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Topic: Preparation for the inevitable - page 2. (Read 5028 times)

hero member
Activity: 523
Merit: 500
September 03, 2012, 09:13:20 PM
#33
I think this issue is blown out of proportion. If certain exchanges are shut down, there will be others. There will be classifieds, craigslist, etc. for in-person exchange. Besides, shutting down exchanges would likely drive up adoption of btc as direct medium of exchange, without intermediate conversion to government fiat. Finally, more and more people - including smart individuals in governments have vested interest in Bitcoin. They see its value for personal reasons, but also in the bigger picture.  Bitcoin in itself is not that big of a danger to anyone, it is more of an opportunity. Think Internet.

It is an enormous danger to any nation state. If you dont control the currency, you dont control the country.

Well, people will need to pay tax with the countrys currency.
So there will be a need and use of that countrys currency and I dont think citizens of a country would want to totally get rid of their own currency.

Its also an opportunity for any country. Like the internet. Creating jobs and getting millions in money.
The countries first to adopt new technology will earn most on it.

In fact if I where a government I would like my citizens to hold highest amount of Bitcoins possible as it might be the currency of the future on internet. It can be regulated by random inspections.

Though .com, .net, .org should be avoided at all cost.
They can be pulled away.

I´m not sure they will bother that much right now either.

Bitcoin needs to grow to $150 to be more than a tiny tiny problem.
Its so small it would be allmost embarrasing right now for them to care.
Thats what I think, but I might be wrong. They might not have to much to do.

Though in reality Bitcoin benefits every single human in the world. Except the 100 bankers who own the majority in the big banks.

legendary
Activity: 1264
Merit: 1008
September 03, 2012, 09:03:52 PM
#32

Can you be more specific? How exactly does Bitcoin present danger to a nation state (more than cash or gold or paypal or dwolla)?



Thanks for bringing this up OP.  Certainly a contingency plan should be on the table. 

More specifically coins are not a threat to a nation state but rather to those that control and profit from control of fiat money supply.  Indeed gold is an apt analogy, as if people started using gold as transaction currency the money masters would be no longer able to take as much value from the people as they wished.  A brief review of the banning of gold ownership is merited. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_6102

Wow, 1933 to 1974. 

Simply put, the money printing press is a valuable asset.  It earns some folks on the order of 10 trillion $ per year (good luck figuring out just how much it really makes).  That's big business so you might expect these players to try to squash something like gold hoarding or bitcoins which threaten it. 

On the other hand, these folks have another option.  They can run with the money.  Buy gold and bitcoins with their infinite dollars, and retire in comfort.  Its been a good run, and that is probably the best option on the table for them now, introduce a relatively massive inflation and run.  The cards were already on the table before Satoshi threw the aces down.

But I'm sure glad to see some improved TOR integration in the latest release anyway.     


sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
September 03, 2012, 08:48:58 PM
#31

How would prices go up, if the infrastructure which supports these prices was removed?

How is the infrastructure removed? Who's going to shut the net down?

Investing in bitcoins is merely making a bet that the internet will still be functioning in three, four, five years or more.
hero member
Activity: 532
Merit: 500
September 03, 2012, 08:22:27 PM
#30
If the amount of people using bitcoin continues to go up as it has along with corresponding increase in services, at some point it will become an honest threat to the sovereignty of the state. At this point, the states (the powerful ones anyway) will have no choice but to intervene and shut down all of the services (mtgox, glbse, bitinstant, this forum etc) that users depend on in order to facilitate exchange within and between currencies. My question is: Is it possible for this decentralized currency to build out an equally robust and decentralized service infrastructure? If not, what is the contingency plan for when this happens?

I am being SATIRISTIC

legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
September 03, 2012, 06:58:50 PM
#29
The ability to print new currency (or unbacked credit) at will only delays the inevitable as long as people can't flee to another currency. Mass acceptance of Bitcoin would bring the sooner than it otherwise would happen.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
September 03, 2012, 06:55:47 PM
#28
That is not a threat that bitcoin has anything to do with though, that is a threat all by itself.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
September 03, 2012, 06:35:00 PM
#27
If, for example, the US government can no longer entice people to its military machine via worthless US dollars, people will not enter its military machine and the US will get very angry. The only way for bitcoin or any cryptocurrency to really succeed is to eventually start removing significant value from existing fiat currencies to itself. It will cause inflation above and beyond standard inflation and people will stop wanting the currency. It is a clear and present threat to the establishment.
Military spending is bad, but it's not what's making fiscal sanity impossible - it's transfer payments, especially transfer payments to retired public sector workers.

Nearly all pension funds are insolvent because they promised benefits which required mathematially-impossible returns to fund. The degree of insolvency seems to be directly proportional to the policial clout the constituency of these funds represents - California, Illinois, UAW, etc. The stock market is being kept propped up by unbacked credit emissions to delay the time at which these funds must confess that they won't be able to pay out what was promised.
hero member
Activity: 798
Merit: 1000
September 03, 2012, 06:22:44 PM
#26
Can you be more specific? How exactly does Bitcoin present danger to a nation state (more than cash or gold or paypal or dwolla)?

If, for example, the US government can no longer entice people to its military machine via worthless US dollars, people will not enter its military machine and the US will get very angry. The only way for bitcoin or any cryptocurrency to really succeed is to eventually start removing significant value from existing fiat currencies to itself. It will cause inflation above and beyond standard inflation and people will stop wanting the currency. It is a clear and present threat to the establishment.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
September 03, 2012, 06:04:55 PM
#25
I think this issue is blown out of proportion. If certain exchanges are shut down, there will be others. There will be classifieds, craigslist, etc. for in-person exchange. Besides, shutting down exchanges would likely drive up adoption of btc as direct medium of exchange, without intermediate conversion to government fiat. Finally, more and more people - including smart individuals in governments have vested interest in Bitcoin. They see its value for personal reasons, but also in the bigger picture.  Bitcoin in itself is not that big of a danger to anyone, it is more of an opportunity. Think Internet.

It is an enormous danger to any nation state. If you dont control the currency, you dont control the country.
Can you be more specific? How exactly does Bitcoin present danger to a nation state (more than cash or gold or paypal or dwolla)?
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
September 03, 2012, 04:53:12 PM
#24
If not, what is the contingency plan for when this happens?
The sites move to TOR. Problem solved.


See my earlier response. User adoption suffers tremendously as a result. This is not a scaleable solution.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
September 03, 2012, 04:51:36 PM
#23
2. Wire transfers and other traditional forms of transferring (large amounts) of money to such services becomes prohibitively difficult and adds yet another layer blocking user adoption.
Not if they use a trading system like bitcoin.de: buyers transfer money to sellers directly.

Obviously this requires users trusting eachother (the site works with a trust / rating system, which works pretty well btw) but there are no fiat transactions to or from the service provider anymore. Their fees are entirely paid in bitcoins. The sire could operate completely anonymously.

bitcoin.de... is also hosted on a domain by the largest economy in europe. This will clearly also be on the list of sites to take down (once they decide that is necessary).
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
September 03, 2012, 04:49:55 PM
#22
I think this issue is blown out of proportion. If certain exchanges are shut down, there will be others. There will be classifieds, craigslist, etc. for in-person exchange. Besides, shutting down exchanges would likely drive up adoption of btc as direct medium of exchange, without intermediate conversion to government fiat. Finally, more and more people - including smart individuals in governments have vested interest in Bitcoin. They see its value for personal reasons, but also in the bigger picture.  Bitcoin in itself is not that big of a danger to anyone, it is more of an opportunity. Think Internet.

It is an enormous danger to any nation state. If you dont control the currency, you dont control the country.
legendary
Activity: 1288
Merit: 1000
Enabling the maximal migration
September 03, 2012, 04:47:20 PM
#21
Who said anything about one government acting alone?

They can't even shutdown Pirate Bay. Bitcoins will be hard for them to stop without shutting down the entire internet.

Should a government act against bitcoin, it would drive the price through the roof.

How would prices go up, if the infrastructure which supports these prices was removed?
legendary
Activity: 1526
Merit: 1134
September 03, 2012, 04:03:01 PM
#20
See here for how to build a peer-to-peer currency exchange:

  https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Ripple_currency_exchange

That said, I think it's unlikely that action against Bitcoin exchanges would last for long unless they were done very early (like in the next year or two). If there are enough people who campaign politically for it to be allowed to grow and breathe, politicians will respond to that, as they are desperate to find some convincing story around banking that is stronger than just the endless cycle of "add some rules/remove some rules/limit bonus sizes".
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1003
September 03, 2012, 04:01:20 PM
#19
I believe the touted solution is Mesh Networks

yes, and it's even more important than the success of bitcoin that this happens. Not only as means of resilience against an attack but also as a motor for a less hierarchical society.

Look into using http://projectmeshnet.org/ a Bitcoin Blackjack site can be accessed through it at http://[fc9e:a3c:7e4a:91f2:38fe:9968:d637:2620]


Yes looks good that project.  I just wished they sold plug (in to your modem/router) and play (Ad Hoc'able) hardware that could also act as local MeshNetworks.  With Pirate Boxes and RaspberryPi's available I think someone will start selling them sooner or later.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1011
September 03, 2012, 03:55:46 PM
#18
2. Wire transfers and other traditional forms of transferring (large amounts) of money to such services becomes prohibitively difficult and adds yet another layer blocking user adoption.
Not if they use a trading system like bitcoin.de: buyers transfer money to sellers directly.

Obviously this requires users trusting eachother (the site works with a trust / rating system, which works pretty well btw) but there are no fiat transactions to or from the service provider anymore. Their fees are entirely paid in bitcoins. The sire could operate completely anonymously.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1011
September 03, 2012, 03:41:43 PM
#17
Making the entire network operate through TOR may hide the exchange servers. But would you trust such hidden servers?
By all means, yes. Much more than I would trust governments.
legendary
Activity: 1176
Merit: 1011
September 03, 2012, 03:40:27 PM
#16
If not, what is the contingency plan for when this happens?
The sites move to TOR. Problem solved.
hero member
Activity: 756
Merit: 501
There is more to Bitcoin than bitcoins.
September 03, 2012, 03:31:14 PM
#15
I think this issue is blown out of proportion. If certain exchanges are shut down, there will be others. There will be classifieds, craigslist, etc. for in-person exchange. Besides, shutting down exchanges would likely drive up adoption of btc as direct medium of exchange, without intermediate conversion to government fiat. Finally, more and more people - including smart individuals in governments have vested interest in Bitcoin. They see its value for personal reasons, but also in the bigger picture.  Bitcoin in itself is not that big of a danger to anyone, it is more of an opportunity. Think Internet.
legendary
Activity: 1400
Merit: 1013
September 03, 2012, 03:17:50 PM
#14
It wouldn't hurt to ask Bitcoin websites, especially those with registered with a .com TLD, for Tor hidden service support.
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