Private enterprise bankrupting America? - page 6.

bb113

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Quote from: compro01 on March 07, 2012, 03:11:47 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 03, 2012, 05:55:28 PM

Three reasons US healthcare is expensive:

1. People are allowed to sue doctors, hospitals, and drug companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, come on, does hundreds of millions really compensate a person better than a few million would? Either way, they're set for life.

2. Because the US takes a free and capitalist approach to the medical world, companies pour tens of billions of dollars into R&D for innovative new treatments and techniques. So, the US has the latest and greatest treatments, but it costs a lot to recover those R&D expenditures.

3. Because people are allowed to be treated without paying for it. Illegals included. Hospitals have to recover costs from people who don't pay somehow...

1. The fact that Texas clamped down on malpractice lawsuits several years ago and hasn't seen any drop in medical procedure costs (malpractice suits by number have fallen to a mere fraction of what they were and malpractice insurance premiums did drop like a stone), which continue to grow at well above the national average, suggests this is not a significant factor.

Do you have a source for this?

SgtSpike

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Quote from: compro01 on March 07, 2012, 03:11:47 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 03, 2012, 05:55:28 PM

Three reasons US healthcare is expensive:

1. People are allowed to sue doctors, hospitals, and drug companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, come on, does hundreds of millions really compensate a person better than a few million would? Either way, they're set for life.

2. Because the US takes a free and capitalist approach to the medical world, companies pour tens of billions of dollars into R&D for innovative new treatments and techniques. So, the US has the latest and greatest treatments, but it costs a lot to recover those R&D expenditures.

3. Because people are allowed to be treated without paying for it. Illegals included. Hospitals have to recover costs from people who don't pay somehow...

1. The fact that Texas clamped down on malpractice lawsuits several years ago and hasn't seen any drop in medical procedure costs (malpractice suits by number have fallen to a mere fraction of what they were and malpractice insurance premiums did drop like a stone), which continue to grow at well above the national average, suggests this is not a significant factor.

2. The fact that pharmaceutical R&D budgets are dwarfed by marketing budgets suggest this is not the cause either.

3. The fact that other countries follow the same "treat first, worry about money later" policy suggests this is also not the cause.

Ok, fine.

Hawker

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Quote from: compro01 on March 07, 2012, 03:11:47 PM

Quote from: SgtSpike on March 03, 2012, 05:55:28 PM

Three reasons US healthcare is expensive:

1. People are allowed to sue doctors, hospitals, and drug companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, come on, does hundreds of millions really compensate a person better than a few million would? Either way, they're set for life.

2. Because the US takes a free and capitalist approach to the medical world, companies pour tens of billions of dollars into R&D for innovative new treatments and techniques. So, the US has the latest and greatest treatments, but it costs a lot to recover those R&D expenditures.

3. Because people are allowed to be treated without paying for it. Illegals included. Hospitals have to recover costs from people who don't pay somehow...

1. The fact that Texas clamped down on malpractice lawsuits several years ago and hasn't seen any drop in medical procedure costs (malpractice suits by number have fallen to a mere fraction of what they were and malpractice insurance premiums did drop like a stone), which continue to grow at well above the national average, suggests this is not a significant factor.

2. The fact that pharmaceutical R&D budgets are dwarfed by marketing budgets suggest this is not the cause either.

3. The fact that other countries follow the same "treat first, worry about money later" policy suggests this is also not the cause.

Correct. The article makes clear none of those three things matters from the point of view of the US citizens being price gouged.

compro01

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Quote from: SgtSpike on March 03, 2012, 05:55:28 PM

Three reasons US healthcare is expensive:

1. People are allowed to sue doctors, hospitals, and drug companies for hundreds of millions of dollars. I mean, come on, does hundreds of millions really compensate a person better than a few million would? Either way, they're set for life.

2. Because the US takes a free and capitalist approach to the medical world, companies pour tens of billions of dollars into R&D for innovative new treatments and techniques. So, the US has the latest and greatest treatments, but it costs a lot to recover those R&D expenditures.

3. Because people are allowed to be treated without paying for it. Illegals included. Hospitals have to recover costs from people who don't pay somehow...

1. The fact that Texas clamped down on malpractice lawsuits several years ago and hasn't seen any drop in medical procedure costs (malpractice suits by number have fallen to a mere fraction of what they were and malpractice insurance premiums did drop like a stone), which continue to grow at well above the national average, suggests this is not a significant factor.

2. The fact that pharmaceutical R&D budgets are dwarfed by marketing budgets suggest this is not the cause either.

3. The fact that other countries follow the same "treat first, worry about money later" policy suggests this is also not the cause.

Kluge

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Quote from: Kluge on March 04, 2012, 01:02:59 PM

Related. Went to an after-hours clinic yesterday after getting some methanol-containing shellac in my eye. Mom drove me. She sprained her ankle a few weeks ago and had her ankle x-ray'd. They billed her $1400 just for the x-ray.

Asked the doctor @ the clinic about it. They are equipped to do the same x-ray and would've charged $50. To have my eye examined under UV, and some other basic tests, cost me $40 (and I'm fine, btw). Pretty darn reasonable. I also waited a much shorter time in the clinic than my mom did in ER (granted, they were at different times, so somewhat non-comparable). He also prescribed me an antibiotic for bronchitis -- $10 for a full prescription, no gov't subsidization.

So, why do hospitals charge 28x more for the same procedure than an apparently-profitable clinic? Valet services? Subsidizing those who can't afford to pay the extreme prices?

ETA: Uncle's home insurance is covering my $40 cost to have eye examined (+having bronchitis looked at in the same visit), so total out-of-pocket cost for me - being uninsured myself - between bronchitis, a z-pack prescription, and having my eyes examined for damage after a can of shellac exploded, is $10. Grin

Thought I'd make the edit more visible. The insurance company (uncle's home insurance -- the can of shellac exploded in his basement, and my mom sprained her ankle on their steps) didn't require I call, was friendly and accepted my emails as proof-enough, and is sending a check directly to me. Even though I requested to waive my rights to potential future claims, the insurance company actually refused to let me waive that right and is willing to cover an additional $960 if ever required. Uncle's home insurance is also covering $1k of my mom's $1.4k cost, and she's going to attempt negotiating with the hospital to bring the cost down to $1k, so ideally she'll have no out-of-pocket expenses. I'll update as updates occur.

ETA: Hospital reduced their obnoxious price down to $1.2k, only $200 out-of-pocket as home insurance covers $1k. Not terribly shabby.

bb113

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Well make no mistake, the US healthcare system is by no means like a free market. This half-assed free market thing is probably the worst solution of all.

Hawker

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Quote from: SgtSpike on March 06, 2012, 01:34:19 PM

Maybe the US needs twice as much healthcare, because everyone's so dang unhealthy here?

Thats a good point.

So is the argument that America is richer so of course stuff is a lot more expensive.

However, American don't get more. Assuming the drug is patent protected, an American who receives a tablet gets the same tablet a Canadian gets. The American can be charged several times as much though.

America is richer than Canada. But no-one argues that Americans should pay more for hard drives, or for shoes. Why are tablets uniquely more expensive?

The argument of the article is that medicines are more expensive because a sick person is a poor negotiator and the US doesn't dictate prices the way better run systems do. But I'm not so sure. There is a big cultural thing here. I came across this article today:
http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2012/03/france-and-us-health-care-twins-separated-at-birth/254033/

Quote

Now, why is that? The process is well-understood: France (and other countries) simply set prices low by political fiat. The US doesn't, and so has very high prices.

You'd think someone who wrote that would have a view that the US should set prices by fiat fast. But no.

Quote

So, where does all that leave us? Well, I don't know. As I said, I'm a layman when it comes to healthcare policy. My pro-market instincts tell me that deregulation and consumer choice are the answer.

A lot of Americans who think about this stuff are so steeped in free market fundamentalism that they can't bear to think of imposing that price control. Paying the extra few $1000 for avoiding ideological confusion may be a valid trade-off.

SgtSpike

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Maybe the US needs twice as much healthcare, because everyone's so dang unhealthy here?

Rassah

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For anything in US to change, Congress needs to agree to the change. Congress is split between two parties with diametrically opposing views on economics (free market vs social programs) and is gradually influenced by lobbyists and special interests that are spending millions to keep the status quo. Regardless of whether US is in good shape, nothing will change any time soon. Heck, how many decades did it take for Obama's healthcare reform to pass, which in the great scheme of healthcare is but an asterisk to the established system?

Hawker

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Quote from: Rassah on March 06, 2012, 12:10:08 PM

Sorry to interject, but you keep saying this

Quote from: Hawker on March 06, 2012, 10:17:41 AM

if it could sort out its health costs, the country's fiscal situation would be transformed.

And considering our top causes of budget deficit are Social Security, war spending, and Medicare that supposedly gets way cheaper prices than private insurance, I don't see how just solving our medicine stuff will solve our country's fiscal situation. At most it's just one part of a much much bigger problem.

Medicare is not allowed to seek the best price.

$1.2 trillion per year is not small change. If that was a tax cut to engineer a stimulus, or a fall in oil prices, celebrations would be in order. An economic boom would be expected.

My bigger point is that a lot of posts here are from people saying "The US is doomed, buy guns and food and all democracy based societies will collapse real soon now."

The evidence is that the US is in robust good health.

Rassah

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Sorry to interject, but you keep saying this

Quote from: Hawker on March 06, 2012, 10:17:41 AM

if it could sort out its health costs, the country's fiscal situation would be transformed.

And considering our top causes of budget deficit are Social Security, war spending, and Medicare that supposedly gets way cheaper prices than private insurance, I don't see how just solving our medicine stuff will solve our country's fiscal situation. At most it's just one part of a much much bigger problem.

bb113

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Ah my number was from 2006. ~~Your math is wrong somehow though.~~ Total spending is like 2.5 trillion. Also I keep seeing people report this wealth effect:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/snapshot/oecd042111.cfm

So when calculating the "overpay" you need to accout for the US's high GDP per capita. So apparently it would be "expected" to be around 5k per capita, or $1.56 trillion. So by that calculation that's one-trillion "overpaying".

Then again some of the GDP numbers in that chart disagree with wikipedia by a wide margin:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28nominal%29_per_capita

Another thing to consider is that I have also come across people saying the US deficit is about $5 trillion a year if you count the money the government owes to itself to pay back the social security fund.

Edit: I read $1.2 trillion as $2.1 trillion

Edit2: Ok, I didn't read wrong

Hawker

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Quote from: bb113 on March 06, 2012, 11:18:21 AM

The "extra" is $700 billion a year... By vendors you mean medical equipment and consumable suppliers?

US population is 300 million or so. The articles say that the average American pays $8000 per year compared to $4000 for the average of the other countries.

Does that not come to $1.2 trillion per year overpay?

EDIT: fixed my math.

bb113

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The "extra" is $700 billion a year... By vendors you mean medical equipment and consumable suppliers?

Hawker

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Quote from: bb113 on March 06, 2012, 11:07:26 AM

Huh, that's not the issue. The issue is where that money is going and why.

*edit: see your thread title

A part of the extra goes to the vendors and the reason they charge Americans more is because they can. A system where one person gets charged more than another just because they are in a weak negotiating position will always be efficient if the vendor has a patent based monopoly.

bb113

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Huh, that's not the issue. The issue is where that money is going and why.

*edit: see your thread title

Hawker

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Quote from: bb113 on March 06, 2012, 10:56:04 AM

No, the place to start is establishing a reliable source of information. So far we know it is not the washington post.

Fine. When you find a source of information that says American pay less, do let us all know. I can't wait.

bb113

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No, the place to start is establishing a reliable source of information. So far we know it is not the washington post.

Hawker

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Quote from: bb113 on March 06, 2012, 10:24:45 AM

No, this was not a problem due to approximation. It was a problem of either vast ineptitude or fraud. I just want to emphasize this, every time I see some statistic in the news and then go follow it up I find out the news was completely full of shit with that statistic. I don't remember the last time it didn't happen.

The point remains; Americans pay more and there is not a medical reason for their paying more. If you are concerned about fraud or ineptitude, is that not the place to start?

bb113

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No, this was not a problem due to approximation. It was a problem of either vast ineptitude or fraud. I just want to emphasize this, every time I see some statistic in the news and then go follow it up I find out the news was completely full of shit with that statistic. I don't remember the last time it didn't happen.

Topic: Private enterprise bankrupting America? - page 6. (Read 10970 times)