problem with off-chain "provably fair" games - page 5.

ASICSRUS

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Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 05:57:02 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 05:40:38 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:55:16 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:36:23 PM

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception! Roll Eyes

nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

If it's still not clear to you, I'm talking specifically about ggdice. You can't be researching this specific service for over 5 years. I'm just giving you proper answers regarding this specific service. The deal I suggested earlier was about this specific service. Maybe if I write specific service once more you will notice that I'm talking about a single service, I can't possibly write something that covers every other service controlled by all kind of people.

NO it's a "type" of site i've identified. Your site participates being part of this online dice scam cabal!!
#Your site clearly uperates like this>> higher bids cause a increase in reds i'm not making this up and ...hmm now when are you going to send that?LOL

murraypaul

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Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 05:40:38 PM

Math proof is when you set it on 93 percent and you see three reds pop up 'all the sudden when you bet bigger! >Google<: i don't get that second link?

All that proves is that you know nothing about statistics.
You are making yourself look silly with these posts.

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 05:40:38 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:55:16 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:36:23 PM

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception! Roll Eyes

nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

If it's still not clear to you, I'm talking specifically about ggdice. You can't be researching this specific service for over 5 years. I'm just giving you proper answers regarding this specific service. The deal I suggested earlier was about this specific service. Maybe if I write specific service once more you will notice that I'm talking about a single service, I can't possibly write something that covers every other service controlled by all kind of people.

ASICSRUS

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:55:16 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:36:23 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:10:59 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! Roll Eyes

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception! Roll Eyes

nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

Math proof is when you set it on 93 percent and you see three reds pop up 'all the sudden when you bet bigger! >Google<: i don't get that second link?

I can reproduce in a movie realtime again and again how what you are saying is a bold face lie !!! I've been researching stuff like this for over 5 years!!!+) ROTFFLMAO you need to quit serving kool aid

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:36:23 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:10:59 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! Roll Eyes

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception! Roll Eyes

nobrainer=house always wins!

A proof is a sequence of steps that demonstrates that a given statement is true. You can learn more about it here and here.

You have a hard time reading posts, I hope you will read this one entirely. How you can scam me: 1) we define that I will give x BTC in case you prove ggdice is rigged, and that you will give me x BTC otherwise; 2) you never prove it, and never send the x BTC. Escrow solves this.

You won't be able to show that higher bets change the outcomes in any way because the bet amount is not taken into consideration when determining the outcome. The method for determining the results is described clearly on the site, and there are two links for checking the rolls yourself (I gave one earlier in this thread, you probably didn't manage to read the post).

ASICSRUS

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:10:59 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! Roll Eyes

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

\/\/hat constitutes proof?
so you are the operater of ggdice? how can i scam you by simply showing you how your site is rigged per higher bets changing the outcome resulting in lossing odds against the user?. It seems we have a bunch of you clowns following an industry standard of deception! Roll Eyes

nobrainer=house always wins!

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 04:04:39 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! Roll Eyes

I believe you are going to scam me, so the escrow is working just fine. Great.

Now, I don't know which are "these" games you're talking about. I can only talk about ggdice, and I'm willing to pay you (or anyone else if interested) if you prove it's rigged. No need to keep repeating this and inflating the post count, let's settle this outside this thread.

ASICSRUS

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 04:02:37 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

escrow is for scammers! i can prove these games are rigged right here right now will you pay me>>> no ,,,so go get a life! Roll Eyes

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:44:29 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

That's what the escrow is for.

ASICSRUS

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:41:45 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

I get the impression you aint going to pay even when i prove it ! Cheesy

lmfao

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:38:38 PM

i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it!

Do demonstrate then. No PM received, I take the deal is not interesting to you ?

ASICSRUS

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Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:30:36 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:09:11 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:43:23 PM

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites! Roll Eyes

imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

We need a escrow because I don't believe you will honor anything after you notice you can't prove what you say. I don't need a movie from the bets since I have all them stored.

If you're interested in doing the deal, send me a PM about it and how much you want to put into this and I will contact someone to escrow, otherwise I'm not continuing with this discussion.

what you are saying: escrow concept goes against the satoshi white paper, i can prove it's rigged by demonstrating it! Let people watch my movie, then vote on the obvious !!! Grin

====>YOU JUST LOST 1BTC!!!(or you just talking out your ass?)

arsenische

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If the player signs the bet, then the casino can prove the game was fair.

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 03:25:24 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:09:11 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:43:23 PM

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites! Roll Eyes

imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

We need a escrow because I don't believe you will honor anything after you notice you can't prove what you say. I don't need a movie from the bets since I have all them stored.

If you're interested in doing the deal, send me a PM about it and how much you want to put into this and I will contact someone to escrow, otherwise I'm not continuing with this discussion.

ASICSRUS

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 03:09:11 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:43:23 PM

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites! Roll Eyes

imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

yes Scamming by false representation>>
should i just send you my address now?..LOL i can prove it's rigged via higher bets triggering losing(kill switch) ~ i can make a movie for you to watch. no escrow i trust you just put your money where your mouth is !

knowitnothing

sr. member

Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:43:23 PM

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites! Roll Eyes

imho

The discussion is about whether it is possible to cheat the players or not. It is, and it is irrelevant whether it is off the chain, on the chain, a real casino in Las Vegas, or even -- believe it or not -- a live feed by ASICSRUS (or insanity dice).

You never proved any of the sites are scamming, although some of them could very well be. You said my site is rigged, so here is a deal I have to you: we can ask someone to escrow a certain BTC amount from both of us, if in 1 entire month you can prove that, then you get it all, otherwise I get it. If you are so certain it is a scam I don't see why you wouldn't do it, otherwise please keep your humble opinions to yourself. I can arrange this such that the escrow, and other people, receives every (signed) bet you make before the system decides the outcome, so you can check that no bets were modified, and you can always check for fair results.

ASICSRUS

member

Activity: 70

Merit: 10

Expert Computer Geek

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 02:33:55 PM

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:22:02 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 02:13:19 PM

Quote from: cbhelp on October 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PM

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time. the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice!

How can the player know the dice is not loaded ? How can the player know the throws are not using some mechanism to make the dice land at a certain value ? Also, how can the player even know the entire throw was done in a live feed ? Maybe just part of the throw is, the other is not.

even loaded dice would produce fairer results than these scam sites! Roll Eyes

imho

knowitnothing

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Activity: 294

Merit: 250

Quote from: ASICSRUS on October 16, 2013, 02:22:02 PM

Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 02:13:19 PM

Quote from: cbhelp on October 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PM

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time. the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice!

How can the player know the dice is not loaded ? How can the player know the throws are not using some mechanism to make the dice land at a certain value ? Also, how can the player even know the entire throw was done in a live feed ? Maybe just part of the throw is, the other is not.

ASICSRUS

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Quote from: knowitnothing on October 16, 2013, 02:13:19 PM

Quote from: cbhelp on October 16, 2013, 02:00:55 PM

the worst thing about of chain betting sites like just diced r that the owner knows the secret seed and can bet against his investors and steal all of the money at any time. the owner could make it look like thata random user came in and won all of the btc but really it was the owner stealing.

This is not a "feature" for the off the chain games, the same applies for the on the chain games. Open the verification page at satoshidice and you will find this: "In order to ensure that there is no way for the system to change the outcome of a bet, the secret keys used are decided ahead of time. They are not released right away, since they could be used to submit selective transactions and win bets unfairly".

To solve this we need a new method for picking the results, while still maintaining the provably fair part.

the only sure way i see is to have a live feed of someone actually throwing dice! hmmm
Wink

*watch!*

ASICSRUS

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Quote from: icedicedavid on October 16, 2013, 02:07:55 PM

Quote from: trout on October 16, 2013, 12:25:33 AM

here's a possible cheat for a site:
change the game the user played.
If the user bets on "high" ("red") and the result is a win, just pretend he bet on "low" (or "black" or whatever), so the result is a loss.
Or change any other parameters of the game, such as odds.
Keep everything else (hashes, etc.) the same.

The user would know he'd been cheated, but (s)he would have no way of proving it to anyone.

This problem does not exist with on-chain gaming sites, where the bets are made publicly.

I think this can be solved by introducing used-side private keys and randomness, but this complicates
the verification considerably

or am I missing something here?

https://ice-dice.com we don't roll high or low. you select a range to guess the number. you can choose 25-75 and if the number lands in between that you will win.

get out of here with that noise your site is rigged and you know it, plus you have major bugs/glitches! beta test with real btc?? Good Lord: you should go hide somewhere far away from here imo

Topic: problem with off-chain "provably fair" games - page 5. (Read 4799 times)