Privacy enhancing strategy on centralized exchanges possible?

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Quote from: LoyceV on June 13, 2021, 06:41:11 AM

Quote from: ?? on ??

Interestingly, their coin (Binance Coin/BNB) is used on several gambling website which make me think gambling activity is only partially/selectively allowed. If they strictly forbid gambling, they would already freeze/take the BNB since Binance control the network.

They could be waiting for the amounts used in gambling to go up, so the can freeze a few billion dollars worth of their own centralized coin at once.

Unlikely, but it'll be interesting to see reaction from cryptocurrency community if it happens.

Quote from: UserU on June 13, 2021, 09:50:36 AM

Speaking of gambling, I googled and apparently BPlay casino is somewhat officially partnered with, or part of Binance. Nani?
https://www.bplay.org/

EDIT: I checked the mobile app and it seems you could deposit with it too.

Actually it's true. Binance acknowledge it at https://www.binance.com/en/blog/421499824684900694/Five-More-BNB-Use-Cases-Play-Shop-Eat-and-More. But they use word "games" rather than "gambling" on their blog.

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I am a new member on this forum but I have been using Centralised exchanges like Binance, Polinex since 2020 and I know one thing, they are pretty costly as compared to decentralised exchanges. Another thing which I undestand is that they do not reveal your private key for your wallet, that is the primary reason why they fall under the risky zone.

Upto a certain amount in Bitcoin in transaction they do not ask for KYC but when you purchase any cryptocurrency using your debit card or credut card they do save your card details. I know this because I have been purchasing Bitcoin from Binance using my debit card every month. I have now come to the conclusion that it is better to use p2p vendors to purchase Bitcoin. There are still risk in using p2p system but if you are careful enough you will be able to use the p2p service without any issue.

Nothing on the internet gets deleted everything gets stored in the hard drive and hackers do know about it. The only solution is to avoid centralised exchanges is to start using those which are decentralised.

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Quote from: The Cryptovator on June 14, 2021, 01:53:08 PM

There is no true delete button in the virtual or internet world. So I don't believe Binance will erase your information although you delete the account.

You can believe or not in the Delete / Erase button on the Internet space but in real life, all documents will be stored for a while. In any agency, any personal identity document, certificate, QA/QC documents will be stored for a while (should be years) before they will be burnt out. When you leave a company, all your records in that company will never be erased from their database after one night. It takes years to be completely erased or it will stay there forever.

We don't know companies whether will follow the rule on Internet space but if will do follow that rule, a few years of storage is risky enough.

Example is Binance but you will find similar terms on other exchanges in their ToS.

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If that question about privacy, then still you are at risk. When you use your card to buy Bitcoin means you already expose your identity. Create an account then buy Bitcoin and delete, mix, and so on is too much harassment. And you have to spend fees for that.

Don't submit your identity for KYC if you're worrying about risks.

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If you struggle then you may buy peer-to-peer or from your local exchange. Once you come to the centralized, then you can't save your privacy by the way.

Not all peer-to-peer exchanges don't require KYC. Bisq.network is one of non KYC P2P marketplace but their volume is not high.

The Cryptovator

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There is no true delete button in the virtual or internet world. So I don't believe Binance will erase your information although you delete the account. If that question about privacy, then still you are at risk. When you use your card to buy Bitcoin means you already expose your identity. Create an account then buy Bitcoin and delete, mix, and so on is too much harassment. And you have to spend fees for that. If you struggle then you may buy peer-to-peer or from your local exchange. Once you come to the centralized, then you can't save your privacy by the way.

UserU

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 PM

I don't think they have anything in their ToS against gambling sites but you may want to check it yourself and not take any risks even if they didn't.
Also it may depend on the gambling site that was used to acquire that address. You see the blockchain analysis has never been accurate and some transactions can easily fall through, sometimes the gambling site being not that popular also makes it easier to go unnoticed.

Never seen any complaints, but if Binance is against Wasabi as a mixer then it kinda sends mixed signals.

Speaking of gambling, I googled and apparently BPlay casino is somewhat officially partnered with, or part of Binance. Nani?
https://www.bplay.org/

EDIT: I checked the mobile app and it seems you could deposit with it too.

LoyceV

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Interestingly, their coin (Binance Coin/BNB) is used on several gambling website which make me think gambling activity is only partially/selectively allowed. If they strictly forbid gambling, they would already freeze/take the BNB since Binance control the network.

They could be waiting for the amounts used in gambling to go up, so the can freeze a few billion dollars worth of their own centralized coin at once.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 12, 2021, 10:35:37 PM

I don't think they have anything in their ToS against gambling sites but you may want to check it yourself and not take any risks even if they didn't.

I had a quick check of Binance's terms. Interestingly, there is nothing in their main terms (https://www.binance.com/en/terms), but their P2P terms of use states the following (emphasis mine):

Quote from: https://www.binance.com/en/support/faq/360041066751

When Users are found by the platform’s risk control system to be suspected of fraud (or attempted fraud), withdrawal of money to high-risk platforms (including but not limited to unlicensed crypto-dealer platforms, online gambling platforms, platforms suspected of money laundering fraud, or others with low-risk control capabilities), or other high-risk asset transfers.
...
The platform may opt to directly freeze or disable the transaction, withdrawal, or even all P2P features of the account or associated Accounts.

So they certainly have set a precedent for locking your account and freezing all your coins if you withdraw money to a casino or other gambling site.

The Coinbase terms are pretty explicit on the same matter:

Quote from: https://www.coinbase.com/legal/user_agreement/united_states

You may not use your Coinbase Account(s) to engage in the following categories of activity ("Prohibited Uses"). The specific types of use listed below are representative, but not exhaustive.
...
Gambling: Lotteries; bidding fee auctions; sports forecasting or odds making; fantasy sports leagues with cash prizes; internet gaming; contests; sweepstakes; games of chance

pooya87

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Quote from: UserU on June 12, 2021, 07:48:24 AM

Strangely they don't do the same for gambling addresses?

I don't think they have anything in their ToS against gambling sites but you may want to check it yourself and not take any risks even if they didn't.
Also it may depend on the gambling site that was used to acquire that address. You see the blockchain analysis has never been accurate and some transactions can easily fall through, sometimes the gambling site being not that popular also makes it easier to go unnoticed.

UserU

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Quote from: ?? on ??

I agree, however there are few exchange known for monitoring withdrawn Bitcoin. One example is Binance which threaten to close user account if they keep use Wasabi Wallet.

Strangely they don't do the same for gambling addresses?

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One example is Binance which threaten to close user account if they keep use Wasabi Wallet.

Another example is Coinbase banning users who withdraw crypto from their Coinbase account to a casino or sportsbook, even if there is a hop or two inbetween. And even if the exchange you are using doesn't actively monitor your coins after withdrawal, they will obviously still keep records of all your withdrawals linked to your account and KYC data. At any point they could decide to start analyzing this information or hand it over to a third party of government who will.

Quote from: LoyceV on June 12, 2021, 02:26:48 AM

Who are you trying to hide from? Say Binance gets hacked, a local crook sees you bought Bitcoin, and decides to pay you a visit. How does mixing your coins help you in this scenario?

It does help you keep the coins your purchased from Binance separate from each other and from any other crypto you have. It provides some plausible deniability in the case of a $5 wrench attack, as you can add coins you bought from Binance to your main cold storage without it being traceable from looking at the blockchain. You might be able to only hand over a portion of your coins and convince the thief that you spent or sold the rest if they have all been mixed and sent to different wallets, whereas if you have just withdrawn everything in to the same wallet then as soon as you hand over the password/seed phrase you've lost everything.

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 10, 2021, 10:18:23 PM

In this scenario you increased your privacy when you withdrew your bitcoins and then mixed them before moving them to your storage device not by deleting your account since when you delete your account it is only removed from the public database you access for loging in, for all we know Binance (and any other centralized exchange with a KYC) is obligated by the government to keep a complete report of all their customers and transactions and be ready to hand it over. Which means your "footprint" is stored somewhere by Binance and in case of a hack it will leak.

That would be my assumption too. Once you give your personal data, it's safe to assume they'll never remove it.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 10, 2021, 04:15:45 PM

On binance, I can decide to open and account, use it to buy Bitcoin after verification, after I buy the Bitcoin, I can send it to a wallet like electrum, I can decide to delete my Binance account (in which all my data would be deleted along, although, it is what Binance indicated, but I do not know how true it is).

The only way to be sure they don't keep your data, is by not sending it in the first place.

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While my Bitcoin is on Electrum, I can make use of mixer/tumbler to mix the Bitcoin and have it finally sent to Trezor wallet. Assuming I am using Tor or VPN to access my noncustodial wallets which makes the connection throught it to be more private.

Who are you trying to hide from? Say Binance gets hacked, a local crook sees you bought Bitcoin, and decides to pay you a visit. How does mixing your coins help you in this scenario? The crook will see your Bitcoin was moved to a new address, and even though you mixed it, he'll just use his $5 wrench until you give up your coins.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 10, 2021, 05:51:14 PM

Currently, Bisq has a trading volume of $249,471.28 daily, and yet support not only Bitcoin. Getting $200000 worth of bitcoin on Bsiq can be difficult, although it is a means to achieve privacy while buying Bitcoin. What if someone want to buy $500000 worth if bitcoin.

Do you know if Bisq provides an API with their marketdata? I was able to find the page below, but it only shows the last 100 trades, and no API.
https://bisq.network/markets/

I was impressed that there is no good API from bisq with marketdata. I took a look at their API, but there is no market data like other exchanges do.
https://bisq.markets/api

I was looking for data such as 24h volume, last price, trading pairs, and so on. Like binance and other exchanges do. Do you knwo where I can find it? I was able to see it in coinmarketcap, but I wish I could get from bisq, the source.

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Be very careful if you use exchange which activate monitor your Bitcoin after you withdraw it.

The thing is with this point, there's no way of really knowing whether they do monitor your transactions after you have used their service. In all likelihood they don't, but most exchanges to be regulated, licensed, and GDPR friendly will have to keep some sort of record of purchase, and sales. Therefore, they could potentially just look at the history of an address, and figure out your entire transaction history with that address.

Are they likely to do that, probably not. However, if the exchange was breached then malicious attackers might find that information useful depending on their goals. In all likelihood, there are records of who/what bought x amount of Bitcoin, and what address that came from or went too. However, they aren't likely actively monitoring this.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 11, 2021, 02:01:40 AM

This is now very clear that even if someone delete his account, that does not mean it is not still stored on the exchanges database, and what is stored on the data base can easily be leaked to the public after successful data hack.

Note as well that that is simply how long Binance keep your data in ordinary circumstances. If a government or other agency tells them to keep it longer, they will. Also note that Binance share your data with a huge number of third parties, and you have no idea what their data retention policies are. They may keep your data much longer, or indeed, indefinitely.

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Don't rely too much on withdraw without KYC.

It is also impossible to buy bitcoin for fiat on a centralized exchange without first completing KYC.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 11, 2021, 02:01:40 AM

Which means deleting the account does not mean any privacy if data was stolen by hackers, the one customers thought has been deleted will still be leaked.

I don't think there is any guarantee of security when all that data is still stored for 5 years in the binance database. This mean 5 years is not a short amount of time for a hacker to get hold of user data on the exchange if they manage to hack it. Indeed privacy issues are difficult issues to solve on centralized exchange, but at least we can trust them as much as we can trust bank system.

On Binance we can still withdraw 2 btc without KYC in 24 hours. This mean we can still withdraw 60 bitcoin in 1 month without KYC and this is a way to keep our privacy from being leaked in my opinion. Do you think this is a good enough way to maintain privacy when trading on a centralized exchange?

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Quote from: SquirrelJulietGarden on June 10, 2021, 10:44:26 PM

In addition to providing such information, you agree to allow us to keep a record of that information during the period for which your account is active and within five (5) years after your account is closed, in compliance with global industry standards on data storage.

This is now very clear that even if someone delete his account, that does not mean it is not still stored on the exchanges database, and what is stored on the data base can easily be leaked to the public after successful data hack. Which means deleting the account does not mean any privacy, the data customers thought has been deleted will still be leaked.

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Quote from: pooya87 on June 10, 2021, 10:18:23 PM

In this scenario you increased your privacy when you withdrew your bitcoins and then mixed them before moving them to your storage device not by deleting your account since when you delete your account it is only removed from the public database you access for loging in, for all we know Binance (and any other centralized exchange with a KYC) is obligated by the government to keep a complete report of all their customers and transactions and be ready to hand it over. Which means your "footprint" is stored somewhere by Binance and in case of a hack it will leak.

Binance has rules about data of closed accounts. Other exchanges have similar rules. Terms (see c. User Identity Verification)

Five years are long time and many things, leaks can happen. You will never know how your Identity documents are leaked.

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In addition to providing such information, you agree to allow us to keep a record of that information during the period for which your account is active and within five (5) years after your account is closed, in compliance with global industry standards on data storage.

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In this scenario you increased your privacy when you withdrew your bitcoins and then mixed them before moving them to your storage device not by deleting your account since when you delete your account it is only removed from the public database you access for loging in, for all we know Binance (and any other centralized exchange with a KYC) is obligated by the government to keep a complete report of all their customers and transactions and be ready to hand it over. Which means your "footprint" is stored somewhere by Binance and in case of a hack it will leak.

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Quote from: Upgrade00 on June 10, 2021, 06:01:55 PM

This is not a problem with bisq or any other P2P network. It's rather a result of people's choice to more frequently use centralized platforms with growing user reach, limiting decentralized exchanges. If more people used such platforms, it would increase market acceptance.

Thats the advantage of Binance I guess. Its very convenient, Im not used this bisq yet but I wonder how it be compared to purchasing btc on a cex like binance. Probably it works like a non custodial wallet for btc then directly swap your money (fiat) to btc like uniswap.

Quote from: Upgrade00 on June 10, 2021, 06:01:55 PM

It would be unfavourable and difficult to sell such amounts on low volume platforms.
There are also OTC options on centralized exchanges.

Cause it will be difficult to find a peer to peer method for this kind of amount. Depends if you talk to a whale guy or institution with a lot of btc. So binance can accomodate that so easy. Its just really a matter of choice, if you want to give up the privacy for using theit platform.

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Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 10, 2021, 05:51:14 PM

You are right if exchanging low amount of Bitcoin, but bitmover mentioned buying $200000 worth of bitcoin, this is what can be bought easily on binance with high trading volume, but it might be difficult on Bisq.

This is not a problem with bisq or any other P2P network. It's rather a result of people's choice to more frequently use centralized platforms with growing user reach, limiting decentralized exchanges. If more people used such platforms, it would increase market acceptance.

Quote from: Charles-Tim on June 10, 2021, 05:51:14 PM

What if someone want to buy $500000 worth if bitcoin.

It would be unfavourable and difficult to sell such amounts on low volume platforms.
There are also OTC options on centralized exchanges.

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