[Poll] Burnins BitFury miner - page 4.

bobsag3

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Owner, Minersource.net

Quote from: nemercry on September 16, 2013, 02:35:53 PM

I just want to be sure everyone reads this and why cryptX does not even has interest in making reasonable prices.

Quote from: creativex on September 16, 2013, 12:59:12 PM

Cross Post

Quote from: cryptx on September 16, 2013, 12:36:51 PM

We can surely do that.

We are very busy making all arrangements for the deployment of the first 20 TH/s.

The design of the board is finished, some tests with a full prototype are still left to do. This is a final check that has to be done before we order all the boards. We could already order the PCB’s now, but we want to make 100% sure there are no mistakes made there.

The Bitfury chips we have ordered are ready to be picked up this Friday! We will have them perfect on schedule.

In the meantime we are also setting up our datacenter, so everything is ready when the assembled boards arrive.

We will be back with more info shortly.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3167570

IOW, there's no incentive to sell products at a reasonable price, because cryptx will simply deploy those that do not sell to his mine. This is what ASICMiner and bitfury are doing as well and it virtually guarantees that products are sold at prices that will not return much(if any) profit to investors.

Burnin please say that you will also allow one Groupbuyer to also buy in bigger quantities from you. We as community dont want to deal with them in any way. And all what they want is to set up miners for there own farm. Yeah what ? Fuck them im really pissed at this stage.
The only chance to get DIY for a reasonable price died with some people who does not even want to distribute miners. awesome.

I have sent him 3 pms now about possibility of a GB for cheaper. Nothing. Not a Peep.

nemercry

sr. member

Activity: 339

Merit: 250

Vice versa is not a meal.

I just want to be sure everyone reads this and why cryptX does not even has interest in making reasonable prices.

Quote from: creativex on September 16, 2013, 12:59:12 PM

Cross Post

Quote from: cryptx on September 16, 2013, 12:36:51 PM

We can surely do that.

We are very busy making all arrangements for the deployment of the first 20 TH/s.

The design of the board is finished, some tests with a full prototype are still left to do. This is a final check that has to be done before we order all the boards. We could already order the PCB’s now, but we want to make 100% sure there are no mistakes made there.

The Bitfury chips we have ordered are ready to be picked up this Friday! We will have them perfect on schedule.

In the meantime we are also setting up our datacenter, so everything is ready when the assembled boards arrive.

We will be back with more info shortly.

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3167570

IOW, there's no incentive to sell products at a reasonable price, because cryptx will simply deploy those that do not sell to his mine. This is what ASICMiner and bitfury are doing as well and it virtually guarantees that products are sold at prices that will not return much(if any) profit to investors.

Burnin please say that you will also allow one Groupbuyer to also buy in bigger quantities from you. We as community dont want to deal with them in any way. And all what they want is to set up miners for there own farm. Yeah what ? Fuck them im really pissed at this stage.
The only chance to get DIY for a reasonable price died with some people who does not even want to distribute miners. awesome.

fex

full member

Activity: 145

Merit: 100

FYI: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.3167973

BenTuras

hero member

Activity: 826

Merit: 1001

My 2 cents:

Cryptx prices are commercial prices.
We want DIY prices.

iikun

legendary

Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:42:31 AM

+1 go troll somewhere else

who is trolling? I am not talking about users who are in this web of refunds from burnin and shenanigans with avalon, only for fresh guys, who are looking to buy hardware- it's better priced than bitfury for 'better' hardware and what looks like better shipping times (for late orders)

go look in the mirror & the person looking back at you is the one who is trolling.

If you are trying to "help" new customers why are you arguing and trying to incite existing customers with your uninformed opinions.

shapemaker

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Activity: 238

Merit: 100

I run Linux on my abacus.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:42:31 AM

+1 go troll somewhere else

who is trolling? I am not talking about users who are in this web of refunds from burnin and shenanigans with avalon, only for fresh guys, who are looking to buy hardware- it's better priced than bitfury for 'better' hardware and what looks like better shipping times (for late orders)

You. You didn't even know what that 70% meant until I told you. I repeat, go read up on the history behind this whole ordeal. Besides, you never stated you were talking about "fresh guys".

shapemaker

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I run Linux on my abacus.

Quote from: tarmi on September 16, 2013, 10:43:05 AM

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:38:27 AM

yes, thats true. However, I feel that if Burnin can get a single chip to 4GH/s then personally I'm inclined to believe that he can transfer that speed to a full board. So for me at least the main issue is price.

But I'm with you on the performance issue, it would be a lot more reassuring to receive clearer specs like Burnin did with the original boards tho

I am not sure about that.

First> there is no chip binning at bitfury. so if you have a board with one or two chips that are dead, you can say goodbye to your ROI.

Second> bitfury's cscape original H board design (with 16 chips) isnt getting the full hashrate.

To add to that, you need to tweak the individual chips sometimes quite aggressively to get acceptable hashrate from them. Also, BFSB had to send more hardware to many buyers because their boards failed to achieve the stated hashrate.

This is probably why cryptx refuses to give any promises - to avoid having to add hardware to purchases when/if they fail to deliver the stated hashrate. In that light, it is very close to fraudulent marketing that he a) refuses to state a clear hashrate guarantee, and b) avoids telling if they will honor the guarantee and ship extra hardware if they fail to make good on the promises.

tarmi

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Activity: 1232

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Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:38:27 AM

yes, thats true. However, I feel that if Burnin can get a single chip to 4GH/s then personally I'm inclined to believe that he can transfer that speed to a full board. So for me at least the main issue is price.

But I'm with you on the performance issue, it would be a lot more reassuring to receive clearer specs like Burnin did with the original boards tho

I am not sure about that.

First> there is no chip binning at bitfury. so if you get a board with one or two chips that are dead or under performing, you can say goodbye to your ROI.

Second> bitfury's cscape original H board design (with 16 chips) wasnt able to get the full specified hashrate at first shot.

iikun

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Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: shapemaker on September 16, 2013, 10:40:26 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: eraziel on September 16, 2013, 10:28:54 AM

I have a crazy revelation for you.
Go and do your analysis on the price of the original BitBurner board.
To simplify the task for you I'll give you some specs: it hashes at 8.8Gh/s and it's price was effectively 3.5 BTC shipped with VAT included.
IT WAS AVAILABLE AT THAT PRICE 1 MONTH AGO WHEN THE CLOSEST COMPETITOR PRODUCT WAS AM's BLADE RUNNING @ 12Gh/s OC'ED AND THE PRICE WAS 10 BTC

The difference is that with the previous board the PRICING WAS TRANSPARENT.
Everybody knew what they're paying for.
Avalon fucked everything, but that's not the point.
THE POINT IS THAT THE PREVIOUS BOARD WAS NOT PRICED SO THAT IT'S 10% BELOW THE COMPETITION
AND THAT WAS NOT WAVED AROUND AS IF EVERYBODY SHOULD BE BOWING DOWN IN GRATITUDE FOR THESE 10%.

If it was available and such a good price in comparison, why not buy it instead?
what is there to complain about?
if there is better option out there for you, why not buy it?
why would this company go and offer you a product 70% off or whatever number you are expecting when you only have to make it cheaper than the next in order to get buyers, in some cases you don't even have to do that

last i checked direct from bfsb was more expensive and delivering in nov for late orders? that seems like worse deal than this.. of course you can always take a gamble on one of these super cheap 28nm products..maybe it will show up in 2 months, maybe it will show up in "2 weeks"

Just stop writing right now, and go read up on the history of this BitBurner XX board and Avalon mess. Your ignorance is showing.

edit: for your information, that 70% refers to the fact that we already lost 30% of the money we paid for the previous product that failed to materialize en masse because of Avalon's delays.

+1 go troll somewhere else

shapemaker

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

I run Linux on my abacus.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: eraziel on September 16, 2013, 10:28:54 AM

I have a crazy revelation for you.
Go and do your analysis on the price of the original BitBurner board.
To simplify the task for you I'll give you some specs: it hashes at 8.8Gh/s and it's price was effectively 3.5 BTC shipped with VAT included.
IT WAS AVAILABLE AT THAT PRICE 1 MONTH AGO WHEN THE CLOSEST COMPETITOR PRODUCT WAS AM's BLADE RUNNING @ 12Gh/s OC'ED AND THE PRICE WAS 10 BTC

The difference is that with the previous board the PRICING WAS TRANSPARENT.
Everybody knew what they're paying for.
Avalon fucked everything, but that's not the point.
THE POINT IS THAT THE PREVIOUS BOARD WAS NOT PRICED SO THAT IT'S 10% BELOW THE COMPETITION
AND THAT WAS NOT WAVED AROUND AS IF EVERYBODY SHOULD BE BOWING DOWN IN GRATITUDE FOR THESE 10%.

If it was available and such a good price in comparison, why not buy it instead?
what is there to complain about?
if there is better option out there for you, why not buy it?
why would this company go and offer you a product 70% off or whatever number you are expecting when you only have to make it cheaper than the next in order to get buyers, in some cases you don't even have to do that

last i checked direct from bfsb was more expensive and delivering in nov for late orders? that seems like worse deal than this.. of course you can always take a gamble on one of these super cheap 28nm products..maybe it will show up in 2 months, maybe it will show up in "2 weeks"

Just stop writing right now, and go read up on the history of this BitBurner XX board and Avalon mess. Your ignorance is showing.

edit: for your information, that 70% refers to the fact that we already lost 30% of the money we paid for the previous product that failed to materialize en masse because of Avalon's delays.

iikun

legendary

Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: mmitech on September 16, 2013, 10:29:26 AM

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:20:15 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote

"Price is what the market will bear" is fine in _normal_ market. This however is far from normal, and there are large risks in investing. See, I used the word invest, since this is very akin to investing, with risks. However currently all indicators point to hashrate rising exponentially for quite some time, so investing in mining hardware is _risky_. Therefore buying mining gear is a risky proposition and the prices should reflect that, and the sellers shouldn't try to offload all the risk on the investors (miners).

price is what people will pay in any market including this..for a live demonstration- look at all who buy AM hardware in the name of 'securing the network' or reselling

If you had tried to buy bitfury chips you will know well about how the price had changed massively simply because the price can be set what they like..no buyers- no problem, mine themselves with these chips and still earn. I don't know why people are more vocal here than in Bitfury thread..is the price not cheaper here?. anyway everyone can vote with their wallet and if they see better option go for that, that's beauty of competition in free market

look, no offense, but you may not exactly understand the history of this. It's not a question of comparing to other companies because we all made decisions based on the estimated price we were given in the OP. To put it simply:

1. people were screwed over by Bitsyncom by non-delivery of Avalon chips.
2. people were informed of the possibility to switch from bitburner to the bitfury version & given a price estimate.
3. people then cancelled the Avalon chips based on 2).
4. price for bitfury board then increased more than 50% (240 euro) and plus extra vat for those in the EU, leaving many people stranded.

It appears not to be Burnin's fault, but that of his price gouging distributor. Be that as it may, it is what it is so pls don't ask people to just sit there & take it. And people are more vocal here because many of us still want to support Burnin & would happily put up with a price increase but not just to line the pockets of an overcharging distributor.
I think 50-100 euro for the distributor is fine, and assuming Burnin needed an extra 40 euros in costs for the boards approx 550-600 Euro would be a fair price for all concerned.

well the problem is not the price only, the problem that we do not know the specification of these boards yet, there is no prove that they got the chips working at 4 Gh/s to get the midle 60Gh/s and there is just no prove for that 80Gh/s all what we know that the board work between 40-80Gh/s which is a crazy and illogical scope... this is why I cant tell what is the real value of these boards, and this is why I have to say that they will perform only at 40Gh/s (the minimum) in this case they are soooooo expansive and the price is unacceptable.

yes, thats true. However, I feel that if Burnin can get a single chip to 4GH/s then personally I'm inclined to believe that he can transfer that speed to a full board. So for me at least the main issue is price.

But I'm with you on the performance issue, it would be a lot more reassuring to receive clearer specs like Burnin did with the original boards tho

mmitech

legendary

Activity: 1148

Merit: 1001

things you own end up owning you

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 10:20:15 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote

"Price is what the market will bear" is fine in _normal_ market. This however is far from normal, and there are large risks in investing. See, I used the word invest, since this is very akin to investing, with risks. However currently all indicators point to hashrate rising exponentially for quite some time, so investing in mining hardware is _risky_. Therefore buying mining gear is a risky proposition and the prices should reflect that, and the sellers shouldn't try to offload all the risk on the investors (miners).

price is what people will pay in any market including this..for a live demonstration- look at all who buy AM hardware in the name of 'securing the network' or reselling

If you had tried to buy bitfury chips you will know well about how the price had changed massively simply because the price can be set what they like..no buyers- no problem, mine themselves with these chips and still earn. I don't know why people are more vocal here than in Bitfury thread..is the price not cheaper here?. anyway everyone can vote with their wallet and if they see better option go for that, that's beauty of competition in free market

look, no offense, but you may not exactly understand the history of this. It's not a question of comparing to other companies because we all made decisions based on the estimated price we were given in the OP. To put it simply:

1. people were screwed over by Bitsyncom by non-delivery of Avalon chips.
2. people were informed of the possibility to switch from bitburner to the bitfury version & given a price estimate.
3. people then cancelled the Avalon chips based on 2).
4. price for bitfury board then increased more than 50% (240 euro) and plus extra vat for those in the EU, leaving many people stranded.

It appears not to be Burnin's fault, but that of his price gouging distributor. Be that as it may, it is what it is so pls don't ask people to just sit there & take it. And people are more vocal here because many of us still want to support Burnin & would happily put up with a price increase but not just to line the pockets of an overcharging distributor.
I think 50-100 euro for the distributor is fine, and assuming Burnin needed an extra 40 euros in costs for the boards approx 550-600 Euro would be a fair price for all concerned.

well the problem is not the price only, the problem that we do not know the specification of these boards yet, there is no prove that they got the chips working at 4 Gh/s to get the midle 60Gh/s and there is just no prove for that 80Gh/s all what we know that the board work between 40-80Gh/s which is a crazy and illogical scope... this is why I cant tell what is the real value of these boards, and this is why I have to say that they will perform only at 40Gh/s (the minimum) in this case they are soooooo expansive and the price is unacceptable.

eraziel

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote

"Price is what the market will bear" is fine in _normal_ market. This however is far from normal, and there are large risks in investing. See, I used the word invest, since this is very akin to investing, with risks. However currently all indicators point to hashrate rising exponentially for quite some time, so investing in mining hardware is _risky_. Therefore buying mining gear is a risky proposition and the prices should reflect that, and the sellers shouldn't try to offload all the risk on the investors (miners).

price is what people will pay in any market including this..for a live demonstration- look at all who buy AM hardware in the name of 'securing the network' or reselling

If you had tried to buy bitfury chips you will know well about how the price had changed massively simply because the price can be set what they like..no buyers- no problem, mine themselves with these chips and still earn. I don't know why people are more vocal here than in Bitfury thread..is the price not cheaper here?. anyway everyone can vote with their wallet and if they see better option go for that, that's beauty of competition in free market

I have a crazy revelation for you.
Go and do your analysis on the price of the original BitBurner board.
To simplify the task for you I'll give you some specs: it hashes at 8.8Gh/s and it's price was effectively 3.5 BTC shipped with VAT included.
IT WAS AVAILABLE AT THAT PRICE 1 MONTH AGO WHEN THE CLOSEST COMPETITOR PRODUCT WAS AM's BLADE RUNNING @ 12Gh/s OC'ED AND THE PRICE WAS 10 BTC

The difference is that with the previous board the PRICING WAS TRANSPARENT.
Everybody knew what they're paying for.
Avalon fucked everything, but that's not the point.
THE POINT IS THAT THE PREVIOUS BOARD WAS NOT PRICED SO THAT IT'S 10% BELOW THE COMPETITION
AND THAT WAS NOT WAVED AROUND AS IF EVERYBODY SHOULD BE BOWING DOWN IN GRATITUDE FOR THESE 10%.

shapemaker

full member

Activity: 238

Merit: 100

I run Linux on my abacus.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: shapemaker on September 16, 2013, 09:44:09 AM

Please, by all means, share your superior method of predicting how the hashrate will behave in the coming year.
Hint: it won't decrease nor stay the same. The only way is up, but by how much and how quickly is the question.

I think you understand well what I was saying. Nobody has crystal ball but If you want to propose that difficulty will go from 206 -> 2312 by feb then -> 158879 by q4 (by genesis block) then there is not much that I can tell you.

So we agree on that the rate will go up? Then what are you arguing about now? Following a simple economic model, the hashrate will increase until electricity costs will force the less efficient miners to quit mining, at which point we will see the network hashrate level up.

Quote

price is what people will pay in any market including this..for a live demonstration- look at all who buy AM hardware in the name of 'securing the network' or reselling

You need to understand investing is not the same as buying and consuming stuff.

About asicminer... if you look at my posting history, you'll see how I predicted ages ago how their units would never ROI and spoke against their prices. You don't need to tell me about that.

Quote

If you had tried to buy bitfury chips you will know well about how the price had changed massively simply because the price can be set what they like..no buyers- no problem, mine themselves with these chips and still earn. I don't know why people are more vocal here than in Bitfury thread..is the price not cheaper here?. anyway everyone can vote with their wallet and if they see better option go for that, that's beauty of competition in free market

This is not so much about bitfury chips as this is about unreal margins on the part of the greedy distributor. Read up on the history behind this, please.

iikun

legendary

Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote

"Price is what the market will bear" is fine in _normal_ market. This however is far from normal, and there are large risks in investing. See, I used the word invest, since this is very akin to investing, with risks. However currently all indicators point to hashrate rising exponentially for quite some time, so investing in mining hardware is _risky_. Therefore buying mining gear is a risky proposition and the prices should reflect that, and the sellers shouldn't try to offload all the risk on the investors (miners).

price is what people will pay in any market including this..for a live demonstration- look at all who buy AM hardware in the name of 'securing the network' or reselling

If you had tried to buy bitfury chips you will know well about how the price had changed massively simply because the price can be set what they like..no buyers- no problem, mine themselves with these chips and still earn. I don't know why people are more vocal here than in Bitfury thread..is the price not cheaper here?. anyway everyone can vote with their wallet and if they see better option go for that, that's beauty of competition in free market

look, no offense, but you may not exactly understand the history of this. It's not a question of comparing to other companies because we all made decisions based on the estimated price we were given in the OP. To put it simply:

1. people were screwed over by Bitsyncom by non-delivery of Avalon chips.
2. people were informed of the possibility to switch from bitburner to the bitfury version & given a price estimate.
3. people then cancelled the Avalon chips based on 2).
4. price for bitfury board then increased more than 50% (240 euro) and plus extra vat for those in the EU, leaving many people stranded.

It appears not to be Burnin's fault, but that of his price gouging distributor. Be that as it may, it is what it is so pls don't ask people to just sit there & take it. And people are more vocal here because many of us still want to support Burnin & would happily put up with a price increase but not just to line the pockets of an overcharging distributor.
I think 50-100 euro for the distributor is fine, and assuming Burnin needed an extra 40 euros in costs for the boards approx 550-600 Euro would be a fair price for all concerned.

iikun

legendary

Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: eraziel on September 16, 2013, 09:57:21 AM

What makes me most sad in this whole thing is that most probably the reseller's margin is MUCH LARGER than the developer/producer's.
HOW FUKING DISGUSTING IS THAT.
AND IF SO WHY DID BURNIN ALLOW FOR IT.
I really hope there's no exclusivity agreement in place and other distributor(s)/group buyers can step in.

well it seems they are tied in quite tight. Also, this quote made me feel that the refunds may be reliant on how many boards Burnin can sell through cryptx. Given that he/they are throwing away a lot of business with this pricing I worry about his refund ability. Silly, because with a small price drop I think most people would just convert...

Quote from: cryptx on September 16, 2013, 09:42:17 AM

We are very busy answering all emails.

The 50% refund is a minimum and Burnin can decide later on what the exact figure will be.
If he wants to refund 100% of the shipping/power supplies, he can still do so.

tarmi

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Quote from: eraziel on September 16, 2013, 09:57:21 AM

HOW FUKING DISGUSTING IS THAT.
AND IF SO WHY DID BURNIN ALLOW FOR IT.

burnin made a mistake when he transferred the whole user database.

I guess cryptX saw how many pending orders are there and made this unacceptable pricing policy.

he left us with no choice:

1. pay for Fury burners at premium prices
2. go back to burnin for 50 % refund

eraziel

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

What makes me most sad in this whole thing is that most probably the reseller's margin is MUCH LARGER than the developer/producer's.
HOW FUKING DISGUSTING IS THAT.
AND IF SO WHY DID BURNIN ALLOW FOR IT.
I really hope there's no exclusivity agreement in place and other distributor(s)/group buyers can step in.

iikun

legendary

Activity: 1062

Merit: 1003

Quote from: shapemaker on September 16, 2013, 09:47:32 AM

Quote from: iikun on September 16, 2013, 09:40:21 AM

Quote from: shapemaker on September 16, 2013, 09:35:44 AM

I'm positive this is all down to the distributor's greed. I've asked many questions about this on the forums as well, but cryptx has declined to answer publicly. He however answered my email last night, but the answers were typical boilerplate, so no point in repeating that here.

+1

With the 24hr window closing in the next 30mins its incredibly frustrating that cryptx is refusing to answer any questions. I have an extremely low order number, which would make ordering more attractive were it not the total lack of communication. If cryptx is like this now, imagine the lack of response after orders have been placed.

Being quiet is all intentional. He/they are watching how many people bite the bullet and order anyway. This does indeed paint a very worrying picture of the kind of person(s) we're dealing with here.

I fear you are right. However, once I drop to the back of the queue that is even less incentive to buy. I definitely wouldn't buy if I lost my spot, even with a drop in price.

eraziel

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 100

I think the key question in my post is whether or not there is an legally binding agreement about CryptX being the exclusive distributor of Burnin products.

If the answer is no then we can definitely work something out.
If, however, the answer is yes, that only means that I'll never own a BitBurner Fury

Topic: [Poll] Burnins BitFury miner - page 4. (Read 22379 times)