Poker and the shared pot at the table in a decentralised network

DuddlyDoRight

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Quote from: dragansk1 on December 18, 2015, 01:43:16 PM

I play poker online sometimes and most of it on Poker Stars and i notice that there are so much unlogical set up games that are not fair and confused me about how that can happened and makes me thing again about wasting my money although its fucking addictible. Your idea about decentralized network is interesting and i am with you about changing something in controlling this games because it would be great step for better games and chances about the players. The truth is that we can only elaborating that here and no one will make a move about that because it is with plan and strategy predicted business for stealing money from fools. No one will agree with changing something that can make them disfigured and unsecure, belive me.

It's not really that big of a problem. It's a high risk now because certain bitcoin card game app owners have bad developers or no developers at all and are contracting with lowest-bid.. It's a stretch to expect them to put time in to network engineering.

My app and server have none of the issues mentioned here and I know cause I designed, coded, and tested all of it using cases just like these.. I've had plenty who looked like they knew what they were doing try to find a glitch too..

dragansk1

full member

Activity: 126

Merit: 100

I play poker online sometimes and most of it on Poker Stars and i notice that there are so much unlogical set up games that are not fair and confused me about how that can happened and makes me thing again about wasting my money although its fucking addictible. Your idea about decentralized network is interesting and i am with you about changing something in controlling this games because it would be great step for better games and chances about the players. The truth is that we can only elaborating that here and no one will make a move about that because it is with plan and strategy predicted business for stealing money from fools. No one will agree with changing something that can make them disfigured and unsecure, belive me.

DuddlyDoRight

sr. member

Activity: 318

Merit: 260

Quote from: watashi-kokoto on December 02, 2015, 08:09:08 AM

your biggest problem with p2p poker is not the shared pot but to deal unique cards without central authority.

this can be solved by dealing not unique cards and cancelling the game if the same card appears twice e.g. on showdown.

but it is not texas holdem any more.

I just don't allow clients to switch servers at live tables and have a delay for users at the same table on a peer with a later sync in seconds.

watashi-kokoto

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Activity: 687

Merit: 269

your biggest problem with p2p poker is not the shared pot but to deal unique cards without central authority.

this can be solved by dealing not unique cards and cancelling the game if the same card appears twice e.g. on showdown.

but it is not texas holdem any more.

DuddlyDoRight

sr. member

Activity: 318

Merit: 260

I have a network of UDP push servers that synchronize with PKI encrypted data on separate threads and sockets. That's for my poker app.

I actually have accounts on HTTP initially and a daemon transmits to a low-ping peer that sends it on. I use a time-stamp for the sync-check on each peer.

HostFat

staff

Activity: 4270

Merit: 1209

I support freedom of choice

I'm adding updates about the Cypherpoker project here in this discussion:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/cypherpoker-mental-poker-p2p-poker-1206150

I'm not the dev.

kopes18

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What do you think about the website like just-dice? Is that 'fair' enough?

HostFat

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I support freedom of choice

Quote

It took me a little longer than I'd expected but here is the video describing how the early CypherPoker beta can be compiled to support "private" games over the internet:
https://youtu.be/KfeI7f2PD5w
This is not an ideal approach and isn't suitable for any sort of generic "public" gaming, but it will allow you to give the software a whirl using the internet to communicate rather than LAN/WLAN (the current default).

https://www.reddit.com/r/cypherpoker/comments/3o8swq/cypherpoker_building_a_custom_version_for_private/

jordanovmkd

newbie

Activity: 13

Merit: 0

I play poker online sometimes and most of it on Poker Stars and i notice that there are so much unlogical set up games that are not fair and confused me about how that can happend and makes me thing again about wasting my money although its fucking addictible. Your idea about decentralised network is interesting and i am with you about changing something in controling this games because it would be great step for better games and chances about the players. The truth is that we can only elaborating that here and no one will make a move about that because it is with plan and strategy predicted bussines for stealing money from fools. No one will agree with changing somenthing that can make them disfigured and unsecure, belive me.

HostFat

staff

Activity: 4270

Merit: 1209

I support freedom of choice

Another project related to this topic:

Cypherpoker
Code: https://github.com/monicanagent/cypherpoker
Blog: http://patrickbay.ca/blog/?p=650
Blog2: http://www.torontocitylife.com/2015/09/19/totally-mental-poker/
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/cypherpoker/

sacarlson

newbie

Activity: 38

Merit: 0

We already have a released open sourced P2P poker system that's fully operational and ready to play called pokerth_accounting as seen here https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki. It's based on the fast Stellar.org system for uncentralized real asset transactions that enable real time play, and all for free. You can also check out the demo video's https://github.com/sacarlson/pokerth_accounting/wiki/Demonstration-Videos-of-Pokerth_Accounting

maaku

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Sergio, I'd be interested to hear what changes to the Bitcoin scripting system were required to make it work. I'd be interested in implementing such changes in the p2p Freimarkets, assuming the patent issue could be resolved.

Dabs

legendary

Activity: 3416

Merit: 1912

The Concierge of Crypto

In my version (which is semi-centralized) I plan to offer anonymous tables. This means that you don't know who you are playing against in a table of 9 other players. You can't track them, your HUDs won't work, and you can't collude (since your buddy might be on a completely different table and he can't tell you to go there.)

But, dunno if that will work, since some people like to know who they are playing against, or they want a particular set of people they have been playing with for awhile.

And ... my thread is here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=274068.0;all

It's been a really slow game so far. I think people are just lazy to play or something. (It hasn't even started, but the deck is shuffled already and waiting for players.)

cunicula

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Quote from: agent13 on September 27, 2013, 07:32:25 PM

Under a decentralized poker heads-up scenario, I would imagine that hands could be bound to some sort of contract or lock time. If one player leaves the hand for an extended period of time, the funds would be released to the opponent. However, peers would need to operate via Tor or I2P. Without this additional secure layer, one player could simply DDOS the other if they are heavily invested in a hand they can't win. They could then simply claim the other player left the table.

I would also be interested to know how collusion could be solved in a decentralized setup. Even the large poker sites have not completely solved the issue, and give a false sense of security to some degree.

I could live with pure P2P heads-up NL. However, latency may be an issue with the additional security layer. I love fast HU.

I'd guess that you solve collusion by

a) matching people to tables randomly
b) requiring people to pay an upfront, nonrefundable fee to enter a table

Then you hope that the cost of searching for your buddy's table is higher than the profits from collusion.
Hmm... I suppose you set the fee by targeting some mean number of hands before players switch tables.
If you fall short of the target, bump up the fee.

Of course, if you only have enough players for one table you are shit out of luck. Maybe you bootstrap the system with 1v1 games?

BTW Sergio, great project. Very interested to learn about the details. Is there a white paper?

agent13

newbie

Activity: 26

Merit: 0

Under a decentralized poker heads-up scenario, I would imagine that hands could be bound to some sort of contract or lock time. If one player leaves the hand for an extended period of time, the funds would be released to the opponent. However, peers would need to operate via Tor or I2P. Without this additional secure layer, one player could simply DDOS the other if they are heavily invested in a hand they can't win. They could then simply claim the other player left the table.

I would also be interested to know how collusion could be solved in a decentralized setup. Even the large poker sites have not completely solved the issue, and give a false sense of security to some degree.

I could live with pure P2P heads-up NL. However, latency may be an issue with the additional security layer. I love fast HU.

Sergio_Demian_Lerner

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Quote from: Peter Todd on September 24, 2013, 12:19:54 PM

Quote from: Sergio_Demian_Lerner on September 23, 2013, 10:40:45 AM

QixCoin is salable and performant (the block-chain is NOT cluttered with ZNPs). Bet payments are done off-chain instantaneously. Pots (new games) can be created in less than a minute (the block interval is as low as 30 seconds). QixCoin code is not based on Satoshi Bitcoin code (I think it's the first alt-coin built fully from another source tree).

How will chain consensus be determined? (what proof-of-foo algorithm will be used and what are the incentives involved?)

Currently Proof-of-work, plus merged Bitcoin-mining. Possibly allowing both scrypt and SHA-2 mining, with two different dynamically adjusted difficulties. I think scrypt will dominate most 30-secs blocks, while SHA-2 merged mining will ocurr once every 10 minutes. I have many ideas regarding innovations for the block-chain, but I cannot put all the new stuff into the QixCoin since I have to step on some firm grounds! If not, I won't be able to predict how it will work... I will post about how QixCoin works shortly. Now I'm preparing my Ekoparty 2013 talk on Bitcoin.

Peter Todd

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Quote from: Sergio_Demian_Lerner on September 23, 2013, 10:40:45 AM

QixCoin is salable and performant (the block-chain is NOT cluttered with ZNPs). Bet payments are done off-chain instantaneously. Pots (new games) can be created in less than a minute (the block interval is as low as 30 seconds). QixCoin code is not based on Satoshi Bitcoin code (I think it's the first alt-coin built fully from another source tree).

How will chain consensus be determined? (what proof-of-foo algorithm will be used and what are the incentives involved?)

Mike Hearn

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I lost my old Bitcoin 0.1 installation+wallet a long time ago, sorry. Otherwise I'd have had some nice 2009-era Bitcoins in my wallet. Oh well.

jl2012

legendary

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Quote from: Mike Hearn on September 23, 2013, 04:13:02 AM

If you wanted to, you could run games alongside a group video chat to raise the bar for cheating a bit further (i.e. people are not actually sitting next to each other, you can see their hands+keyboard), and you could pay someone independent to randomly audit peoples computers using screen-sharing software to verify they weren't communicating.

In this case, cheaters will tap Morse code with toes.

Sergio_Demian_Lerner

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Quote from: Mike Hearn on September 23, 2013, 11:02:12 AM

Well, that's interesting! Looking forward to seeing what you come up with Sergio. You might get the honour of making the first alt coin that's actually technically interesting (well, NameCoin was also quite interesting I guess).

That said - a patent? Why? Do you think that's for the best?

I patented the protocol before I didn't know Bitcoin existed. I did it back in 2009, because I had to show my thesis to my director and I was developing the first commercial p2p poker security solution for online casinos (Certifiedplay), which was not ready, but I wanted to publish my thesis anyway...

It's a pity that sooner or later patents will start bitting Bitcoin related companies, like it occurs for any other tech companies in Sillicon Valley. But that's how the business are done in the US, so you must protect your investment.. at least that's was what I was told at that time...

Quote from: Mike Hearn on September 23, 2013, 11:02:12 AM

Are you planning to implement atomic chain-trades with bitcoins to obtain your new coin?

Yes, I'm using P2PTradeX, so I'm leveraging on the whole Bitcoin trading infrastructure for Qixcoin trading.

Best regards, Sergio.

PS: Mike: do you happen to have a block-chain blk0000.dat file from the 2009-2010 period? I want to analyze the evolution of orphan rates.

Topic: Poker and the shared pot at the table in a decentralised network (Read 14727 times)