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Topic: Proof of Stake with an Ultra Low Interest Rate - page 2. (Read 2332 times)

legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
In the case that in the future there is some type of computation attack that will be able to solve a privkey based on previous signed transactions. The more you stake from one address, the more vulnerable it would be. It has been a long while since I read about that one, but I do believe it was one of the reasons that change addresses are used in bitcoin.

Hmm,

From the sound of his post he made it seem like it was something specific to only Staking wallets, but after seeing your reply ,
would it not be more accurate the number of transactions signed is what they are worried about , otherwise why would BTC  a non staking coin care?

 Cool
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Blockchain Developer
Quote
Just a quick note,
Users Buy & Hold BTC with 0 interest ,
if a PoS coin would increase in value, why would it not receive the same treatment?

Because staking consumes resources. Having a utxo held by an address on bitcoin network does not, unless you are running a full node or something.

Additionally, having a staking wallet is a vulnerability. If Bitcoin turned to PoS tomorrow an I had, say, 1000 BTC, I for sure wouldn't stake them. They would be staying on their offline generated addresses.

What you COULD do, is a system, where people can stake with some means and send the coins to an offline address. But then, your staking weight couldn't reliably be the same as your wallet size.

Unless you'd create a system, in which people could stake "in the name of" a given address (with all staking rewards getting sent to that address of course), without ever proving that they hold the private key. This would make for an interesting experiment for sure.


You'll have to explain that one, how is a staking wallet more of a  vulnerability in your opinion than a BTC Wallet?
I don't follow your logic on that one.


 Cool

In the case that in the future there is some type of computation attack that will be able to solve a privkey based on previous signed transactions. The more you stake from one address, the more vulnerable it would be. It has been a long while since I read about that one, but I do beleive it was one of the reasons that change addresses are used in bitcoin.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
Quote
Just a quick note,
Users Buy & Hold BTC with 0 interest ,
if a PoS coin would increase in value, why would it not receive the same treatment?

Because staking consumes resources. Having a utxo held by an address on bitcoin network does not, unless you are running a full node or something.

Additionally, having a staking wallet is a vulnerability. If Bitcoin turned to PoS tomorrow an I had, say, 1000 BTC, I for sure wouldn't stake them. They would be staying on their offline generated addresses.

What you COULD do, is a system, where people can stake with some means and send the coins to an offline address. But then, your staking weight couldn't reliably be the same as your wallet size.

Unless you'd create a system, in which people could stake "in the name of" a given address (with all staking rewards getting sent to that address of course), without ever proving that they hold the private key. This would make for an interesting experiment for sure.


You'll have to explain that one, how is a staking wallet more of a  vulnerability in your opinion than a BTC Wallet?
I don't follow your logic on that one.


 Cool
hero member
Activity: 588
Merit: 500
i think is very low reward
is POS coin only can get reward
Yearly Interest Rate is only .0001% (.000001) same without reward
sr. member
Activity: 1050
Merit: 277
That sounds pointless. What impact will such a little make ? None that's what. It will change nothing. I honestly dont see your point of this thread. Why would anyone do that ? May as well make it just a pow coin.

Its like saying what will happen if you get a hipos coin like 10000000000% which is the opposite of having it really low. It would die both ways. You need balance. Going to the extreme in either way is a bad idea.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Quote
Just a quick note,
Users Buy & Hold BTC with 0 interest ,
if a PoS coin would increase in value, why would it not receive the same treatment?

Because staking consumes resources. Having a utxo held by an address on bitcoin network does not, unless you are running a full node or something.

Additionally, having a staking wallet is a vulnerability. If Bitcoin turned to PoS tomorrow an I had, say, 1000 BTC, I for sure wouldn't stake them. They would be staying on their offline generated addresses.

What you COULD do, is a system, where people can stake with some means and send the coins to an offline address. But then, your staking weight couldn't reliably be the same as your wallet size.

Unless you'd create a system, in which people could stake "in the name of" a given address (with all staking rewards getting sent to that address of course), without ever proving that they hold the private key. This would make for an interesting experiment for sure.
legendary
Activity: 1330
Merit: 1000
Blockchain Developer
Quote
Just a quick note,
Users Buy & Hold BTC with 0 interest ,
if a PoS coin would increase in value, why would it not receive the same treatment?

Because staking consumes resources. Having a utxo held by an address on bitcoin network does not, unless you are running a full node or something.
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
Let say we create a Proof of Stake Coin with an Ultra Low Interest Rate

Yearly Interest Rate is only .0001% (.000001) ,

With such a low rate, many would say there is no incentive to stake.
However at such a low rate, with a little investment it's price per coin can be made very stable or pushed to new heights.

So what would make you stake such a coin?

1.  Would you accept payment in that coin on a monthly basis to maintain a node 24x7 that stakes?

2.  Would you stake just to secure the network and protect your investment while the Price per coin gets higher.
    (Blocking someone else from securing what little interest their was.)

3. Nothing at all make you stake such a coin.

Any other Ideas, what would make you stake such a coin.

Thanks.


FYI:
Just a quick note,
Users Buy & Hold BTC with 0 interest ,
if a PoS coin would increase in value, why would it not receive the same treatment?
legendary
Activity: 1092
Merit: 1000
Shills incoming… yawn.

Isn't NXT basically a PoS coin without inflation? Nodes earn only transaction fees, don't they? Looks like it's working ok for them.

i am sure that LEOcoin is still best POS coin!

Well you're the only one, if you can't at least stay on topic don't post here.
Otherwise , I will just lock the thread because you are making it pointless with your false advertising.

Topic
Re: Proof of Stake with an Ultra Low Interest Rate


 Cool
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
http://www.leocoinapp.com/
Shills incoming… yawn.

Isn't NXT basically a PoS coin without inflation? Nodes earn only transaction fees, don't they? Looks like it's working ok for them.

i am sure that LEOcoin is still best POS coin!
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Shills incoming… yawn.

Isn't NXT basically a PoS coin without inflation? Nodes earn only transaction fees, don't they? Looks like it's working ok for them.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
http://www.leocoinapp.com/
i think you have a good idea here because with such a low interest people are more forced to buy insted of hoarding on their interest, and this will make the price stronger and the coin not die after few months from the launch


Yeah you are right here!
For excample that altcoin LEOcoin lounch 2014 and now live almost 3 years and community keep rise!
Guys keep attack and say scam but community is bigger and bigger and 1 year ago 2 exchanges trade it now 8-9 trade this coin!
Now when they fork coin 01.07. 2016 on solo pos from pow/pos then community is evdn bigger and coin value keep slow rise!
In 2017 some new dev stuff will happen with that coin!
But i like coin becouse pos,big community and know founders that are supported by uk and usa goverment 👍🏼
legendary
Activity: 2590
Merit: 1022
Leading Crypto Sports Betting & Casino Platform
i think you have a good idea here because with such a low interest people are more forced to buy insted of hoarding on their interest, and this will make the price stronger and the coin not die after few months from the launch
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
you should Keep in mind that PoS was designed to secure the blockchain and confirm Transaction
as some Kind of energy efficience method ...  compared to Mining via PoW.

and not for generating coins or giving x% interest per year as Marketing idea.

You are right and this is a big problem with PoS-coins:

- If the interest rate is too low, people will go to some other coin, where it is higher.
- If it's too high, the coin will die at some point.

Finding the sweet spot seems like an almost impossible task. Here's a crazy idea: what would happen, if users could vote on interest rate regularly, let's say, quarterly? You take all numbers proposed and find the median. Some will state crazy high rates, others zero, hopefully, a lot of people would be sensible enough to realize that choosing the right amount secures the future of their coin, so maybe, it would be a way to apply "collective wisdom" (I'm not necessarily a big fan of that concept in general) to this problem.


I think users are too stupid to make good decision. Having votes is ok but people are very bad at making decisions that serve their long term interest (look at election!)

There are studies implying, that the more proficient someone views themselves and less proficient they see others in a given technique, the less proficient they usually are. I'm not quite sure whether this is necessarily applicable to intelligence as well. Let's see if we can find out Wink

Seriously, though, the concept of collective intelligence is, that a single person may be wrong, but a group usually isn't, especially in a field, that doesn't really have to do with knowledge, but for example with finding a given number. I've read somewhere about an example being the "how many beads in a jar" question, where participants are supposed to guess how many beads a glass jar contains. Interestingly enough, if you take as many guesses as possible, the individuals are mostly wrong, but the median is extremely close to the real number.

I think we have a similar case here for a few reasons. One of them is, that there is no "optimal" number, because every number falls victim to a conflict of interests. Plus, while you can exclude really high interest rates, optimal inflation is not a physical constant. The system itself can adapt to it.

The question whether or not you want few experts to decide on a number or the collective is almost a philosophical question, until you apply it: once you create a coin, that has votable interest rates, users will vote on whether they like this idea or not by adapting the coin or not. This in itself is pretty much an application of collective intelligence Smiley
Coincidentally, this is actually happening all the time.
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
http://www.leocoinapp.com/
you should Keep in mind that PoS was designed to secure the blockchain and confirm Transaction
as some Kind of energy efficience method ...  compared to Mining via PoW.

and not for generating coins or giving x% interest per year as Marketing idea.

You are right and this is a big problem with PoS-coins:

- If the interest rate is too low, people will go to some other coin, where it is higher.
- If it's too high, the coin will die at some point.

Finding the sweet spot seems like an almost impossible task. Here's a crazy idea: what would happen, if users could vote on interest rate regularly, let's say, quarterly? You take all numbers proposed and find the median. Some will state crazy high rates, others zero, hopefully, a lot of people would be sensible enough to realize that choosing the right amount secures the future of their coin, so maybe, it would be a way to apply "collective wisdom" (I'm not necessarily a big fan of that concept in general) to this problem.


I think users are too stupid to make good decision. Having votes is ok but people are very bad at making decisions that serve their long term interest (look at election!)


YES! you are right here.
newbie
Activity: 15
Merit: 0
you should Keep in mind that PoS was designed to secure the blockchain and confirm Transaction
as some Kind of energy efficience method ...  compared to Mining via PoW.

and not for generating coins or giving x% interest per year as Marketing idea.

You are right and this is a big problem with PoS-coins:

- If the interest rate is too low, people will go to some other coin, where it is higher.
- If it's too high, the coin will die at some point.

Finding the sweet spot seems like an almost impossible task. Here's a crazy idea: what would happen, if users could vote on interest rate regularly, let's say, quarterly? You take all numbers proposed and find the median. Some will state crazy high rates, others zero, hopefully, a lot of people would be sensible enough to realize that choosing the right amount secures the future of their coin, so maybe, it would be a way to apply "collective wisdom" (I'm not necessarily a big fan of that concept in general) to this problem.


I think users are too stupid to make good decision. Having votes is ok but people are very bad at making decisions that serve their long term interest (look at election!)
sr. member
Activity: 420
Merit: 250
http://www.leocoinapp.com/
There is great coin with solo pos 10-20%!
http://www.leocoin.org/WhatisProofofStake.aspx

https://coinmarketcap.com/currencies/leocoin/#markets

I hold 100k so i got approx 55 LEOcoin a day and keep sale! I buy them atv0.06$ and 0.10$!

Leocoin is a rich get richer coin,
LEOcoin Balance    Approximate annual percentage reward
0 - 999.9999              0%
1,000 - 4,999.9999    10%
5,000 - 49,999.9999    15%
50,000+                    20%

This discussion is about staking incentives for coins with ultra low interest rates.

 Cool



Yeah,can you imagine for exchanges how happy they are since if they hold at least 50k in cold storage they can stake every single coin that is on his exchange and receive 20% LOL this is crazy.
exchnages that not add LEOcoin are most stupid exchanges if you ask me,but ok,they think they are smart but they are not!



hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
you should Keep in mind that PoS was designed to secure the blockchain and confirm Transaction
as some Kind of energy efficience method ...  compared to Mining via PoW.

and not for generating coins or giving x% interest per year as Marketing idea.

You are right and this is a big problem with PoS-coins:

- If the interest rate is too low, people will go to some other coin, where it is higher.
- If it's too high, the coin will die at some point.

Finding the sweet spot seems like an almost impossible task. Here's a crazy idea: what would happen, if users could vote on interest rate regularly, let's say, quarterly? You take all numbers proposed and find the median. Some will state crazy high rates, others zero, hopefully, a lot of people would be sensible enough to realize that choosing the right amount secures the future of their coin, so maybe, it would be a way to apply "collective wisdom" (I'm not necessarily a big fan of that concept in general) to this problem.
legendary
Activity: 2282
Merit: 1051
unnamed.Exchange, join the Cool Kids!!!
you should Keep in mind that PoS was designed to secure the blockchain and confirm Transaction
as some Kind of energy efficience method ...  compared to Mining via PoW.

and not for generating coins or giving x% interest per year as Marketing idea.
hero member
Activity: 994
Merit: 513
Here's a crazy idea I had a while back:

Think of a coin with fixed supply, but inactivity is punished: Every X number of blocks, a wallet that hasn't been active in some way (i.e. mentioned on the blockchainfor in one of those blocks, either by transactions or staking) loses a small percentage of it's holdings, until a certain minimum amount of dust is reached, which vanishes after the next X blocks, leaving the wallet empty. The amount lost will be paid out to those who stake.

Of course, this would have a lot of implications, some good, some bad:

- People would stake just to keep their coins from disappearing.
- Cold wallets wouldn't really be a thing.
- You probably wouldn't need transaction fees.
- Coins won't get lost in wallets whose privkeys are unknown.
- …

Cold wallets could lease unspendable balance to an on-line wallet - this would improve security of the network without disadvantaging folk who genuinely need to keep large balances off-line for obvious reasons. You could limit the lease period to 30 or 60 days to stop the coins being left on a dvd+r and ensure the owner 'engaged with the network' periodically. You could also make the lease a 'one to one' deal - ie The hot wallet with public key A can only stake leased coins from one cold wallet with public address B.

Yeah, I was thinking about some way to implement a certain class of addresses, where you could circumvent the not-having-a-good-long-term-holding-solution. But if you make that too easy, everybody is going to use just that and won't bother with the "normal", money-losing kind.

Your idea isn't a bad solution to that issue. Other solutions could be a ticket-style approach like Decred or Hodl-coin(or whatever its name was), where you lock up your funds for a period of time.

Big holders would probably set up a system in which dust amounts are sent to their cold wallets to keep them active, so finding an alternate solution seems pretty important.

A big problem this coin would have to deal with would be its massive overhead: You would have to check a big part of the blockchain for inactive addresses, then perform transactions on them. This alone could probably fill up transaction limits, if not implemented the right way.
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