Poll: Mike H. Interview - Convincing or not? - page 4.

knight22

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Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:32:55 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:29:08 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:22:30 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:25 PM

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA.

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:18:39 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:11:41 PM

I guess I don't really understand the "frictionless" in frictionless programmable money. There are many kinds of friction I can think of, and it seems like you are just saying censorship-proof in a different way.

I would even go so far as to say that Bitcoin is not frictionless at all. Fees, for example, are one type of friction which is going to be required in order to pay for network security.

Edit: Unless Heam's "network assurance contracts" of course!

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Of course censorship is also aa considerable layer of friction but the legacy financial system has a lot more frictions than just censorship.

The last time you mentioned that Bitcoin is also "frictionless programmable money", I responded that I didn't really know what you mean by that. I was hoping for an explanation or some examples.

Then while thinking about it, I realized that Bitcoin has several kinds of friction, some of which are essential to the operation of the network itself.

Bitcoin is frictionless compared to the legacy financial system, specially over the internet. Of course it has some friction too (confirmation time and fees) but it is negligible if we compare that with what banks have in terms of frictions.

Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:32:55 PM

I still don't know what the use cases of "frictionless programmable money" are, or why Bitcoin is best suited for those uses.

https://openbazaar.org/
http://www.joystream.co/
https://www.changetip.com/

As per example. And that just the beginning. Too bad all of these platforms will have to move to another more desirable blockchain that scales in a competitive manner at some point.

brg444

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Activity: 644

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Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:32:55 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:29:08 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:22:30 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:25 PM

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA.

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:18:39 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:11:41 PM

I guess I don't really understand the "frictionless" in frictionless programmable money. There are many kinds of friction I can think of, and it seems like you are just saying censorship-proof in a different way.

I would even go so far as to say that Bitcoin is not frictionless at all. Fees, for example, are one type of friction which is going to be required in order to pay for network security.

Edit: Unless Heam's "network assurance contracts" of course!

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Of course censorship is also aa considerable layer of friction but the legacy financial system has a lot more frictions than just censorship.

The last time you mentioned that Bitcoin is also "frictionless programmable money", I responded that I didn't really know what you mean by that. I was hoping for an explanation or some examples.

Then while thinking about it, I realized that Bitcoin has several kinds of friction, some of which are essential to the operation of the network itself.

I still don't know what the use cases of "frictionless programmable money" are, or why Bitcoin is best suited for those uses.

Better questions: what friction are we supposed to believe people experience today in their online shopping experience? Is anyone really complaining?

For an average person it comes down to user experience, Bitcoin has the worst of them all.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:16:30 PM

Quote from: coalitionfor8mb on September 30, 2015, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: gentlemand on September 30, 2015, 05:13:25 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people.

Quote from: DooMAD on September 30, 2015, 05:48:04 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people too.

Hey, guys, Shopping is easier done with those plastic VISA cards, they work pretty good, you should try! Users of independent and autonomous Bitcoin network carry both costs: (1) transacting on the blockchain and (2) maintaining its operation. We carry both and it's the sole purpose of Bitcoin existing. This is how real world operates: VISA for shopping, Bitcoin for taking responsibility for your own future.

For shopping on internet there will be a better blockchain. Like it or not. That blockchain will be more useful than bitcoin will ever be.

But thanks for reminding us that bitcoin is the only one in town.

PLEASE PHORK OFF ALONG WITH YOUR EBAYCOIN

Holliday

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Activity: 1120

Merit: 1012

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:29:08 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:22:30 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:25 PM

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA.

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:18:39 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:11:41 PM

I guess I don't really understand the "frictionless" in frictionless programmable money. There are many kinds of friction I can think of, and it seems like you are just saying censorship-proof in a different way.

I would even go so far as to say that Bitcoin is not frictionless at all. Fees, for example, are one type of friction which is going to be required in order to pay for network security.

Edit: Unless Heam's "network assurance contracts" of course!

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Of course censorship is also aa considerable layer of friction but the legacy financial system has a lot more frictions than just censorship.

The last time you mentioned that Bitcoin is also "frictionless programmable money", I responded that I didn't really know what you mean by that. I was hoping for an explanation or some examples.

Then while thinking about it, I realized that Bitcoin has several kinds of friction, some of which are essential to the operation of the network itself.

I still don't know what the use cases of "frictionless programmable money" are, or why Bitcoin is best suited for those uses.

knight22

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

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Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:22:30 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:25 PM

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA.

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:18:39 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:11:41 PM

I guess I don't really understand the "frictionless" in frictionless programmable money. There are many kinds of friction I can think of, and it seems like you are just saying censorship-proof in a different way.

I would even go so far as to say that Bitcoin is not frictionless at all. Fees, for example, are one type of friction which is going to be required in order to pay for network security.

Edit: Unless Heam's "network assurance contracts" of course!

Not sure I understand what you are trying to say. Of course censorship is also a considerable layer of friction but the legacy financial system has a lot more frictions than just censorship.

Holliday

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Activity: 1120

Merit: 1012

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:21:25 PM

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA.

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:18:39 PM

Quote from: Holliday on September 16, 2015, 04:11:41 PM

I guess I don't really understand the "frictionless" in frictionless programmable money. There are many kinds of friction I can think of, and it seems like you are just saying censorship-proof in a different way.

I would even go so far as to say that Bitcoin is not frictionless at all. Fees, for example, are one type of friction which is going to be required in order to pay for network security.

Edit: Unless Heam's "network assurance contracts" of course!

knight22

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

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Quote from: Holliday on September 30, 2015, 08:19:53 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:16:30 PM

For shopping on internet there will be a better blockchain. Like it or not. That blockchain will be more useful than bitcoin will ever be.

I really hope so because I have such terrible difficulties shopping on the internet as things currently stand...

...But I have TONS of options to go to when looking for censorship-proof money.

Bitcoin is also about frictionless money. No so much with VISA. If you can't see the big picture I do.

Holliday

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Activity: 1120

Merit: 1012

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 08:16:30 PM

For shopping on internet there will be a better blockchain. Like it or not. That blockchain will be more useful than bitcoin will ever be.

I really hope so because I have such terrible difficulties shopping on the internet as things currently stand...

...But I have TONS of options to go to when looking for censorship-proof money.

knight22

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

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Quote from: coalitionfor8mb on September 30, 2015, 07:28:50 PM

Quote from: gentlemand on September 30, 2015, 05:13:25 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people.

Quote from: DooMAD on September 30, 2015, 05:48:04 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people too.

Hey, guys, Shopping is easier done with those plastic VISA cards, they work pretty good, you should try! Users of independent and autonomous Bitcoin network carry both costs: (1) transacting on the blockchain and (2) maintaining its operation. We carry both and it's the sole purpose of Bitcoin existing. This is how real world operates: VISA for shopping, Bitcoin for taking responsibility for your own future.

For shopping on internet there will be a better blockchain. Like it or not. That blockchain will be more useful than bitcoin will ever be.

But thanks for reminding us that bitcoin is not the only one in town.

coalitionfor8mb

jr. member

Activity: 42

Merit: 1

Quote from: gentlemand on September 30, 2015, 05:13:25 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people.

Quote from: DooMAD on September 30, 2015, 05:48:04 PM

I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people too.

Hey, guys, Shopping is easier done with those plastic VISA cards, they work pretty good, you should try! Users of independent and autonomous Bitcoin network carry both costs: (1) transacting on the blockchain and (2) maintaining its operation. We carry both and it's the sole purpose of Bitcoin existing. This is how real world operates: VISA for shopping, Bitcoin for taking responsibility for your own future.

johnyj

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Activity: 1988

Merit: 1012

Beyond Imagination

At the end of the interview he mentioned that the communication between devs has come to a halt, this is a problem right now, maybe because there is no clear and efficient way to communicate, or could be caused by totally different view, difficult to reach any consensus

Pretty Romania girl by the way Grin

Holliday

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Quote from: adamstgBit on September 30, 2015, 12:05:36 PM

he never said he wanted to "take fees away from bitcoin"...

Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 18, 2013, 02:55:28 PM

In the absence of a block size cap miners can be supported using network assurance contracts.

Quote from: Mike Hearn on February 11, 2011, 11:07:06 AM

Totally agree that we want fees to be zero for as long as possible (or forever).

How's running that full node going for you Adam?

DooMAD

legendary

Activity: 3948

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Leave no FUD unchallenged

Quote from: gentlemand on September 30, 2015, 05:13:25 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:46:19 PM

You sound like all socialist shills.

I'm not sure what you sound like. I do know it has very little to do with how that real world place operates.

If it happens I hope you enjoy your luxury blockchain and all the comforts, prestige and wonderful evenings on the riviera it brings. I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people.

I know exactly what brg444 sounds like. They have little concern for the real world and only consider the magical world of make believe their fellow MP worshippers reside in. I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people too if those particular lunatics manage to take over the asylum.

gentlemand

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Activity: 2604

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Welt Am Draht

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:46:19 PM

You sound like all socialist shills.

I'm not sure what you sound like. I do know it has very little to do with how that real world place operates.

If it happens I hope you enjoy your luxury blockchain and all the comforts, prestige and wonderful evenings on the riviera it brings. I'll be shopping elsewhere with the little people.

iCEBREAKER

legendary

Activity: 2156

Merit: 1072

Crypto is the separation of Power and State.

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 09:02:00 AM

Quote from: gentlemand on September 30, 2015, 07:51:30 AM

He looks like the type of bloke who'd invite you to stay at his house, throw you down a well while you're having a piss in the garden and spend the entire night trying to guilt trip your girlfriend into moving his cock around. Thus I don't find him a comforting presence.

nailed it

Yes, Heam is by far our most valuable lolcow, and has been all summer.

This last season of All My Bitcoins would have been relatively boring without that stooge playing Wormtounge to Gavin's Théoden.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 03:31:07 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:24:41 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 30, 2015, 03:19:32 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:09:43 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 30, 2015, 03:01:58 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 02:53:55 PM

I think we agree that the block size should be a function of the resources requirement for one person to become a peer in the network (fully validate by running a full node).

Therefore it stands to reason that the Bitcoin blockchain will forever be able to accommodate only a marginal amount of transactions worldwide given the resources load implied. Hence the exclusive, "luxury" qualitative.

In which case, we need a definition for the size/location of the margin. I suspect that outright exclusivity is only one way out of many.

Exclusivity is a consequence of the strict security requirements of Bitcoin.

Fortunately this exclusivity does not discriminate people based on status, gender, religion, sexuality, etc but mere financial means.

Moreover, unlike what some narrow minded people would have you believe this does not limit the benefits of Bitcoin to transactions occuring directly on its blockchain. I'm sure you understand that anyway...

Okay, but I stand by my original point really: using words like "luxury" gives the wrong impression of your actual own position, as you've conceded that you only intend a premium on main chain transaction space, not with off-chain transactions or other secondary solutions. You're not making this distinction clear IMO.

I did think your issue was with my choice of word but I'd like to remind you that it was picked in response to knight22's qualification of Bitcoin as some sort of "commercial" good.

In that context, I do think it is legitimate to qualify Bitcoin as a "luxury" item, an "exclusive" payment network.

If bitcoin goes down that path, another more "inclusive" and affordable/competitive system will take over. The bitcoin blockchain has nothing magical tied to it. If you create an artificial cost associated to its usage, you only create an economic incentives for ALL market participant to use another blockchain that scales better and is cheaper.

Bitcoin blockchain might be the stronger and bigger one ATM but it could easily change if there is an economic incentive to do so.

You sound like all socialist shills.

There is no value in "inclusion" and "affordable". Did you not learn anything from your plastic cars, plastic appliances and rampant planned obsolescence.

Cheap people deserve cheap chains, driving costs down necessarily means driving quality down and then your left with a piece of shit that everyone can use but has no value. This is pretty much a reflection of what is wrong with this consumer-driven society: everyone feel entitled to things they can't pay for.

knight22

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Activity: 1372

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Quote from: Patel on September 30, 2015, 03:32:46 PM

^^ Probably, my facts are probably wrong on that.

50/50 is more on the market participants side rather than devs.

Patel

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Activity: 1320

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^^ Probably, my facts are probably wrong on that.

brg444

hero member

Activity: 644

Merit: 504

Bitcoin replaces central, not commercial, banks

Quote from: Patel on September 30, 2015, 03:27:57 PM

Quote from: knight22 on September 30, 2015, 03:23:23 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:21:22 PM

Quote from: Patel on September 30, 2015, 03:15:08 PM

Reading Mike Hearn cry on the development emails is the most cringe worthy thing.

Go read the BIP65 deployment thread on the dev emails. He is the only one opposing it, and everyone else is showing consensus.

He is constantly stirring up drama, belittling other devs, and arguing like a little kid. So annoying.

Deployment of BIP65 should not be held up just because one dev is giving NACK.

You shall not worry, it won't.

Why not? That's the Core blockade strategy at its finest.

There are way more people opposed to what Mike Hearn is suggesting, then the opposite.

The block size debate, which is completely seperate from BIP65, probably had 50-50 consensus amongst devs for BIP101.

The only NACK for BIP65, if I am reading everyones emails properly, is from Mike. And it's due to hard fork vs soft fork deployment.

What

More like 90-10

knight22

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Activity: 1372

Merit: 1000

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Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:24:41 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 30, 2015, 03:19:32 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 03:09:43 PM

Quote from: Carlton Banks on September 30, 2015, 03:01:58 PM

Quote from: brg444 on September 30, 2015, 02:53:55 PM

I think we agree that the block size should be a function of the resources requirement for one person to become a peer in the network (fully validate by running a full node).

Therefore it stands to reason that the Bitcoin blockchain will forever be able to accommodate only a marginal amount of transactions worldwide given the resources load implied. Hence the exclusive, "luxury" qualitative.

In which case, we need a definition for the size/location of the margin. I suspect that outright exclusivity is only one way out of many.

Exclusivity is a consequence of the strict security requirements of Bitcoin.

Fortunately this exclusivity does not discriminate people based on status, gender, religion, sexuality, etc but mere financial means.

Moreover, unlike what some narrow minded people would have you believe this does not limit the benefits of Bitcoin to transactions occuring directly on its blockchain. I'm sure you understand that anyway...

Okay, but I stand by my original point really: using words like "luxury" gives the wrong impression of your actual own position, as you've conceded that you only intend a premium on main chain transaction space, not with off-chain transactions or other secondary solutions. You're not making this distinction clear IMO.

I did think your issue was with my choice of word but I'd like to remind you that it was picked in response to knight22's qualification of Bitcoin as some sort of "commercial" good.

In that context, I do think it is legitimate to qualify Bitcoin as a "luxury" item, an "exclusive" payment network.

If bitcoin goes down that path, another more "inclusive" and affordable/competitive system will take over. The bitcoin blockchain has nothing magical tied to it. If you create an artificial cost associated to its usage, you only create an economic incentives for ALL market participants to use another blockchain that scales better and is cheaper.

Bitcoin blockchain might be the stronger and bigger one ATM but it could easily change if there is an economic incentive to do so. And no, bitcoin won't be the "luxury" blockchain. It will only become irrelevant.

Topic: Poll: Mike H. Interview - Convincing or not? - page 4. (Read 4964 times)