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Topic: Please do not change MAX_BLOCK_SIZE - page 12. (Read 13023 times)

legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 10:02:10 AM
The less centralization, the better. Let the market decide.
I think we can easily agree on this.

The problem though, is that for me the market is a transactions fee market - expressed in BTC...
While for you it is obviously a hardware & bandwidth market - expressed in USD.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 09:58:56 AM
The brick wall thing seems like a particularly silly analogy.  
There are a lot of question marks between where we are and where we want to be.  It seems imprudent to assume that they will all be resolved to our liking.
It's complete economic and historical ignorance to assume the best way to answer any of those questions is with central planning in the form of transaction rationing.

1000 times this.

I know rationing from my personal experience living in a part of the USSR. Imagine standing in line for 6 hours with your mother just to get meat for Christmas...
I would advise anybody who does not get what "rationing" means and what it leads to to try that. It should be an enlightening experience.

The less centralization & control, the better. Let the market decide.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
June 03, 2013, 09:49:36 AM
The brick wall thing seems like a particularly silly analogy.  People are already competing for block space with fees.  Why are people doing that when block space is effectively infinite?  Why are miners encouraging that when the fees are so meaningless in comparison to the subsidy?  It seems like the car hit a wall of jello a couple of miles before hitting the brick wall.
The brick wall is analogy is accurate because It's the difference between being able to send transactions and not being able to send transactions. Right now all the users who want to send Bitcoins can do so because the total demand is lower than the protocol limit.

Once the blocks fill up we'll get to a situation that changes.  If more than 5000 people want to send a transaction in the same 10 minute interval they won't all be allowed to do so, no matter how much they are all willing to pay in fees. The ability to use Bitcoin will be rationed to a fixed number of entities.

What I want to know is, how much cheaper?  How well will people innovate?  Are people willing to pay enough in fees to keep mining going as the subsidy declines?  What is the actual marginal cost of including a transaction?  How will that change over time?

There are a lot of question marks between where we are and where we want to be.  It seems imprudent to assume that they will all be resolved to our liking.
It's complete economic and historical ignorance to assume the best way to answer any of those questions is with central planning in the form of transaction rationing.

Miners will mine if they can obtain a market price for their services that is acceptable to them. Users will initiate transactions if the price if sending transactions is acceptable to them. Not only is there no need to second guess price discovery by trying to calculate the marginal cost of handling a transactions and using that as the basis of a magic number in the protocol but also succeeding at such a strategy is probably impossible.
kjj
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1026
June 03, 2013, 06:25:21 AM
Virtually every bitcoin user already uses third parties, and trusts them to some extent.  Doing so is a trade, cost for risk.  In the future, I expect it to be even more complicated.  Imagine a credit card denominated in bitcoin.  With that, you'd be paying for them to assume transaction risk for you, while right now the model is mostly the opposite with you getting a discount for assuming the risk that the third party may bail with your bitcoins.
Right now trusting third parties is an optional choice that a user can make. In a scenario in which the demand for transactions exceeds the protocol-specified limit they won't have a choice - the only way average people will be able to use Bitcoin at all is to let a third party hold their coins for them. At this point Bitcoin is dead because it's become just another Dwolla or PayPal.

Bitcoin's main innovation is not that you hold your own dollars.

The mad scientist in me thinks that we should wait until the 1 MB limit is met and sustained for a while before we raise it.  That way we'd get some real world experience with how the system (including the people!) react.
Imagine an accelerating car driving into a brick wall. One day the number of users and transactions will be increasing exponentially and then suddenly the growing user base will be rationed to a fixed number of daily transactions. It won't matter how much the users are willing to pay in transaction fees or how much the miners are willing to provide a higher transaction rate - the network will be limited to a constant number of transactions. It's madness to blindly assume that Bitcoin will continue to be useful and in adoption after its use case is fundamentally reversed.

Right now the demand for transactions is below MAX_BLOCK_SIZE, so effectively we have no limit. What we're looking at right now is how users and miners behave with "infinite" block sizes. Users are willing to pay fees, and the fee revenue grows proportionally with the transaction rate. We don't have to speculate about this because the real data is available. Allowing Bitcoin growth to suddenly hit an artificial limit really is playing mad scientist with what will be at that point a multi-billion dollar economy. Incidentally that kind of central planning is exactly what many people are adopting Bitcoin to getaway from and you're ready to pull the rug out from under them right when they least expect it.

I can imagine all sorts of things.  What I'd prefer is to have some data so that I can spend less time imagining.

The brick wall thing seems like a particularly silly analogy.  People are already competing for block space with fees.  Why are people doing that when block space is effectively infinite?  Why are miners encouraging that when the fees are so meaningless in comparison to the subsidy?  It seems like the car hit a wall of jello a couple of miles before hitting the brick wall.

Where you see a brick wall, I see a ramp.  The way ahead gets steeper when we hit the block size cap, but nothing stops or explodes.  If the demand for transactions stays steady or increases, then on-chain transactions will get more expensive, which makes off-chain transactions cheaper by comparison.  What I want to know is, how much cheaper?  How well will people innovate?  Are people willing to pay enough in fees to keep mining going as the subsidy declines?  What is the actual marginal cost of including a transaction?  How will that change over time?

There are a lot of question marks between where we are and where we want to be.  It seems imprudent to assume that they will all be resolved to our liking.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 05:20:29 AM
I'm not the kind of an empty talker person, as your friend here Smiley

Please stop calling me "friend". I am not your friend.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 05:16:12 AM
I'm not upset, just now satisfied that you have not brought any new arguments to the table to further what was discussed in the many prior threads on this subject.
And will be discussed repeatedly, more and more often in the future, as the block size gets to its limit, so better prepare to be even more unsatisfied. Smiley

Unless the decision is made only among developers and it happens somehow secretly, but surely I hope not...
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
June 03, 2013, 05:10:03 AM
Piotr - did you even bother to try to talk to Gavin about what you think is a huge threat to Bitcoin?
Do you think that Gavin doesn't read this forum?
Plus, if the number will change, it surely won't be by Gavin's decision only, so taking about it with him only would be just stupid and counterproductive.

At the other hand: what's your problem with me opening this topic? Why are you so upset?


I'm not upset, just now satisfied that you have not brought any new arguments to the table to further what was discussed in the many prior threads on this subject.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 05:01:06 AM
Piotr - did you even bother to try to talk to Gavin about what you think is a huge threat to Bitcoin?
Do you think that Gavin doesn't read this forum?
Plus, if the number will change, it surely won't be by Gavin's decision only, so taking about it with him only would be just stupid and counterproductive.

At the other hand: what's your problem with me opening this topic? Why are you so upset?
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 04:57:47 AM
You could have just PMed them if you wanted to ignore any counter-arguments.
Yeah, like you could have PMed me with this message. Why didn't you? Smiley

Your friend did not bring any arguments that would not have been addressed on the previous pages of this topic.
Though he repeated them with a significant dose of arrogance, so he just doesn't deserve my answer.
legendary
Activity: 1078
Merit: 1006
100 satoshis -> ISO code
June 03, 2013, 04:57:37 AM
You could have just PMed them if you wanted to ignore any counter-arguments.

He could have asked Gavin in person at the conference!

It would be a huge threat to the network, and thus to the currency itself.

Piotr - did you even bother to try to talk to Gavin about what you think is a huge threat to Bitcoin?
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
June 03, 2013, 04:53:34 AM
You could have just PMed them if you wanted to ignore any counter-arguments.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 04:51:42 AM
Why did you even post this discussion if you intend to ignore anyone has a different opinion on the issue?
Why? Isn't it obvious? To ask the devs to not increase the MAX_BLOCK_SIZE.
I definitely did not post this discussion to keep repeating myself, over and over again, on the 9th page already.
I'm not the kind of an empty talker person, as your friend here Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 04:51:30 AM
You don't - I do.
Lets just stop here, then.

Why did you even post this discussion if you intend to ignore anyone has a different opinion on the issue?

Let's look at the facts:

  • Satoshi Nakamoto did not want 1 MB block limit. When he created it, it was intended to be a temporary measure.
  • Nakamoto stated even before he released the software that specialists would eventually need to run nodes when resource requirements increased. He had no intention of seeing Bitcoin throttled and turned into a "high powered money" transfer network
  • Bitcoin's original mission was to be a digital cash. $30 transaction fees would make that impossible
  • Bitcoin was never designed to be able to be run through node forever


QFT.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 04:50:25 AM
Yes - let's just assume you have no arguments and that you are wrong.
And then we can stop.
No, my friend, I'm not going to admit that I am wrong, since I'm right, but feel free to keep talking to yourself, if that makes you feel superior Smiley

I'm not talking to myself. I am talking because that increases the probability of reversing effects of your stupid propaganda.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
June 03, 2013, 04:50:14 AM
You don't - I do.
Lets just stop here, then.

Why did you even post this discussion if you intend to ignore anyone has a different opinion on the issue?

Let's look at the facts:

  • Satoshi Nakamoto did not want the 1 MB block limit to be in place forever. When he created it, it was intended to be a temporary measure.
  • Nakamoto stated even before he released the software that specialists would eventually need to run nodes when resource requirements increased. He had no intention of seeing Bitcoin throttled and turned into a "high powered money" transfer network
  • Bitcoin's original mission was to be a digital cash. $30 transaction fees would make that impossible
  • Bitcoin was never designed to be able to be run through node Tor forever

You can't force Bitcoin into something it wasn't planned to be. Bitcoin needs to scale and allow digital cash transactions for people all over the world, not be turned into an experiment on combining expensive p2p transactions with digital banks.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 04:43:40 AM
Yes - let's just assume you have no arguments and that you are wrong.
And then we can stop.
No, my friend, I'm not going to admit that I am wrong, since I'm right, but feel free to keep talking to yourself, if that makes you feel superior Smiley
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 04:39:57 AM
It's the bandwidth and the computing power - keeping only the UTXO does not change much here.

Bandwidth ?  Like 150 Mbit down / 10Mbit up you can already get in most developed countries ?

Computing power ? Like Beowulf cluster you can build at home ? Like Core-I7 ? Dedicated FPGA's ? Extremely powerful Graphics cards ?

I don't see ANY PROBLEM AT ALL here.
You don't - I do.
Lets just stop here, then.

Yes - let's just assume you have no arguments and that you are wrong.
And then we can stop.

Obviously, soon not everybody will be able to run a full node. It will be a job for geeks, academies, non-profit fundations and companies. And that is completely normal.
No - it is not normal.
It would be a huge threat to the network, and thus to the currency itself.


And what is the threat, exactly ?

Bitcoin full nodes are currently run full time mostly by hobbyists/geeks anyway. So what is the difference ?

hero member
Activity: 784
Merit: 1000
June 03, 2013, 04:39:25 AM
It's the bandwidth and the computing power - keeping only the UTXO does not change much here.

Bandwidth ?  Like 150 Mbit down / 10Mbit up you can already get in most developed countries ?

Computing power ? Like Beowulf cluster you can build at home ? Like Core-I7 ? Dedicated FPGA's ? Extremely powerful Graphics cards ?

I don't see ANY PROBLEM AT ALL here.
You don't - I do.
Lets just stop here, then.


Obviously, soon not everybody will be able to run a full node. It will be a job for geeks, academies, non-profit fundations and companies. And that is completely normal.
You forgot to list governments and corporations.
No - it is not normal.
It would be a huge threat to the network, and thus to the currency itself.

People who really care about their freedom is always a minority, whenever, wherever.

We can't force them to care about it, we are already fortunate enough to have a chance to change something.
legendary
Activity: 2058
Merit: 1416
aka tonikt
June 03, 2013, 04:35:28 AM
It's the bandwidth and the computing power - keeping only the UTXO does not change much here.

Bandwidth ?  Like 150 Mbit down / 10Mbit up you can already get in most developed countries ?

Computing power ? Like Beowulf cluster you can build at home ? Like Core-I7 ? Dedicated FPGA's ? Extremely powerful Graphics cards ?

I don't see ANY PROBLEM AT ALL here.
You don't - I do.
Lets just stop here, then.


Obviously, soon not everybody will be able to run a full node. It will be a job for geeks, academies, non-profit fundations and companies. And that is completely normal.
Yeah, you wish, non-profit my ass Smiley
You should have put governments and corporations at the top of this list.

No - it is not normal.
It would be a huge threat to the network, and thus to the currency itself.
legendary
Activity: 1470
Merit: 1006
Bringing Legendary Har® to you since 1952
June 03, 2013, 04:33:26 AM
It's the bandwidth and the computing power - keeping only the UTXO does not change much here.

Bandwidth ?  Like 150 Mbit down / 10Mbit up you can already get in most developed countries ?

Computing power ? Like Beowulf cluster you can build at home ? Like Core-I7 ? Dedicated FPGA's ? Extremely powerful Graphics cards ?

I don't see ANY PROBLEM AT ALL here.

Obviously, soon not everybody will be able to run a full node. It will be a job for geeks, academies, non-profit fundations and companies. And that is completely normal.

I, for one will obviously run a full node.

I actually meant it does not change the "core principles of Bitcoin" like block reward.
But it does change the "core principles of Bitcoin" like decentralization of mining nodes.

Mining is a job for geeks/nerds/hobbyists/companies/institutions and not for average John Smith. Sorry for that.
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