adapt the keypair generator to a 3d printer that prints the private key QR inside and forgets it immediately as the card is printed. The public QR can be printed on the top (4th) layer along with an anti-counterfeiting device of some sort. The inner QR code can only be accessed once. Here is a basic thingiverse QR:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:46884

This would solve both the durability and privacy problems.

Putting this mechanism inside of a solar powered vending machine could open the possibility of selling BitCheques in the 3rd world - and elsewhere. It may even be patentable.

Anyone interested?

BitCheques

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Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 25, 2022, 02:07:15 AM

I find this a better path, although, yes, you have to do proper research here too.
I think that you can easily require a smartphone with NFC, it may be easier for everybody. I don't know though if only the merchant has to have the hardware, or will the customer have to have it too (in order to avoid troubles).

Satochip based hardware wallet works on NFC and its companion code is open source. Although I can guess it's not 100% what you need, you may gather some knowledge also from taking a look there. Just an idea...

A plastic trifold card could be laser-etched and sealed automatically instead of printing on paper. A mini laser engraver can be purchased for under $200:

https://m.geekbuying.com/item/DAJA-DJ6-Mini-Laser-Engraver--496695.html?Currency=USD&matchtype=e&device=m&msclkid=8b00561be227195b138c349484fd34a0&utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Shopping%20US&utm_term=4575617652408320&utm_content=best%20seller&ref=w

The nfc chip can be added in a later edition.

BitCheques

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Quote from: leea-1334 on May 25, 2022, 12:20:59 AM

Dollar bills can be more secure as the tech to print it is much higher,,, we are talking material and I thought something like radio is underused layer that has high access in undeveloped places.

Here's an interesting article about btc via ham.

https://news.bitcoin.com/no-internet-no-problem-how-to-send-bitcoin-by-amateur-radio/

Here's a satellite transceiver for $150:

https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/satellite-transceiver-breakout---swarm-m138---hookup-guide/all

Swarm charges $5/mo per location.

CAR requires ham operators to be licensed:

https://www.qsl.net/oh2mcn/tl8.htm

Hopefully Sango will waive this for btc.

Here's an interesting history of physical bitcoin to November 2020:

https://bcmint.com/blogs/news/history-of-physical-bitcoin

To my knowledge, all of these coins are preloaded.

BitCheques

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CAR'S Sango Project seeks to make crypto "accessible to all".

https://cointelegraph.com/news/central-african-republic-to-launch-official-crypto-hub-sango

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: BitCheques on May 24, 2022, 07:30:18 AM

I like the durability of credit cards, but in the target market, vendors are not equipped for any electronic equipment. The bolt card seems to require a companion electronic wallet.

I find this a better path, although, yes, you have to do proper research here too.
I think that you can easily require a smartphone with NFC, it may be easier for everybody. I don't know though if only the merchant has to have the hardware, or will the customer have to have it too (in order to avoid troubles).

Satochip based hardware wallet works on NFC and its companion code is open source. Although I can guess it's not 100% what you need, you may gather some knowledge also from taking a look there. Just an idea...

leea-1334

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Temporary forum vacation

Quote from: NeuroticFish on May 24, 2022, 02:27:26 AM

I've read about this in the past, but now the site seems to be down: https://satoshi.radio.br/
but I've found a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20220405084343/https://satoshi.radio.br/wp/

Another one I've found and it's the first time I see it is https://txtenna.com/

Also don't forget the Opendime-like solutions as physical replacements for Bitcoin, although they're a bit expensive.

Amazing,,, even I did not know of this and figures that somebody already thought about it. Radio in Brazil, it totally makes sense.

Quote from: BitCheques on May 24, 2022, 04:30:11 AM

Broadcasting transactions over the radio seems like a step backward. How would this increase privacy?

Dollar bills (which are currently used) are paper too. Let's take currency evolution one step at a time.

I think privacy is something to figure out later,,, we want people to use them first. And if we are talking Africa then people are pretty 'private' already being many unelectronically documented

Dollar bills can be more secure as the tech to print it is much higher,,, we are talking material and I thought something like radio is underused layer that has high access in undeveloped places.

BitCheques

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I like the durability of credit cards, but in the target market, vendors are not equipped for any electronic equipment. The bolt card seems to require a companion electronic wallet. Any nfc gurus out there?

nullama

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After reading about the Bolt Card, which is basically an NFC card with an LNURL-Withdraw link stored in it, I'm wondering if it would be possible to mass produce coins or bills with cheap NFC in them so that the value of the physical thing is almost zero, but it holds certain amount of Bitcoin, verifiable somehow.

This solution probably will require some third party that basically escrows the funds, but if that's possible, then you would be able to trade bitcoin offline basically by just passing around those NFC enabled coins/bills.

I'm not sure if it would be possible to somehow confirm that the NFC holds certain amount of Bitcoin offline, but at a minimum it should be possible to check with an Internet connected phone, which are common in the developing world. Also it could be a device, like an ATM for example, shared among a group of people that could just go there to verify their coins/bills, without the need for them to have an internet connected device themselves.

I think this could be potentially more secure than a simple QR code printed out, since there are specialized NFC chips that protect for certain known attacks.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: BitCheques on May 24, 2022, 04:30:11 AM

Broadcasting transactions over the radio seems like a step backward. How would this increase privacy?

Dollar bills (which are currently used) are paper too. Let's take currency evolution one step at a time.

BitCheques are folded, sealed, and laminated (with the private key hidden inside). All this could eventually be done on a self-contained machine. But that would be phase 2. Having a storable paper wallet is an improvement over not having access to bitcoin at all. Making it into a physically exchangeable note is the bigger challenge (financially - not technologically). Hoppers, folders, and laminators are available off the shelf.

Dollar bills are indeed paper too (special paper, still, OK). Just Dollar bills are IOU papers.
From my understanding BitCheques are something different and no matter how you fold and laminate the paper, somebody may counterfeit it. Since they are not IOU, when one will try to spend the underlying bitcoin and will see they were already spent, it won't be pretty.

But, again, I might have missed something, since the current collectibles kinda risk the same problem: somebody skilled enough could counterfeit them or sell them after peeking on the private key. I don't know though how the seal can be replaced with an identical one; but in your case, at least at first glance, it looks simpler.

BitCheques

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Broadcasting transactions over the radio seems like a step backward. How would this increase privacy?

Dollar bills (which are currently used) are paper too. Let's take currency evolution one step at a time.

BitCheques are folded, sealed, and laminated (with the private key hidden inside). All this could eventually be done on a self-contained machine. But that would be phase 2. Having a storable paper wallet is an improvement over not having access to bitcoin at all. Making it into a physically exchangeable note is the bigger challenge (financially - not technologically). Hoppers, folders, and laminators are available off the shelf.

Trustability has been attained by bitaddress. The ability of a Piperesque machine to provably forget the private key is the objective. BitCheques are currently printed offline with the bitaddress tool. The only person that needs to be trusted now regarding not archiving the private key is me (the manufacturer). Having the BitCheques made locally (and automatically) helps to solve the trust problem because it removes the human element. It also negates the need for a supporting smart contract and/or escrow.

Right now, all that is needed is a segwit enabled Piper.

NeuroticFish

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Quote from: leea-1334 on May 24, 2022, 02:06:53 AM

But why do we have to think so extreme from paper to internet?

I tend to agree with this.

Quote from: leea-1334 on May 24, 2022, 02:06:53 AM

I am sure there are other technologies in between that everyone in Africa can access like radio. Electricity I believe is the main problem but if you could have something like a radio that runs on batteries for weeks. I know I could be sounding nonsense but this is my thought and maybe a genius can point it out.

One doesn't have to be genius, the forum has a lot of solutions gathered, just I don't know if they're properly centralized.

I've read about this in the past, but now the site seems to be down: https://satoshi.radio.br/
but I've found a copy: https://web.archive.org/web/20220405084343/https://satoshi.radio.br/wp/

Another one I've found and it's the first time I see it is https://txtenna.com/

Also don't forget the Opendime-like solutions as physical replacements for Bitcoin, although they're a bit expensive.

Quote from: leea-1334 on May 24, 2022, 02:06:53 AM

I mean, paper is great but I live in Asia and it is very humid and well,,, if you had important papers lying around there is someone ready to break into it.

Water and also fire are the first enemies of the paper one can think on, but human mistakes are just as bad - from misplacing it to forgetting what's it about and tear it into pieces and/or throw it away or spill something onto it.

Quote from: leea-1334 on May 24, 2022, 02:06:53 AM

Imagine if there is no internet what is the possibility they have good safes or safety deposit box?

I think that it makes more sense to keep something better than simple paper in safety deposits; from laminated paper to OpenDime or, if you have proper wallet then the seed can be even imprinted onto steel.

Quote from: BitCheques on May 21, 2022, 10:20:01 PM

To continue the discussion regarding the safe use of paper wallets as currency

Maybe I'm missing something, but what if a malicious party create multiple copies (Xerox) of the same piece of paper?
I think that whatever you do right, somebody will get scammed, and from there to ruining your reputation is just a tiny step (no matter the scammer wasn't you).

leea-1334

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But why do we have to think so extreme from paper to internet? I am sure there are other technologies in between that everyone in Africa can access like radio. Electricity I believe is the main problem but if you could have something like a radio that runs on batteries for weeks. I know I could be sounding nonsense but this is my thought and maybe a genius can point it out.

I mean, paper is great but I live in Asia and it is very humid and well,,, if you had important papers lying around there is someone ready to break into it.

Imagine if there is no internet what is the possibility they have good safes or safety deposit box?

BitCheques

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Thanks! This could be a tremendous help!

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Thick-Skinned Gang Leader and Golden Feather 2021

Quote from: BitCheques on May 23, 2022, 12:46:58 PM

Piper Wallet printer

Have you seen this topic?

BitCheques

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I'm trying to reach Chris Cassano (glitch003 on github) to learn more about the security of the Piper Wallet printer's forget button, and to learn more about the history of the project. The Piper wallet was a self-contained Raspberry Pi bitcoin paper wallet generator developed 7 years ago that may provide helpful information going forward.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rOcNWcLLG8c

https://github.com/piperwallet

Topic: Physical Bitcoin for the 3rd World - page 2. (Read 906 times)