Topic: Proof of market (POM) - page 3. (Read 4904 times)

Correct, a block which does not meet the difficulty target on its hash does not constitute a valid proof that the "necessary" work was performed.  It is still a proof of work, however, as it does stand as a proof that some hashing work was done.  It is just not a proof of sufficient work having been done, where "sufficient" is defined in the extant form of difficulty target.


All proof is philosophical.  We only consider a valid hash as a meaningful assertion because of our shared context of a reality in which sha prefix collision is a difficult task.  This is a strictly philosophical notion, predicated upon that shared reality


It is more than this, the proof is tangible, in the form of a certificate, and this is key.

In proof-of-work the "sufficiently low hash" does actually certify the work.  It is a tangible form of the proof.  We can hold it, study it, share it, replicate it, asses it, and independently know it to be true.  We can look at it and point to it.  It is an actual thing.

In proof-of-stake the stake record (blockchain itself) and modular "signer selection" form a certificate.  We can look at the chain and know that the correct stakeholder was chosen to select transactions by redoing the same modular selection math.  It is a tangible form of the proof, we can hold it, share it, replicate it, asses it, and independently know it to be true.  We can look at it and point to it.  It is an actual thing.

In proof-of-play the recorded game log showing a winning play does actually certify the play.  We can look at the record of play and know that the coin was rightly won per the rules of the game.  It is a tangible log of the game-play forming a proof that the game-play happened correctly. We can hold it, share it, replicate it, asses it, and independently know it to be true.  We can look at it and point to it.  It is an actual thing.


How?  How is the evidence about the market made tangible, in any way?  How can we hold it, share it, replicate it, assess it, and independently know it to be true?  Where is it to be looked at?  How can I point to it and refer a peer to it?

Is it an actual thing?  How is it actualized, in what form?

WHERE IS IT?

I can post a bitcoin block proof here.  Look:

Tangible proof of sufficient work having been done on that block.  You can go to the chain, pull this block, compare against difficulty target, and independently know for certain that the proof holds

I can post a proof-of-play block proof here, too.  Look:

You can go to the chain, pull this block, seed a map with the nonce, re-execute all 2,284 frames of game-play, input all 5 button presses at the appropriate time, watch the moto player reach the finish and win his coin before the timer runs out, and independently know for certain that the proof holds.

I can post a stake record and modular selection math for a proof of stake coin here, too.  I won't, because the necessary information to confirm the proof as valid would be quite a bit of data to stick into the middle of some prose post, but I could do it.  You could then take that certificate, recalculate the same modular math, and arrive at the same conclusion about the outcome of who was selected to sign the block.  You can independently know for certain that the proof holds.

Please show me what one of your proof certificates looks like.  Please show me how I can take such a certificate and independently know for certain that the proof holds.  If you cannot do this you do not have a thing that can rightly be called a proof.

If your proof can not be delivered in some tangible form for some review by others, it is not much of a proof.  If your proof can't be held, shared, replicated, assesed, and independently known to be true, what exactly can it prove and to whom?


Huh?  I don't even know what you're trying to communicate on this one.


I hope you will go from an understanding that you may be wrong to an understanding of just how critically wrong you actually are, at which point I hope you would do the honorable thing and remove any claim of proof from your materials unless you can actually present some proofs for review.

The one and only POM coin I know is MICoin, and it is one of the best:

https://nxtforum.org/assets-board/(ann)(micoin)the-most-interesting-coin-in-the-world-pure-90-pom

90% POM as you can see.

Sure, but that evidence must see some formal treatment of presentation in order to constitute a proof.  It must be shown to have a structured relationship with the assumptions made and the conclusion drawn.  The evidence must be inexorably "linked up end to end" so that the conclusion follows, by way of the evidence relation, from the assumptions.

  Someone needs to be able to, independently, hold all of the evidence together and be able to justify the "compelling to accept" that the resulting assertion as true.  You can't have a proof which is entirely ephemeral, where the evidence is unstructured and ambient, and claim that it compels the mind toward acceptance.


Sure.  I don't argue this.  What you have presented is unquestionably a plan-of-market.  A plan is not a proof.  A plan can be a way to construct a proof, or it can be a way to evaluate a proof, but it cannot be the proof itself.


That is great, but irrelevant to the discussion at hand.


You are wrong.  If it is not feasible to encode all of the assumptions, background, and evidence into a logical proposition, and then feed that proposition into a mechanized model checker that can tell us if it holds (modulo the background theory provided) or not, then it is simply not a proof by any means.  So far, we have no way to structure either your "evidence of market" or "plan of market" into a formalize-able background theory.  We have no way structure the evidence as an unbroken chain from some assumptions to some conclusions.  When we have a way that we could do that, you will have a proof.  In the mean time, don't call something a proof when it isn't.  You literally can not be more wrong about something than this.


There is no question of breadth, here.  A plan cannot be a proof because it is inherently a speculative entity.  The conclusion it draws is a hope, a dream, a desired outcome.  The conclusion it draws cannot be necessarily called true or fact.  If it were a proof, we could assert the outcome as undeniable.  We can't do that with your conclusions, we can only hope for the best.


Again, I am not speaking at all about "programming" or "crypto" but simply about philosophy and the nature of reality.  We are not talking about algorithms or enciphering but about what artifacts in our shared existence can be said to assert what is true, and what artifacts can only suggest what might be.  You have no artifact that can assert that which is true, so you have no proofs.  This has nothing to do with coding, just facts.


Again, I do not disagree with you as to the relationship between economy and success of a crypto-currency.  My only issue is with your claim of having proven something about either or about the relationship itself.  I simply wish to know what it is you are claiming as evidently factual, and how you are proposing that you present this evidence in the structural form of something that we could call a proof.

If you can't do this, you don't call it a proof.

We are talking on two fronts, so I partly answer you on most questions, but answer me this in terms of word proof:

How can we name POW proof of work coin which is not proved (because it is not mined) it is plan to be proved but real proof is when it is mined? It will be prooved but many of them are not mined and proved so POW as a concept is just name and relationships you give are mostly philosophical. Proof is something promised a statement that is passed. That mean it takes time. POW, POS, POP is just statements which has to be done in coins. POM is also.

We did lots of work we promised, so lots of things were proved Smiley and please do not judge, it just show your behaviour Smiley and face Smiley

Dont want to defend myself but I did say that maybe I am wrong Smiley that shows my face Smiley

It is just programming thoughts, we are talking more spread. The evidence or argument that compels the mind to accept an assertion as true, I called that proof and a set of actions that have been thought of as a way to do or achieve something it is plan also our white paper is feasibility study which definition is "an analysis and evaluation of a proposed project to determine if it (1) is technically feasible, (2) is feasible within the estimated cost, and (3) will be profitable. Feasibility studies are almost always conducted where large sums are at stake. Also called feasibility analysis."

So we can call proof what we did or maybe I am wrong? I will be glad to prove that our plan is our proof because if you look in near past it is cool for understanding that proof of what we did is in the plan! Please do not look so narrow

I am really good in understanding what is POW and POS or other stuff, just to clear that but I would be also glad for you to understand that not only word proof stays in programming crypto language

But this is not the theme, to prove what is proof...we need to go further to understand that crypto needs economy and vice versa

A plan cannot be a proof.  A plan is a speculative outline with a proposal of intent.  A plan cannot be asserted as axiomatically true.  You cannot know from the structure of the plan that you will obtain the desired outcome, so nothing is proven.

To call something a proof implies that the artifact in question is axiomatic, acceptably complete, and logically consistent.  If you have something called a proof you should be able to easily and independently trace through it from any assumptions made to some "undeniable" conclusion.  (This is what I called "model check" in my prior post.)

If you cannot encode it in a logical proposition and verify it, mechanically, against an acceptable background theory then it is not a proof.  This is unavoidable.

If you cannot tell me the assumed axioms of your proof, the logical encoding of the structure of you proof, and the proposed claim arising from your proof then it is not a proof at all.

Please either clarify what gets proven by your "proof" of market, or else stop calling it a proof.  Otherwise someone might get confused and accidentally take you seriously.

Proof of market is category of economic usability coin. It uses POW or POS or any other technical model for transactions validations which you are using. But in terms of trends as there are many coins on market and lots of them are dead we decided to make concept which has business implementation. In our model there are benefits for investors, game developers and gamers too. We call it proof of market as it use model of real stock exchanges.

It is proportionally using coin on real market and its influence on price on markets. Today we need business in crypto not just engineering of it. When you connect those two activities you got POM. It will use some changes in terms of blockchain appropriate to our marketing plan very soon. There is lots of coins with no usability on real market (most of them). Proof of market is connecting price, promotion, POW (or other validation process), real market usability in once. It is not just programming feature, it is much more spreaded category.

POM is marketing plan connected with POW/POS or any other crypto validation system!

I have read your materials and they explain very little about this "proof" of market.  Can you tell me what your network proves, and how it structures the proof?  I would like to be able to verify your proofs in a model checker.  Certainly if your proofs are well formed then you should be able to guide me in doing so.

Ok,

this is not one of them proofs. It exists for many years in real forexes, markets and stock markets. We implemented it here on Freshcoin as economic value with criteria of usability. It says: you can use your coin and get big price only if your coin is usable on real market. Real market has its rules and it means that you need to first import your coin into it. So, we did that with freshcoin importing it into games.

There is unfortunately trying to copy this idea and called it POP or other, but we have marketing plan which explain everything of it

It is feasibility study also so it has measurements, criterias, analysis, exlploration and lots of stuff which is not just hot air, because we are announcing first games on 15th of October.

POM is new in crypto but old stuff in stock, so we just connected it. SO when some usability getting more, it push price. So we want stable uptrend price with usability!

cheers!