In the meantime, review Economic Clusters and try to describe specific attack vectors. Anybody is welcome to contribute.
Topic: [PoS] Economic Clustering (Read 2040 times)
I am glad the idea of Transparent Forging and Economic Clusters are roughly understood and internalized. I keep you posted on any new bit I could find on nxtforum.org.
In the meantime, review Economic Clusters and try to describe specific attack vectors. Anybody is welcome to contribute.
In the meantime, review Economic Clusters and try to describe specific attack vectors. Anybody is welcome to contribute.
Thank you. Reading.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
DeathandTaxes just posted an excellent description yesterday in this thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6982574
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.6982574
We were taking about nothing at stake problem.
I fear nothing@stake is too vague. We would need a more precise description.
However, everybody else is welcome to join the discussion and find a way to break EC, i.e describe exactly under which the set of situations/circumstances EC will definitely fail.
Not sure how much secret sauce there is in this post. We will see.
source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/on-economic-clusters-and-the-longest-chain/msg28204/#msg28204
If Tc/T >> Ko, then it's legit branch
Tc - number of transactions belonging to cluster participants
T - total number of transactions (must be within the normal range, defined statistically for the whole cluster)
Ko - ratio of transactions resent coz of orphaned blocks (defined statistically for the whole cluster)
Asking a friend is better for a newbie coz it lower entry barrier (no need to understand what economic cluster is)
source https://nxtforum.org/general-discussion/on-economic-clusters-and-the-longest-chain/msg28204/#msg28204
How is that defined mathematically so that a forger could automatically tell the legitimate network of the economic cluster from the attacker's network?
Or when a new guy joins Nxt, for the first time, he has to identify the legitimate network through identifying the economic cluster by, e.g., asking a friend?
Or when a new guy joins Nxt, for the first time, he has to identify the legitimate network through identifying the economic cluster by, e.g., asking a friend?
If Tc/T >> Ko, then it's legit branch
Tc - number of transactions belonging to cluster participants
T - total number of transactions (must be within the normal range, defined statistically for the whole cluster)
Ko - ratio of transactions resent coz of orphaned blocks (defined statistically for the whole cluster)
Asking a friend is better for a newbie coz it lower entry barrier (no need to understand what economic cluster is)
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
We were taking about nothing at stake problem.
Anyway, at this point it feels like the debate has
become redundant. It has been discussed in
other threads so let's just wait and see what
transpires when the "secret sauce" code is
Released.
If you really believe in nxt, feel free to load
Up the boat. I imagine that you will be rewarded
Accordingly for backing the right horse.
Anyway, at this point it feels like the debate has
become redundant. It has been discussed in
other threads so let's just wait and see what
transpires when the "secret sauce" code is
Released.
If you really believe in nxt, feel free to load
Up the boat. I imagine that you will be rewarded
Accordingly for backing the right horse.
True. So, I do not understand the problem of yours.
PoS is secure up to a certain point; basically most of the time.
When PoS fails, EC helps accounts to keep track where they are and not accidentally swapping to a bad chain until the situation is resolved.
Maybe, you could describe your problem in terms of a specific attack vector?
PoS is secure up to a certain point; basically most of the time.
When PoS fails, EC helps accounts to keep track where they are and not accidentally swapping to a bad chain until the situation is resolved.
Maybe, you could describe your problem in terms of a specific attack vector?
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
the obvious question would be, how do they know which one they want it to be on?
As they forge, they are forging along a fork using the regular PoS algorithm. Say this one resolves itself within 10 or 20 or even 120 blocks, you can always point to the block X blocks back as proof that you are on a certain fork.
Economic Clustering is just a way of committing to a specific fork. You can't later go back and rewrite the blockchain with a different fork because the majority has chosen one chain.
...imo, not saying anything new. chains are chains and new blocks link back to previous blocks.
the obvious question would be, how do they know which one they want it to be on?
As they forge, they are forging along a fork using the regular PoS algorithm. Say this one resolves itself within 10 or 20 or even 120 blocks, you can always point to the block X blocks back as proof that you are on a certain fork.
Economic Clustering is just a way of committing to a specific fork. You can't later go back and rewrite the blockchain with a different fork because the majority has chosen one chain.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
the obvious question would be, how do they know which one they want it to be on?
Nice to see that serious discussion still goes on after placing this topic somewhere else. +1 for you.
Sorry, for being too unspecific.
The point is blockchain hopping is not possible anymore. People vouch for the blockchain (which is hopefully a single one) they want their transactions to be publish on. Nobody else can re-use their transactions to increase their economic value.
That makes big-accounts-from-the-past attacks impossible. Re-orgs would not occur as the economic majority stays on the same branch which their economic past is based on. Nobody want and could see their transactions lost.
Maybe, CfB can give you a better explanation. We will see.
Sorry, for being too unspecific.
The point is blockchain hopping is not possible anymore. People vouch for the blockchain (which is hopefully a single one) they want their transactions to be publish on. Nobody else can re-use their transactions to increase their economic value.
That makes big-accounts-from-the-past attacks impossible. Re-orgs would not occur as the economic majority stays on the same branch which their economic past is based on. Nobody want and could see their transactions lost.
Maybe, CfB can give you a better explanation. We will see.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
N@S = forging better blockchains at no cost
Under EC, this alleged better blockchains are completely decoupled from the main chain as transactions do not recognize them.
Under EC, this alleged better blockchains are completely decoupled from the main chain as transactions do not recognize them.
How ?
You didn't really explain anything in this post.
Of course the "alleged better blockchains" are unrecognized by the main chain.
Bitcoin does the same thing by having a rule (longest chain wins) to force
consensus and everything else is rejected.
But to attack in Bitcoin, you have to do proof of work in real time to
try to get ahead. In proof of stake, you can just use resources
that were owned in the paste at some possible point of attack,
which is the nothing-at-stake problem.
N@S = forging better blockchains at no cost
Under EC, this alleged better blockchains are completely decoupled from the main chain as transactions do not recognize them.
Under EC, this alleged better blockchains are completely decoupled from the main chain as transactions do not recognize them.
legendary
Activity: 1302
Merit: 1004
Core dev leaves me neg feedback #abuse #political
Quote
The concept of economic clustering is quite simple. Words "economic majority" say enough to explain how it works. From technical point of view it means that if someone decides to rewrite the history of the blockchain he won't be able to include transactions of those who don't take part in the attack, because every transaction contains the id of one of the recent blocks. When Alice sends money to Bob in exchange for something she'll get what she wants only if Bob validates the transaction. And this can happen only if they are both on the same branch.
And that solves the nothing at stake problem how?
Bob can validate the transaction and still be victim of a double spend.
just came to my mind the old web-of-trust ...Key signing party
I see we need some distraction after a long day of discussing PoS features.
Anybody else? You have 10 minutes to troll. After that, discussion continues.
It took satoshi 20 years to solve the problem of decentralized concensus and NXT devs solving the problem by overnight patches and rushed work without much discussion...
Jealous?
Trollolololo... Okay, back to topic, please. Not jealous... I am interested in a decentralized PoS solution ... just not seeing that happening. Maybe I dont have the vision but it looks to me impossible.
Explain why EC is not a solution.
just came to my mind the old web-of-trust ...Key signing party
It took satoshi 20 years to solve the problem of decentralized concensus and NXT devs solving the problem by overnight patches and rushed work without much discussion...
Jealous?
Trollolololo... Okay, back to topic, please. Not jealous... I am interested in a decentralized PoS solution ... just not seeing that happening. Maybe I dont have the vision but it looks to me impossible.
It took satoshi 20 years to solve the problem of decentralized concensus and NXT devs solving the problem by overnight patches and rushed work without much discussion...
Jealous?
Trollolololo... Okay, back to topic, please.
So from mockery and lols from NXT devs we go to the state to acknowledge the problem?
You still need a higher authority to guide your operations... Still dont see the point if you are looking for a decentralized currency.
It took satoshi 20 years to solve the problem of decentralized concensus and NXT devs solving the problem by overnight patches and rushed work without much discussion...
You still need a higher authority to guide your operations... Still dont see the point if you are looking for a decentralized currency.
It took satoshi 20 years to solve the problem of decentralized concensus and NXT devs solving the problem by overnight patches and rushed work without much discussion...
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