Poloniex changing their ToS -- Needs verification for withdrawals next week. - page 2.

dothebeats

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Quote from: forevernoob on May 20, 2015, 05:47:42 PM

-snip-
Even in countries with KYC laws, it should be perfectly legal to have crypto exchange. Since there is no FIAT involed it cannot be used for money laundering per say.
-snip-

You said it, it should be perfectly legal to operate a crypto exchange, and if it is legal, then you are subject to submit to the regulations because you are making money out of it, just in the form of cryptocurrencies. A business should submit to these legal rules to continue operating. Also, aren't you aware that bitcoin can be a medium for money laundering because it has value? Money laundering isn't exclusive to fiat only.

celestio

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Quote from: forevernoob on May 20, 2015, 05:47:42 PM

Quote from: celestio on May 20, 2015, 05:37:26 PM

What country doesn't have KYC laws or something akin to it? That's the question.

How can you not care? Bitcoin's value is determined by the free market, so you'd need to have a large userbase actually using BTC as a currency, to even have a sustainable price(If the userbase doesn't grow, it will shrink as people lose interest)

I think Crypto-trade was hosted in Hong Kong.
But there should be a number of countries where you could set up shop.
Even in countries with KYC laws, it should be perfectly legal to have crypto exchange. Since there is no FIAT involed it cannot be used for money laundering per say.

Do you have any facts to back up what you just said about large userbase = sustainable price?
I don't think gold is used by everyday people yet the value is quite high, wouldn't you agree?

Cryptocurrencies could be regarded as a commodity, as it's currently looked at in the U.S(Hence the owner of satoshidice being fined for having a BTC only IPO)

Gold is used in a huge, huge field of products, from jewelry, computers to cell phones, and much more. Without a large userbase, there'd be no one to buy the bitcoins that are mined and dumped on the market everyday.

forevernoob

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Quote from: celestio on May 20, 2015, 05:37:26 PM

What country doesn't have KYC laws or something akin to it? That's the question.

How can you not care? Bitcoin's value is determined by the free market, so you'd need to have a large userbase actually using BTC as a currency, to even have a sustainable price(If the userbase doesn't grow, it will shrink as people lose interest)

I think Crypto-trade was hosted in Hong Kong.
But there should be a number of countries where you could set up shop.
Even in countries with KYC laws, it should be perfectly legal to have crypto exchange. Since there is no FIAT involed it cannot be used for money laundering per say.

Do you have any facts to back up what you just said about large userbase = sustainable price?
I don't think gold is used by everyday people yet the value is quite high, wouldn't you agree?

dothebeats

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Quote from: forevernoob on May 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM

Quote from: celestio on May 20, 2015, 05:06:52 PM

1) When they say decentralized, they mean decentralized at the protocol level and in concept. When it comes to actual implementation though, it is not and cannot be fully "decentralized". Mining pools, etc

2) Having an exchange adhere to regulation has absolutely nothing to do with the decentralization of a cryptocurrency, exchanges are 3rd party.

3) Complying with some laws/regulation is the only, absolute only way that a cryptocurrency can hope of achieving any meaningful acceptance by the masses.

I really don't care if Bitcoin is accepted by the masses or not.
I value personal freedom and privacy.

And can't the "masses" use a exchange based in a country where they don't have KYC laws?

Sadly, almost every country in the world implements the KYC regulation in order to minimize thefts and illegal activities. An exchange should submit to these regulations in order to continue business.

celestio

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Quote from: forevernoob on May 20, 2015, 05:28:49 PM

Quote from: celestio on May 20, 2015, 05:06:52 PM

1) When they say decentralized, they mean decentralized at the protocol level and in concept. When it comes to actual implementation though, it is not and cannot be fully "decentralized". Mining pools, etc

2) Having an exchange adhere to regulation has absolutely nothing to do with the decentralization of a cryptocurrency, exchanges are 3rd party.

3) Complying with some laws/regulation is the only, absolute only way that a cryptocurrency can hope of achieving any meaningful acceptance by the masses.

I really don't care if Bitcoin is accepted by the masses or not.
I value personal freedom and privacy.

And can't the "masses" use a exchange based in a country where they don't have KYC laws?

What country doesn't have KYC laws or something akin to it? That's the question.

How can you not care? Bitcoin's value is determined by the free market, so you'd need to have a large userbase actually using BTC as a currency, to even have a sustainable price(If the userbase doesn't grow, it will shrink as people lose interest)

forevernoob

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Quote from: celestio on May 20, 2015, 05:06:52 PM

1) When they say decentralized, they mean decentralized at the protocol level and in concept. When it comes to actual implementation though, it is not and cannot be fully "decentralized". Mining pools, etc

2) Having an exchange adhere to regulation has absolutely nothing to do with the decentralization of a cryptocurrency, exchanges are 3rd party.

3) Complying with some laws/regulation is the only, absolute only way that a cryptocurrency can hope of achieving any meaningful acceptance by the masses.

I really don't care if Bitcoin is accepted by the masses or not.
I value personal freedom and privacy.

And can't the "masses" use a exchange based in a country where they don't have KYC laws?

dothebeats

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Quote from: ranlo on May 20, 2015, 02:02:50 AM

Quote from: dothebeats on May 20, 2015, 01:57:33 AM

Quote from: ranlo on May 20, 2015, 01:09:31 AM

Quote from: cryptojumper on May 20, 2015, 12:50:51 AM

Quote from: galbros on May 20, 2015, 12:42:09 AM

Poloniex has posted an "open letter" about this: https://poloniex.com/press-releases/2015.05.19-Open-Letter

tl;dr - Fincen made us.

My feelings remain the same, I respect their right to do this, I just wish they had respected their users more by giving us enough lead time to orderly remove our coins from their exchange.

Good Luck.

Thanks. $7,000.00 USD equivalent in a 24-hour period is only when you need to upload docs looks like. So it's absolutely irrelevant at least for me while I am not a millionaire still like the people complaining. I didn't even thought such amounts are withdrawn daily Cheesy

Wow!

In other words, withdraw all your BTC now before it's worth $7k+ each and you're screwed. Or at least that's how I'm reading it.

I also understand it that way. Balances below $2k could possibly be withdrawn without any verification (or am I missing something here?). However, once the amount reached $2k, tier 1 verification is mandatory before you can withdraw your assets.

I thought of something, if you want to get rid of the tier 2 verification process, you can withdraw your assets little by little without raising any red flags from Poloniex. Or will it also raise an alarm when the sum of the withdrawn assets reach $2000? As I understand it, you couldn't withdraw amounts of $2k in a 24-hour period so I think that withdrawing little by little would work without complying to the verification method.

You have a good idea in principle, but the issue is it doesn't work that way. If they're really doing this to satisfy FinCEN (KYC/AML), the government looks at this as tiering payments. Same as how they can lock your bank account if you make a lot of $1k-9999 payments to stay below the $10k that forces the bank to report it to the IRS -- I believe it's the IRS). Same thing could likely be said about cryptos, and as far as I understand, getting hit with tiering (even if it's NOT your intention) results in you basically being screwed without lube.

Thanks for clearing that up. I just thought that doing some withdraws every now and then without an obvious pattern could actually help someone withdraw without complying to verification process. The case is, only Poloniex sees the inside activity in the exchange and not the FinCEN. If FinCEN could actually see something beyond their (Poloniex) system, then it would be very difficult to move out funds and deposit some for trading. I don't think Poloniex would raise an alert to FinCEN if ever someone did some little withdraws without an obvious pattern just to move out funds without submitting to the verification process. Idk, but if Poloniex is really compliant to the KYC/AML regulations, then they will set the bell ringing in case something that I have stated actually happened.

celestio

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Quote from: nutildah on May 20, 2015, 05:02:53 PM

Quote from: NorrisK on May 20, 2015, 04:57:35 PM

Ofcourse this stuff will happen to more and more exchanges when bitcoin and altcoins get more mainstream. It will be required for any registered service, like it or not.

Regulation defeats the entire purpose of a decentralized currency.

1) When they say decentralized, they mean decentralized at the protocol level and in concept. When it comes to actual implementation though, it is not and cannot be fully "decentralized". Mining pools, etc

2) Having an exchange adhere to regulation has absolutely nothing to do with the decentralization of a cryptocurrency, exchanges are 3rd party.

3) Complying with some laws/regulation is the only, absolute only way that a cryptocurrency can hope of achieving any meaningful acceptance by the masses.

nutildah

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Quote from: NorrisK on May 20, 2015, 04:57:35 PM

Ofcourse this stuff will happen to more and more exchanges when bitcoin and altcoins get more mainstream. It will be required for any registered service, like it or not.

Regulation defeats the entire purpose of a decentralized currency.

NorrisK

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Ofcourse this stuff will happen to more and more exchanges when bitcoin and altcoins get more mainstream. It will be required for any registered service, like it or not.

nutildah

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Quote from: forevernoob on May 20, 2015, 04:21:27 PM

Withdrew in the nick of time...
Thanks for the warning guys.

Poloniex can go and fuck themselves.
"we have chosen the unpopular path of following the regulations that apply to us because we believe it is the right thing to do."

We believe it is the right thing to do? Give me a break, grow some balls and move the business to a more business friendly country.

Well said.

Now we need the guy behind Moolah to put in a bid to purchase Poloniex and its death will be complete.

forevernoob

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Withdrew in the nick of time...
Thanks for the warning guys.

Poloniex can go and fuck themselves.
"we have chosen the unpopular path of following the regulations that apply to us because we believe it is the right thing to do."

We believe it is the right thing to do? Give me a break, grow some balls and move the business to a more business friendly country.

ranlo

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Quote from: MakingMoneyHoney on May 20, 2015, 11:50:08 AM

Quote from: Nextgen on May 20, 2015, 11:44:08 AM

they will ask for just name and country or we will need to submit documents to verify those details

They're just asking for the name and country for now. The question is... in the future, if you used incorrect information, will you be able to collect your coins when you withdraw without proving you're who you said you were or will you lose your coins altogether if they require that proof (that you can't give) in the future.

It'll likely be like poker sites. If you submit incorrect/fake information, then when you have to do the REAL verification, they'll lock the account as that means the account was hacked (i.e., you aren't the original owner, who was "Mast Erbaiter").

kazuki49

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There is nothing to fear if you use a real crypto and not a 1984-token

http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/385735/stallman-calls-for-truly-anonymous-alternative-to-bitcoin

spud21

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Quote from: MakingMoneyHoney on May 20, 2015, 11:50:08 AM

Quote from: Nextgen on May 20, 2015, 11:44:08 AM

they will ask for just name and country or we will need to submit documents to verify those details

They're just asking for the name and country for now. The question is... in the future, if you used incorrect information, will you be able to collect your coins when you withdraw without proving you're who you said you were or will you lose your coins altogether if they require that proof (that you can't give) in the future.

They require ID to withdraw huge amounts of money. While you might think you will never be in a position to withdraw that much money, you might find a worthless alt you hold suddenly gets pumped. If you have given a false name, and you get a sudden windfall from a pumped alt you will be unable to withdraw your profit quickly.

MakingMoneyHoney

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Quote from: Nextgen on May 20, 2015, 11:44:08 AM

they will ask for just name and country or we will need to submit documents to verify those details

They're just asking for the name and country for now. The question is... in the future, if you used incorrect information, will you be able to collect your coins when you withdraw without proving you're who you said you were or will you lose your coins altogether if they require that proof (that you can't give) in the future.

Nextgen

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they will ask for just name and country or we will need to submit documents to verify those details

Shrikez

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An interesting opinion regarding the changes on Poloniex;

http://coinarb.tumblr.com/post/119399539544/some-thoughts-on-poloniex

EternalWingsofGod

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Quote from: spud21 on May 18, 2015, 08:05:02 PM

I successfully withdrew some coins today without verifying. However there is a giant red warning that I will no longer be able to withdraw without verification tomorrow.

It was a quick notice, just went to check my Polo account myself saw the Terms of Service were updated a few days ago and came on here to check out what was going on.
2000 for a name seems ok for now but as others mentioned when the process really begins then we will see how those fake alias really work out I guess we will need to wait a while to see how far KYC/AML will be pushed.

According to the open letter checks start at $7000 per 24 hours

https://poloniex.com/press-releases/2015.05.19-Open-Letter

Starting on May 21, 2015, we will require your name and country for all withdrawals. To withdraw more than $2,000.00 USD equivalent within 24 hours, we will require your address and phone number. It is only if you need to withdraw more than $7,000.00 USD equivalent in a 24-hour period that we will require identity verification such as your social security number or photo ID. We are taking these measures to protect ourselves and you from potential criminal activity that could force a shutdown of our services

ranlo

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Quote from: dothebeats on May 20, 2015, 01:57:33 AM

Quote from: ranlo on May 20, 2015, 01:09:31 AM

Quote from: cryptojumper on May 20, 2015, 12:50:51 AM

Quote from: galbros on May 20, 2015, 12:42:09 AM

Poloniex has posted an "open letter" about this: https://poloniex.com/press-releases/2015.05.19-Open-Letter

tl;dr - Fincen made us.

My feelings remain the same, I respect their right to do this, I just wish they had respected their users more by giving us enough lead time to orderly remove our coins from their exchange.

Good Luck.

Thanks. $7,000.00 USD equivalent in a 24-hour period is only when you need to upload docs looks like. So it's absolutely irrelevant at least for me while I am not a millionaire still like the people complaining. I didn't even thought such amounts are withdrawn daily Cheesy

Wow!

In other words, withdraw all your BTC now before it's worth $7k+ each and you're screwed. Or at least that's how I'm reading it.

I also understand it that way. Balances below $2k could possibly be withdrawn without any verification (or am I missing something here?). However, once the amount reached $2k, tier 1 verification is mandatory before you can withdraw your assets.

I thought of something, if you want to get rid of the tier 2 verification process, you can withdraw your assets little by little without raising any red flags from Poloniex. Or will it also raise an alarm when the sum of the withdrawn assets reach $2000? As I understand it, you couldn't withdraw amounts of $2k in a 24-hour period so I think that withdrawing little by little would work without complying to the verification method.

You have a good idea in principle, but the issue is it doesn't work that way. If they're really doing this to satisfy FinCEN (KYC/AML), the government looks at this as tiering payments. Same as how they can lock your bank account if you make a lot of $1k-9999 payments to stay below the $10k that forces the bank to report it to the IRS -- I believe it's the IRS). Same thing could likely be said about cryptos, and as far as I understand, getting hit with tiering (even if it's NOT your intention) results in you basically being screwed without lube.

Topic: Poloniex changing their ToS -- Needs verification for withdrawals next week. - page 2. (Read 7836 times)