Topic: Proof-of-Stake [POS] (Read 1803 times)
I think peercoin's implementation of POS is the best. Low inflation and high level of security with minimal energy consumption. Also fees are burned so the rich do not get richer in percentage terms of their holdings.
Just letting you I might have quoted some of the posts in this forum here: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14728246
The feedback and response has been great. Thank you.
Thanks to all those who have posted, with careful consideration the BTA community will discuss specs as per suggestions or preferences.
Thanks to all those who have posted, with careful consideration the BTA community will discuss specs as per suggestions or preferences.
@pc888
i think short min. hold time is an imperative
1. if the network is running low on stakers and has super low diff. then a regular accounts that always stakes will be able to keep the network going.
2. now a whale with a super large chunk might game to hit a block every unit of minimum time (but they can be put in check via the max reward limit). if not this would cause big diff spikes seen in intervals of min. hold time, btw
3. stakers could run large wallet.dat files (dust bins) so that they are geared to stake 24/7 but they will likely have to wait weeks before the small lots gain weight, so these full time stakers will insure that they have a longtail of dust that eventually smooths out to an efficient staking of blocks ... they will basically act as seednodes as well ... so the trick is to make sure that they can help keep the block speed 'regular' and thus the diff chart 'smooth'
i think short min. hold time is an imperative
1. if the network is running low on stakers and has super low diff. then a regular accounts that always stakes will be able to keep the network going.
2. now a whale with a super large chunk might game to hit a block every unit of minimum time (but they can be put in check via the max reward limit). if not this would cause big diff spikes seen in intervals of min. hold time, btw
3. stakers could run large wallet.dat files (dust bins) so that they are geared to stake 24/7 but they will likely have to wait weeks before the small lots gain weight, so these full time stakers will insure that they have a longtail of dust that eventually smooths out to an efficient staking of blocks ... they will basically act as seednodes as well ... so the trick is to make sure that they can help keep the block speed 'regular' and thus the diff chart 'smooth'
Radium is the coin to stake. Look into it.
I like PoS variants with security deposits, like in Decred and perhaps in Ethereum in the future.
In these variants you must lock a part of your coins to receive rewards. That means that for the time you lock you coins, you are backing its value because you cannot sell them.
Proof-of-burn is pretty similar, although a little bit more risky, above all for "small" minters. In PoB you destroy your coins to get rewards, and never won't get them back, but the equation there is that it is very probable that your reward income is greater than the destroyed coin amount. But it has the same "backing" effect, as burnt coins obviously cannot be sold.
In these variants you must lock a part of your coins to receive rewards. That means that for the time you lock you coins, you are backing its value because you cannot sell them.
Proof-of-burn is pretty similar, although a little bit more risky, above all for "small" minters. In PoB you destroy your coins to get rewards, and never won't get them back, but the equation there is that it is very probable that your reward income is greater than the destroyed coin amount. But it has the same "backing" effect, as burnt coins obviously cannot be sold.
1 - 2 % POS
Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.
Closest is https://chainz.cryptoid.info/
Difficulty is listed.
But since PoS coin has different specs, viewing the difficulty does not really help determine the best amount of coins per block, only the people staking know that info.
Also some are hybrid PoW & PoS so the PoW difficulty will be shown if the last block found was PoW.
Many people believe that combining PoW & PoS makes a coin safer, it does not.
It gives two points of entry to guard instead of one.
Strong PoS but weak PoW , vulnerable coin.
Strong PoW but weak PoS , vulnerable coin.
The reason:
ZEIT & Mint dropped PoW was a security vulnerability discovered by Rat4 of Blackcoin.
Considering the fact that the Chinese currently control the Majority of the World's ASICS,
and the mining pools in China alone account for over 60% of BTC,
I would say PoW difficulty is irrelevant at this point as the battle for PoW security has already been lost.
The only real question for BTC & LTC & Doge holders, is how much trust do you have in the Chinese Government to protect your investments.
I agree with the statement regarding asics and infact any future mining hardware technology.
POS will definitely address that issue.
hybrid PoW & PoS is believed to be safer.
imo not really and issue, let PPC sort that debate out.
unless you want to scale to $Billions, then theoretic security issues, are less of a concern.
the major concern for an up start chain is getting the basics right to build a community/network, and i think the existing core code has proven that POS works, and we will see how much capital gets invested onto it.
hybrid PoW & PoS in practice is more complex (more bugs), yet the transitional versions (POW stops after 50k blocks etc) seem to work pretty good.
the ASIC Chinese Government relationship is interesting; don't doubt higher power within the Finance Ministery aren't contemplating the advantages of a digital currency that they literally control production of ... if they can also corner the markets ... things get very interesting.
imo not really and issue, let PPC sort that debate out.
unless you want to scale to $Billions, then theoretic security issues, are less of a concern.
the major concern for an up start chain is getting the basics right to build a community/network, and i think the existing core code has proven that POS works, and we will see how much capital gets invested onto it.
hybrid PoW & PoS in practice is more complex (more bugs), yet the transitional versions (POW stops after 50k blocks etc) seem to work pretty good.
the ASIC Chinese Government relationship is interesting; don't doubt higher power within the Finance Ministery aren't contemplating the advantages of a digital currency that they literally control production of ... if they can also corner the markets ... things get very interesting.
Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.
Closest is https://chainz.cryptoid.info/
Difficulty is listed.
But since PoS coin has different specs, viewing the difficulty does not really help determine the best amount of coins per block, only the people staking know that info.
Also some are hybrid PoW & PoS so the PoW difficulty will be shown if the last block found was PoW.
Many people believe that combining PoW & PoS makes a coin safer, it does not.
It gives two points of entry to guard instead of one.
Strong PoS but weak PoW , vulnerable coin.
Strong PoW but weak PoS , vulnerable coin.
The reason:
ZEIT & Mint dropped PoW was a security vulnerability discovered by Rat4 of Blackcoin.
Considering the fact that the Chinese currently control the Majority of the World's ASICS,
and the mining pools in China alone account for over 60% of BTC,
I would say PoW difficulty is irrelevant at this point as the battle for PoW security has already been lost.
The only real question for BTC & LTC & Doge holders, is how much trust do you have in the Chinese Government to protect your investments.
i have hopes of getting the right guys around a table to create some blend of coinmarketcap, coinwarz, and block explorer feeds that features POS only.
'a few days' ... I spent 6 months trying to figure if a certain minty coin would stake
'a few days' ... I spent 6 months trying to figure if a certain minty coin would stake
Unfortunately you can only find out the difficulty of a coin after you have downloaded the wallet and spent a few days syncing it. As far as I know there isn't a website that lists difficulty of PoS coins the way they do for PoW coins.
The thread has some good feedback and ideas regarding POS.
When it comes to specifics regarding tweaking POS, the consensus is what we will go with.
Most of all it needs to benefit new users, without making bagholders rich and controlling.
When it comes to specifics regarding tweaking POS, the consensus is what we will go with.
Most of all it needs to benefit new users, without making bagholders rich and controlling.
re: POS3 and POSP
i am not well informed so will let someone in the audience field that
imo generally a hybrid with at least 4 POW pools +easy to POS is going to offer "greatest security"
i am not well informed so will let someone in the audience field that
imo generally a hybrid with at least 4 POW pools +easy to POS is going to offer "greatest security"
examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin 1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin 1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block
i like these, at the very least it prevents a huge whale from only staking every 30days and hammering the diff.
the other option is limiting block max reward (like above examples) but then super long confirmation/release like 5 days
but too long of confirm periods are very dangerous if the network has few stakers ... it will lock up because no one has available coins to stake
So what would the exact params of a very fair POS coin with good security look like?
Something that does not favour huge wallets, but still gives great security and encourages holding and staking?
POS3 and POSP seem the current favs. But what params would you change in blackcoin to make it even better?
examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin 1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin 1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block
i like these, at the very least it prevents a huge whale from only staking every 30days and hammering the diff.
in these coins a whale is forced into block splitting to maximize returns (which is complex) but it is little benefit for him to have a super 'heavy' weight.
the other option is limiting block max reward (like above examples) and then super long confirmation/release like 5 days
the coin whale has no choice but take a time out.
but too long of confirm periods are very dangerous if the network has few stakers ... it will lock up because no one has available coins to stake
orb is awesome ... hybrid pow is neoscrypt (no ASIC) and POS is flat @ 1 ... nearly the best low inflation fail safe combo i've seen ... CBX was the best but they pulled the POW.
stake pools are a moral hazard [hackers/bad operators/both]
@alyssa85 you getting at the mysterious thing that is searched for ...
a) how many coins do you need to stake? (sprouts/hyp way tough unless you have big lots)
b) right distro patterns? peer, nova, CLAM (already centralized)
my ideal number is that at least the Top1000 accounts have a chance of staking every 24/hrs, Top3000 is even better
the trick then seems to set a max limit on block reward, and have quick hold times, perhaps set 12hr hold on new block confirm/release
@alyssa85 you getting at the mysterious thing that is searched for ...
a) how many coins do you need to stake? (sprouts/hyp way tough unless you have big lots)
b) right distro patterns? peer, nova, CLAM (already centralized)
my ideal number is that at least the Top1000 accounts have a chance of staking every 24/hrs, Top3000 is even better
the trick then seems to set a max limit on block reward, and have quick hold times, perhaps set 12hr hold on new block confirm/release
You need to investigate the difficulty of a PoS coin before you go in, don't just look at the advertised % return. If the difficulty is high, you need a lot more coins just to compete and stake, and your return will be low.
Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.
As with everything, you need to research it.
Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.
As with everything, you need to research it.
absolutely needs to be looked at
some coins do stake blocks with set amounts aswell
gives you a little more of a chance but the big wallets well
always dominate
examples:
bitbean 1000 pr block
orbcoin 1 pr block
energycoin 5 pr block
You need to investigate the difficulty of a PoS coin before you go in, don't just look at the advertised % return. If the difficulty is high, you need a lot more coins just to compete and stake, and your return will be low.
Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.
As with everything, you need to research it.
Example: HYP advertises a high state, but in reality the difficult has risen, so you need to group your coins in bigger chunks to optimise for staking. Clams also sounds good, till you realise that JustDice has pretty much cornered the market for staking that coin and you won't be able to compete with their gigantic wallet.
As with everything, you need to research it.
the thread bitcoinnational posted is great, lots of info
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/talk15bitcointalk-est2014yr4-btc-864994
i agree i dont think you want to go higher than 15%
the concept of this coin is not about staking its about your roadmap (Barter platform)
but for keeping the network strong you need people staking so % point can't be over looked
personally i would like to see atleast 10%
if your a staker coin enthusiast you can only run so many wallets at any given time
to low of a % point and people wont keep wallet running if they have multiple stakers
im speaking as a person who stakes alot of coins ,many people might not care about
% point, for me i have to justify running wallet, no different than mining a coin
im invested in bata becasue i like the dev/roadmap/community
i realize staking is secondary ,but its always nice to earn a little interest on your investment
while waiting for development
my 2 bata
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/talk15bitcointalk-est2014yr4-btc-864994
i agree i dont think you want to go higher than 15%
the concept of this coin is not about staking its about your roadmap (Barter platform)
but for keeping the network strong you need people staking so % point can't be over looked
personally i would like to see atleast 10%
if your a staker coin enthusiast you can only run so many wallets at any given time
to low of a % point and people wont keep wallet running if they have multiple stakers
im speaking as a person who stakes alot of coins ,many people might not care about
% point, for me i have to justify running wallet, no different than mining a coin
im invested in bata becasue i like the dev/roadmap/community
i realize staking is secondary ,but its always nice to earn a little interest on your investment
while waiting for development
my 2 bata
yes that link and some others on that page are also great reference points (& your links too) - thanks
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.14486879
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