Pool hopping... ethical or not? - page 14.

gnaget

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Quote from: error on July 24, 2011, 09:20:06 PM

Nice try. The problem with this is that it assumes things which are not true or not proven.

First, you have not made an argument that a pool hopper is dishonest; you have simply claimed it as if it were obvious. I asked for an argument and you give me nothing.

It is obvious, gaming the system for an unfair share is dishonest. The scenario I described is evident of an example of how you are gaining money while others are losing it. See my first statement, you simply passed over it and refused to even give it due consideration because you have your rationalization in your head. It's like trying to convince a Christian that the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old is ridiculous, you have your vision of the world, and without realizing it you dismiss the evidence to the contrary.

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Second, it is not true that a pool being hopped pays miners in a fair manner. The reason people are able to make money hopping is that the pool offers to pay miners more under certain circumstances and less under others. Thus proportional payout schemes are inherently unfair. It can be argued that if the payout scheme WERE fair, then no one would hop the pool.

Proportional payouts are perfectly fair, if miners were honest. The fact that they aren't means that the pools have to find alternatives. The PPS scheme is problematic, since it pays regardless of a block being found, and the pool operator can lose money. I'm sure there are other payout schemes, and hopefully they will be implemented, but that takes time and shouldn't even be necessary if it weren't for the pigs at the trough.

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Finally, you have not addressed the issue that the miners supposedly being "cheated" -- including yourself -- go out of their way to seek out pools with such unfair payout schemes!

Again, I did, remember, I mine at btcguild where they go out of their way to discourage people like you. Problem is, there are still people who try to game the system, and I find that despicable

Clipse

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Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 10:08:03 PM

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pansylike characters

Hey Clipse If it would increase my edge, I would become one... Grin

Hehe thats exactly my point, being a pansy doesnt bring great joy Wink

Im on the edge of glory!!

max in montreal

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Quote

pansylike characters

Hey Clipse If it would increase my edge, I would become one... Grin

Clipse

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Activity: 504

Merit: 502

Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 09:15:22 PM

Quote from: Clipse on July 24, 2011, 09:08:52 PM

Damn, I didnt know we had such a tightly winded bitcoin community.

Bitcoins is current an arms race, every edge is important. Do you think its all fairies/pixies and every man should get his fair share?

If money is involved, the person who can find the biggest edge comes out ahead and that is what bitcoins relate to atm, trading is the game and value for trading is the ingredients.

As soon as there is more use for bitcoins the madness of finding a new edge will arrive.

We may aswell add a tagline to bitcoins, "The morally just Currency".

Embrace it and stop sounding like a bunch of priests who feel they must confess 24/7.

We all choose what game we play in life. One of the level 1 games is exactly as you describe: "Pigs at the trough". I, for once, choose not to step over everyone else for the slightest advantage, and I disagree that every last percent needs to be squeezed out. People who feel that way care nothing for the fellow miners or community, only care about taking whatever they can get at whatever cost. Not very enlightened if you ask me.

Do you think the bitcoin value will increase and become self sustained with moral(still a questionable statement) pansylike characters, or aggressive market movers? Think long and hard over this. The average joe doesnt move the market, they simply sell of their coins by using the gains in value adjusted by big movers.

By your own example this would be unjust and unfair, the smalltimers are getting compensated for no extra work. Look at it as you like but its the same thing, getting paid more for less work.

I really dont see the point to explain that your argument about poolhoppers walking over regular miners is completely bullshit. I will leave it at that Wink

It sure will fume up everyone some more

error

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Merit: 500

Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 09:05:47 PM

This is how rationalization works: you get a perfectly logical reason why pool hopping is unethical, and your brain filters it before you even give it due consideration.

Case in point:

You start at pool a
After x minutes, you do not get a block, so you move to pool b
the hash rate at pool a just got smaller, you might have been the one to find the block, but now it will take that much longer because you left
Therefore everyone who stayed at pool a now waits longer to get that block, and while you got 10% more, that 10% is split as a loss to everyone else

Thus you are taking money from honest miners.

People who pool hop are not extra savvy, you are merely taking someone else's math and someone else's code and saying: look how smart I am, I get an extra 10% yay!

I am now wondering just how much money I am losing because of pool hoppers, thanks guys

Nice try. The problem with this is that it assumes things which are not true or not proven.

First, you have not made an argument that a pool hopper is dishonest; you have simply claimed it as if it were obvious. I asked for an argument and you give me nothing.

Second, it is not true that a pool being hopped pays miners in a fair manner. The reason people are able to make money hopping is that the pool offers to pay miners more under certain circumstances and less under others. Thus proportional payout schemes are inherently unfair. It can be argued that if the payout scheme WERE fair, then no one would hop the pool.

Finally, you have not addressed the issue that the miners supposedly being "cheated" -- including yourself -- go out of their way to seek out pools with such unfair payout schemes!

gnaget

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 102

Quote from: Clipse on July 24, 2011, 09:08:52 PM

Damn, I didnt know we had such a tightly winded bitcoin community.

Bitcoins is current an arms race, every edge is important. Do you think its all fairies/pixies and every man should get his fair share?

If money is involved, the person who can find the biggest edge comes out ahead and that is what bitcoins relate to atm, trading is the game and value for trading is the ingredients.

As soon as there is more use for bitcoins the madness of finding a new edge will arrive.

We may aswell add a tagline to bitcoins, "The morally just Currency".

Embrace it and stop sounding like a bunch of priests who feel they must confess 24/7.

We all choose what game we play in life. One of the level 1 games is exactly as you describe: "Pigs at the trough". I, for once, choose not to step over everyone else for the slightest advantage, and I disagree that every last percent needs to be squeezed out. People who feel that way care nothing for the fellow miners or community, only care about taking whatever they can get at whatever cost. Not very enlightened if you ask me.

Clipse

hero member

Activity: 504

Merit: 502

Damn, I didnt know we had such a tightly winded bitcoin community.

Bitcoins is current an arms race, every edge is important. Do you think its all fairies/pixies and every man should get his fair share?

If money is involved, the person who can find the biggest edge comes out ahead and that is what bitcoins relate to atm, trading is the game and value for trading is the ingredients.

As soon as there is more use for bitcoins the madness of finding a new edge will arrive.

We may aswell add a tagline to bitcoins, "The morally just Currency".

Embrace it and stop sounding like a bunch of priests who feel they must confess 24/7.

gnaget

full member

Activity: 154

Merit: 102

This is how rationalization works: you get a perfectly logical reason why pool hopping is unethical, and your brain filters it before you even give it due consideration.

Case in point:

You start at pool a
After x minutes, you do not get a block, so you move to pool b
the hash rate at pool a just got smaller, you might have been the one to find the block, but now it will take that much longer because you left
Therefore everyone who stayed at pool a now waits longer to get that block, and while you got 10% more, that 10% is split as a loss to everyone else

Thus you are taking money from honest miners.

People who pool hop are not extra savvy, you are merely taking someone else's math and someone else's code and saying: look how smart I am, I get an extra 10% yay!

I am now wondering just how much money I am losing because of pool hoppers, thanks guys

bcpokey

hero member

Activity: 602

Merit: 500

Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 08:44:19 PM

Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 08:26:39 PM

Before you comment, please give me one example where a pool opperator does not allow it, and is trying to stop it...Those are the pools you should join.

Look at the comment right above yours, btcguild is going out of their way to discourage pool hoppers, and yet he triumphantly claims to still pull it off.

I would agree that anyone who thinks it is perfectly ethical to pool hop is an unethical person and I would not casually do business for them... after all what other ways do they "maximize their profits"... If I want to buy a card from someone, maybe they don't mention it locks up after an hours use. After all, that is just maximizing profits.

You can rationalize it all you want, but you have to acknowledge it is only a rationalization. I'm sure you have yourself convinced, but people like me do not see it that way. We see it as dishonest, and the people who do it as dishonest.

That's now how rationalization works. If you admit that is what you are doing then it fails to work. Your characterization of it as a rationalization is a fallacy as well, especially when you state that you are coming from a different perspective. If you can come with a logically conclusive line of reasoning as to why pool hopping is "unethical" I'd be interested. But for now I've heard nothing convincing, and my own thinking on the matter is that it seems fine.

error

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Activity: 588

Merit: 500

Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 08:44:19 PM

Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 08:26:39 PM

Before you comment, please give me one example where a pool opperator does not allow it, and is trying to stop it...Those are the pools you should join.

Look at the comment right above yours, btcguild is going out of their way to discourage pool hoppers, and yet he triumphantly claims to still pull it off.

I would agree that anyone who thinks it is perfectly ethical to pool hop is an unethical person and I would not casually do business for them... after all what other ways do they "maximize their profits"... If I want to buy a card from someone, maybe they don't mention it locks up after an hours use. After all, that is just maximizing profits.

You can rationalize it all you want, but you have to acknowledge it is only a rationalization. I'm sure you have yourself convinced, but people like me do not see it that way. We see it as dishonest, and the people who do it as dishonest.

You're welcome to your opinion, however mistaken it is. I still have not yet seen anyone post a coherent rationale for pool hopping being unethical which stands up to even a cursory analysis. Would you care to try it?

gnaget

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Activity: 154

Merit: 102

Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 08:26:39 PM

Before you comment, please give me one example where a pool opperator does not allow it, and is trying to stop it...Those are the pools you should join.

Look at the comment right above yours, btcguild is going out of their way to discourage pool hoppers, and yet he triumphantly claims to still pull it off.

I would agree that anyone who thinks it is perfectly ethical to pool hop is an unethical person and I would not casually do business for them... after all what other ways do they "maximize their profits"... If I want to buy a card from someone, maybe they don't mention it locks up after an hours use. After all, that is just maximizing profits.

You can rationalize it all you want, but you have to acknowledge it is only a rationalization. I'm sure you have yourself convinced, but people like me do not see it that way. We see it as dishonest, and the people who do it as dishonest.

max in montreal

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Merit: 500

Quote from: AngelusWebDesign on July 24, 2011, 05:26:09 PM

Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 04:22:23 PM

We are in a hobby that needs constant tweaking. We must tweak for the better.The extra 3% using the new phoenix tweak, the better pool for less stales, taking out a hard drive to save on energy, Windows versus Linux, and finally to hop or not.

The pool owners can stop it if they wanted too, but they do not.

I need to get the most from my setup, if you do not thats cool too. My morals are extremely low, so it does not bother me.

At least you admit it.

There's nothing further for me to discuss with those like you.

(Mental note: Max in Montreal can't be trusted -- never do any business with him, lest I lose my money/item)

I sell bitcoins to fellow canadians using instant bank transfers, and I have done many successful transactions so far. I always make sure to get the cash before I send any coins. I am trying to get a good rep for doing business with people on these forums, and to scam somone out of their money, I would ruin my rep for being honest.

With difficulty increasing we need every edge we can get, it is competition out there, don't blame me, blame the pool opperators for allowing it.

Before you comment, please give me one example where a pool opperator does not allow it, and is trying to stop it...Those are the pools you should join.

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There's nothing further for me to discuss with those like you

.

You promise?

There is a paper written somewhere and a good discussion here on the forum on how a pool opperator can easily stop it. Find it, its a good read and might change your mind.

AngelusWebDesign , seriously though, I'm sorry. I am sorry if I made you cry! Wink

Sukrim

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Quote from: FlyingFlapjack on July 24, 2011, 03:41:51 PM

Most of the pools are shrinking while BTCGuild, Deepbit, and Slush are looking like they are going to be the only winners.

Guess what, at least BTCguild + deepbit are definitely hoppable and slush probably too... once the "easy" small pools switch to porper payout structures these are next on the agenda for hoppers - 2 pools is better than 0, and you can earn a LOT on both - given the high hash rates there.

Delaying stats etc. is by the way NOT helping, just making it a bit more interesting to hop (and if you keep the code for yourself, they might even stay proportional longer, giving you a nice profit for longer times)

msb8r

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Hopping is as ethical as shopping several places for your groceries to get the best prices.
I can chose to shop all my groceries in one place, or go several places to pick the best offers.
Am I cheating or stealing from my local grocery shop? No.

It's more work to shop several places, as it's more work to update/maintain the hopping proxy (another downside is having your earnings spread across a number of pools).

But as long as there's pool operators willing to pay me more for mining with them than the alternatives, I'll point my miner to them.

Edit: Am I cheating/stealing from other miners? No. They are free to make the same decisions that I have. Mine one pool for convenience, or hop around for profit.

AngelusWebDesign

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Quote from: max in montreal on July 24, 2011, 04:22:23 PM

We are in a hobby that needs constant tweaking. We must tweak for the better.The extra 3% using the new phoenix tweak, the better pool for less stales, taking out a hard drive to save on energy, Windows versus Linux, and finally to hop or not.

The pool owners can stop it if they wanted too, but they do not.

I need to get the most from my setup, if you do not thats cool too. My morals are extremely low, so it does not bother me.

At least you admit it.

There's nothing further for me to discuss with those like you.

(Mental note: Max in Montreal can't be trusted -- never do any business with him, lest I lose my money/item)

MaGNeT

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Waves | 3PHMaGNeTJfqFfD4xuctgKdoxLX188QM8na

Quote from: ahitman on July 24, 2011, 04:36:31 PM

Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 03:05:33 PM

I draw the line at causing undue harm to innocent people. None of your examples results in me causing harm to people, by pool hopping, you are taking money away from people who are content with receiving their fair share for their work.

I can say the same thing to someone who spends money adding more GPUs to their own farm:

By spending $2000 on GPUs and mining with them, you are taking money away from people who are content with receiving their fair share for their work. You raise the difficulty of the whole network and I make less money because of that.

There is a difference.

If I mine with 2500Ghash/s and don't poolhop, I get my share for the work my miner has done.
If you poolhop with 2500Ghash/s and poolhop, you get your share for the work your miner has done and even a bit more from my share.

JoelKatz

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Democracy is vulnerable to a 51% attack.

Quote from: grod on July 24, 2011, 03:36:18 PM

Pool operators benefit from the largest possible pool membership. They don't take a hit for pool hopping.

Pool operators only benefit from large pool membership if the members actually submit shares. It makes no difference how many members a pool has if they all desert the pool as soon as the pool is taking 'too long' to solve a block.

And they do take a huge hit for pool hopping. When legitimate miners get a below-average payout, they desert the pool. Fewer legitimate miners means fewer people submitting shares when the pool is taking too long to solve a block. This means the pool spends much more time in the low payout state. This means much lower performance for the pool overall.

bcpokey

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I should listen to my own words. Now that hopping has gained more traction (used to be a very small group), I need to look at which pools are getting hopped and either change the miners on thre to hoppers or move my hashes elsewhere. I'm lazy so someone help me out here, where is the list of commonly hopped pools?

dayfall

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There are still people who don't believe pool hopping robs them of anything. And some are quite rude when you try to reason with them. I say it is morally sound to pool hop these people. The pools that make a good faith effort to prevent pool hopping should not be robbed in this method.

ahitman

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Quote from: gnaget on July 24, 2011, 03:05:33 PM

I draw the line at causing undue harm to innocent people. None of your examples results in me causing harm to people, by pool hopping, you are taking money away from people who are content with receiving their fair share for their work.

I can say the same thing to someone who spends money adding more GPUs to their own farm:

By spending $2000 on GPUs and mining with them, you are taking money away from people who are content with receiving their fair share for their work. You raise the difficulty of the whole network and I make less money because of that.

Topic: Pool hopping... ethical or not? - page 14. (Read 25035 times)