Topic: Physical Crypto General Discussion - page 3. (Read 4434 times)

I think that is a bit of an exaggeration. However ANACS does not take the condition of a hologram into consideration when grading a coin AFAIK.

Although if you are only looking at pictures of a coin, all aspects of a coins condition are really hard to ascertain and you really need to see a coin with your eyes to get a good idea as to its quality. The coin's grade is probably the best way to tell its quality because almost every seller is going to say that their coin is in pristine condition.

Holograms is just one of the reasons why I don't send coins to ANACS.

I've seen some 1btc silvers with TERRIBLE holos receive MS68. It's silly. I bet you could sloppily remove an MS68 holo, grab the private key, reapply the holo with a dab of glue, resubmit it, and ANACS would still give it an MS68.

Great thread and some interesting reading.

What are peoples thoughts on how the condition of the hologram affects the coins value?

My thoughts are that the hologram forms part of a crypto coin and any damage/wear to the hologram will lower its value.

I know ANACS grade the coin only and do not consider the condition of the hologram - but for me if you have 2 MS68 graded coins, one with perfect hologram and the other with visible wear on the hologram,  I'd much prefer the perfect hologram coin.

First, thanks nubbins for starting this discussion. It was sorely needed especially after mucking up one of Blazed's threads.

My opinion on sending coins in for grading... flips are fine and what the graders prefer. Just use new, clean, high quality, non-PVC flips (saflip is a solid choice). Plus plenty of rubber bands and excessive bubble wrap to keep everything super tight and safe in transit.

As far as re-grading coins goes, it works, sometimes. I've dealt with re-grading Cas coins thru ANACS as well as more traditional coins like Morgans and pre-33 gold coins thru NGC/PCGS and had mixed results. Sometimes higher, sometimes lower, sometimes consistent. Sometimes 3-4 grade point difference  . Following TheAnalogKids comment, I have also turned a hundred dollar coin into a thousand dollar coin simply by resubmitting it. And I've experienced the opposite direction. But as far as I can tell, all graders either do not keep track of previous submissions or simply do not care (they get their cut regardless).

If they're in flips I'll transfer them to a plastic 2x2 snaplock holder (lighthouse, BCT, etc), or if they're in an airtite already I'll leave it in there.

They say to put them in 2x2's, but I've never been comfortable with them, especially with proof coins.  The thought of rubbing in the flip during transit just cringes me out.

However, be noted that whatever you send them the coins in, you will never get back, so it's a loss.  Some folks submit in such bulk that they can't afford to do the airtites or plastic holders as it's too expensive, but for just a few coins I like the extra protection.

They ask for the coins in mylar flips and suggest plenty of extra packaging too.

Thanks everyone - as a newbie to these physical coins, i'm loving all this info. 

One question though, after finding blazedout's example anacs form - how do you all ship the coin(s)? Airtights? Nothing? Packing tips, info for newbies?

Thanks again.

Correct.  You crack the slab on your own and resubmit the raw coin.

They may, or they may not.  I don't know what information ANACS keeps in their database, whether they'll record the firstbits or not.  But either way it doesn't matter.  Why does ANACS (or any of them) care if the coin was submitted 1 time or 100 times?  They'll grade it 100 times, and give you the same grade 100 times, or not.  They still get paid 100 times...

Also, while ANACS the company might keep a record, chances are the graders won't remember a particular coin or address unless it's particularly memorable (1BTC1234 for example).  Remember there's many graders, each coin sees usually at least 2, as many as 5, and they go through so many coins they won't remember seeing a coin again unless it's back the same or next day to the same exact grader.  A grader may see well over a hundred coins in a single day (at our coin service level), they usually take less than a minute for each coin then pass it onto the next grader for their input.  The graders keep notes only enough to make their grade scores, and verify the bits are correct.  The labels are done by a different department completely, who then enter whatever info is needed into the computer systems.

Figure this - suppose you had the coin graded, then you sell it.  The next person doesn't like slabs and cracks it out and puts it in an airtite or an album (don't laugh, this happens all the time with "regular" coins, there are people so anti-slab they'll crack them and "free them" from the "plastic jail" they are in).  Then he sells it to someone else, who wants it graded.  They send it in and it gets graded again, getting the same grade.  ANACS doesn't really know if it's the same person submitting the same coin or not (could be your local coin dealer doing it for you, etc), and again, probably doesn't care.

For anyone looking to keep the coin in their collection, I'd agree with you, it generally doesn't make much sense to crack and resubmit - just buy the higher grade in the first place.  That is, unless it's a really rare expensive coin which you can't afford the higher grade.  This is common - I've cracked coins when the difference in the next grade up is several hundred dollars, hoping I've judged it correctly and it will grade higher and I don't have to spend the difference.  Many people do.

But, anyone cracking a slab isn't really concerned about the guarantee.  They're purposely gambling to try to get that higher grade.  The guarantee is worthless to them at that point.  If they are sure it will grade better they'll do it and if it works out it's usually very rewarding when sold.

Me as well.  I've successfully cracked and resubmitted many coins.  One time turned a $300 coin into a $1500 coin after it came back a half grade higher.

I always crack myself and re-submit raw, and I recommend it to folks instead of sending it still in the slab.  However, it's extremely easy to damage a coin doing it yourself, so it takes practice - do it on a cheap ass coin first...   .  I've caught the coin on a jagged piece of the slab a few times, sometimes getting lucky and other times paying for it dearly.  Just gotta be patient and careful...

No clue if they keep track or not, but I know for a fact breaking slabs can get better grades. I have done this more times than once...

If you pay for verification service (which you should) then the first bits may get placed on the slab, in which case they would almost certainly have some kind of record of it when you send it in a second time.

The major risk of removing the coins from their slabs is that once you do this, you are loosing ANACS's guarantee that their grade is accurate. If you submit a coin as a crossover to ANACS and if they come back with a lower grade then you will be compensated for their original error. This means the worse case scenario that will happen when you resubmit a coin is that it gets the same grade, and a better case scenario is that it's grade gets bumped up one or two notches.

Man what a business model they have going...pay me $20-$25 and if you dont like the outcome...send me $20-$25 and I will do it again for you....im in the wrong business need to set up a coin grading service. 

So just to confirm ...

Thats cracking crypto coin slabs (with uniquely identifiable addresses), and resubmitting them ? (so ANACS dont keep a record of the addresses they have graded ?)

If so, very much worth knowing. I have a few that I feel have been harshly judged

Agreed it has worked well for me in the past. I still am a firm believer in cracking the slabs before I submit though.

All coins are removed from their holders (slabs, 2x2's, airtites, whatever) before they get to the graders.  This prevents any bias from a lower grade, or from a competing company.

Slab cracking and resubmitting is very common.  And you'd be surprised how effective it can be. 

Crack the slabs it is really easy to do without damaging the coins. All you need is a large flathead screw driver...I have cracked many slabs 

It makes no sense to send an already slabbed coin to ANACs because there is a 99% chance you'll receive exactly the same one back. If it's already been assigned a grade by one of their experts, it's only going to look bad for them if they send it back with a higher number. I'm surprised anyone has gotten away with it, thought they'd keep a record of previous gradings.

If one were to resubmit graded coins, is it better to leave them in the holders or would it be better to crack them out of the Anacs holders?  I wonder if graders would be swayed by seeing the existing grade, but they could always grade worse the second time.

Nubbins, great thread idea and thanks for adding this summary above - it sums it up perfectly. I was more or less looking for acceptance of my "preferred" approach as a useful option rather than complete dismissal of it.

On to more relevant comments...regarding ANACS grades being high recently. This does seem to be the trend. But should we be surprised that so many Casascius coins have come back with such high grades? A lot of these coins have never left roles or have been in plastic cases from moments after they were created by Mike. I would expect a lot of these coins to be in high mint state, especially the silvers.

I'd love to see a pocket change worn AU 50 or something with some real patina, with hologram intact. And I'm sure there are bunch around in boxes some where from people who bought these "tokens" in 2011 and forgot about them.

The condition of these coins is different from the condition of circulated fiat coins, how will that turn the long term valuations on its head?

I agree with TheAnalogKid here. For instance the 2012 5BTC coins are known to have some weak strikes in some areas. Where before this might have led to weaker grades, MS-65 perhaps, now ANACS might recognize that the weak areas are universal to that Series and not count against it so much.

Either way though- I think a Population Report for all "tokens" graded by ANACS will really show what is out there, if and when ANACS ever releases one. Although I believe most of the people submitting these are no stranger to BitcoinTalk, there might be some people out there sitting on some MS-69s and we don't know about it yet.

It is really strange, that so many high grades are coming in, I am thinking about resubmitting all my MS-67 Collection to see if they would fetch a better one...
BTW it all started with a MS-68 0.1 Silver I sold instead of grading... I still punch myself in the face when remembering that...