Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin)

nameface

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Quote from: LaggedOnUser on April 24, 2013, 08:08:39 AM

Having drained all those PP jokes out of my system, I have a question. Given two systems (proof-of-work and proof-of-stake), can anyone think of more systems?

Such as:
* proof-of-identity: You have to prove your real identity (such as signing up through Facebook or Google+ account), which controls the currency on a per-person basis, not just a per-algorithm basis. Plus you can be more sure who you are sending money to, develop reputation (like Ebay sellers), etc.
* proof-of-commodity: An altcoin backed by some online commodity, such as offering units of future execution of computer time on useful tasks, or units of storage capacity. Computer time and storage space are commodities, yet have the unique property that they can be transferred online, and hence are a suitably scarce basis for an online currency. (Note: Bitcoin et al. consume computer time in their production, they don't use computer time as a backing).

What else could there be?

Maybe something with a proof-of-reputation built on your proof-of-identity idea. Reward based on positive feedback in a WoT built into the ledger.

LaggedOnUser

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Having drained all those PP jokes out of my system, I have a question. Given two systems (proof-of-work and proof-of-stake), can anyone think of more systems?

Such as:
* proof-of-identity: You have to prove your real identity (such as signing up through Facebook or Google+ account), which controls the currency on a per-person basis, not just a per-algorithm basis. Plus you can be more sure who you are sending money to, develop reputation (like Ebay sellers), etc.
* proof-of-commodity: An altcoin backed by some online commodity, such as offering units of future execution of computer time on useful tasks, or units of storage capacity. Computer time and storage space are commodities, yet have the unique property that they can be transferred online, and hence are a suitably scarce basis for an online currency. (Note: Bitcoin et al. consume computer time in their production, they don't use computer time as a backing).

What else could there be?

LaggedOnUser

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Quote from: nameface on April 06, 2013, 11:47:46 AM

Quote from: smoothie on April 06, 2013, 11:34:12 AM

bitcoin > PEE PEE

+10

I saw you on a ppcoin thread, you just like saying PEE PEE hahaha (now they are now talking about changing the name).

Obv BTC beats the pants off all other coins combined.

PPCoin... another altcoin, down the drain!
Why did they name it PPCoin? Because they wanted it to make a big splash!
Greenback, meet the yellowback... PPCoin!
PPCoin... now sponsored by asparagus, so don't forget to eat your veggies!
Now there's PPCoin... news so good you can't hold it in! Soon you too will be jumping up and down with excitement!
PPCoin... the altcoin that has the most liquidity!
Yes, that is a jar of PPCoin that I am storing under my desk... why do you ask?
Don't forget to wash each time you handle your PPCoin!
PPCoin... you don't need a computer to mine it, just use your kidneys!
PPCoin... for best results, don't forget to flush your cache!
Today in the altcoin race, PPCoin is #1 and SolidCoin is #2! We're #1!!!!

jk... I think PPCoin is cool and am pool-mining some right now.

Now if you excuse me, I need to go deposit some more PP into the pool... bwahaha! Cheesy

Balthazar

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Post updated, and I'm sorry for this offtopic

nameface

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Quote from: Balthazar on April 10, 2013, 09:23:10 AM

We destroyed "premine" + ~40k. So, maybe it's time to take a closer look to things which you are talking about.

Yeah I didn't mean to say anything negative about NVC, sorry.
disclaimer: I have absolutely no idea what I'm talking about re: NVC.

Balthazar

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Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Pre-mined and they lied about it.

It may be surprising, but you are lying now. Or simply believe to lying person like smoothie. He lying about any altcoin except LTC. Cheesy

Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Gave it an awful reputation.

We don't care about "reputation", created by reputationless trolls, because they simply has nothing behind their words. Unlike me and another participants of our projects. We already made for BTC and LTC community more than they ever will be capable to do. And it hurts them, they had nothing to oppose it... It's the main reason of their silence in real discussion. They simply can't answer the questions like "What did you done for LTC or BTC community?".

Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Plus I believe they launched the coin in some Russian forum and users here didn't find out about until later (I may be wrong on that one).

It's partially true. It was announced here(in Russian subforum), 2 months before starting the chain.

Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Plus Scrypt is more energy intensive that SHA, which kind of defeats half the point of PPCoin (being energy efficient as possible).

Scrypt used only for PoW blocks. So, there is no difference with PPC in sense of long-term energy-efficiency, because in the future stakeholders will generate dominant part of blocks, in fact almost all from it. For this moment, network still in "bootstrap" phase, while there are no such coins volume, which will be able to generate enough stakes according to "1 block per 10 minutes" blocks rate rule.

Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 11:01:12 PM

Ah ok, so it's a sort of mutant coin conceived by greed. Interesting.

We publicly destroyed "premine" + ~40k. So, maybe it's time to take a closer look to things which you are talking about. Wink

giszmo

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Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 02:08:55 PM

Quote from: VforVictory on April 08, 2013, 02:06:03 PM

NVC also utilises PoS as well.

I know nothing about NVC... It uses everything?
many ppl rag on it, call it a scamcoin etc.... and the price has been falling. What gives?

Pre-mined and they lied about it. Gave it an awful reputation. Plus I believe they launched the coin in some Russian forum and users here didn't find out about until later (I may be wrong on that one).

Plus Scrypt is more energy intensive that SHA, which kind of defeats half the point of PPCoin (being energy efficient as possible).

If you combine POW with POS which you have to to bootstrap I think, you are kind of free to pick whichever hashing there is and resources will go into both hardware and electricity to the extent of the coins mined worth independent of the specific algorithm. Scrypt is preferred by some funny coins because it can be used on a default computer competitively somehow maybe longer than others. Maybe.

nameface

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Quote from: mr_random on April 08, 2013, 02:18:11 PM

Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 02:08:55 PM

Quote from: VforVictory on April 08, 2013, 02:06:03 PM

NVC also utilises PoS as well.

I know nothing about NVC... It uses everything?
many ppl rag on it, call it a scamcoin etc.... and the price has been falling. What gives?

Pre-mined and they lied about it. Gave it an awful reputation. Plus I believe they launched the coin in some Russian forum and users here didn't find out about until later (I may be wrong on that one).

Plus Scrypt is more energy intensive that SHA, which kind of defeats half the point of PPCoin (being energy efficient as possible).

Ah ok, so it's a sort of mutant coin conceived by greed. Interesting.

mr_random

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Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 02:08:55 PM

Quote from: VforVictory on April 08, 2013, 02:06:03 PM

NVC also utilises PoS as well.

I know nothing about NVC... It uses everything?
many ppl rag on it, call it a scamcoin etc.... and the price has been falling. What gives?

Pre-mined and they lied about it. Gave it an awful reputation. Plus I believe they launched the coin in some Russian forum and users here didn't find out about until later (I may be wrong on that one).

Plus Scrypt is more energy intensive that SHA, which kind of defeats half the point of PPCoin (being energy efficient as possible).

nameface

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Quote from: VforVictory on April 08, 2013, 02:06:03 PM

NVC also utilises PoS as well.

I know nothing about NVC... It uses everything?
many ppl rag on it, call it a scamcoin etc.... and the price has been falling. What gives?

VforVictory

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V for Victory or Rather JustV8

Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 01:35:07 PM

Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 12:09:37 PM

BTC - the best coin
LTC - another version of the best coin, for the lulz [note: uses SCRYPT]
NMC - unique name-based protocol
PPC - POS integration
DVC - structure supports development

forgot about scrypt, nvc and ltc use it

NVC also utilises PoS as well.

nameface

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Quote from: nameface on April 08, 2013, 12:09:37 PM

BTC - the best coin
LTC - another version of the best coin, for the lulz [note: uses SCRYPT]
NMC - unique name-based protocol
PPC - POS integration
DVC - structure supports development

forgot about scrypt, nvc and ltc use it

nameface

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Quote from: tacotime on April 08, 2013, 12:34:35 PM

There is never a point when there is no block reward left for both PoW and PoS (Ppcoin gives continuous yield of 1% for PoS forever). When MC2 hit 1% yearly inflation, it locks in and switches to a voting system that lets users increase or decrease block reward inflation by plus or minux 1% max.

The fees system is different too -- PoW miners obtain fees while PoS miners destroy fees. So, PoW miners always have the advantage, but PoS miners can antagonize PoW miners and deflate the coin supply via fee destruction.

I feel like it's the dawm of the Cambrian Period allover again.

tacotime

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There is never a point when there is no block reward left for both PoW and PoS (Ppcoin gives continuous yield of 1% for PoS forever). When MC2 hit 1% yearly inflation, it locks in and switches to a voting system that lets users increase or decrease block reward inflation by plus or minux 1% max.

The fees system is different too -- PoW miners obtain fees while PoS miners destroy fees. So, PoW miners always have the advantage, but PoS miners can antagonize PoW miners and deflate the coin supply via fee destruction.

nameface

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Quote from: tacotime on April 08, 2013, 12:16:54 PM

This is why I made MC2 with favour being passed to the PoW blocks -- I didn't want the PoS system eventually overpowering the PoW system because a system which gives interest simply upon holding coins tends to make the rich much richer and increases income inequality in the long run, which is an undesirable property of current global financial institutions.

I think the Freecoin incorporates demurrage. Maybe FRC should be worth more, if the POS is implemented wrong in PPC.

In the long run with PPC and BTC all the coins get paid out. When there's no block reward left, does the POS reward system work on transaction fees like BTC mining reward?

tacotime

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Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: giszmo on April 07, 2013, 03:54:28 PM

My problem with a heavy POS dependency from the start is the bootstrapping. How should this coin be evenly distributed ever? Therefore I hope Bitcoin slowly adapts POS at some point years from now to stop the sin of wasting tons of uranium on securing what could be secured with tons of Bitcoins as well.

I'd say it's not just the bootstrapping either. A large part of Bitcoin's appeal seems to be based on its egalitarian claims. One of those claims is that the "proof of work" scheme (and FOSS) allows anyone to issue some of the reserve coins as long as they fight for it, and in this case a fair fight is supposed to be an equal fight. Whereas "Proof of stake" changes all that by protecting wealthy stake-holders and handicapping those with a smaller stake, which sounds like the end result could be a monopoly.

Despite many people's objections and arguments that it should be decentralised, this seems like an interesting proposition. If this cash system is just one out of many competing types of cash in an ecosystem awash with 10s or 100s of crypto-currencies, and there's a good environment for creating new competitors (FOSS, reasonable freedom of information, dissidents don't get jailed...) then I see no problem with PoS coins having central controllers.

It's curious to observe the circularity in the way Bitcoin is evolving. Decentralised --> Centralised --> Decentralised --> Centralised...

This is why I made MC2 with favour being passed to the PoW blocks -- I didn't want the PoS system eventually overpowering the PoW system because a system which gives interest simply upon holding coins tends to make the rich much richer and increases income inequality in the long run, which is an undesirable property of current global financial institutions.

nameface

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Quote from: giszmo on April 07, 2013, 03:54:28 PM

It's not only about electricity. ASICs are a huge step forward for the environment as ASICs cost so much to build (for now) that the overall calculation
profit = mining output - mining effort = mining output - electricity costs - hardware costs - bandwidth costs
with profit close to zero and mining output being 25Ƀ per 10 minutes:
3600Ƀ/day = electricity costs + hardware costs + bandwidth costs
make the equation's big post shift away from electricity to the hardware costs.
With POS the equation should be:
3600Ƀ/day = Ƀ holding "costs" + electricity costs + hardware costs + bandwidth costs

People would invest less into electricity (that destroys the environment) and hardware (that also ends up on the waste dump very quickly) and more into Bitcoin itself to protect Bitcoin. The perfect solution to achieve this might not be available yet but I find it very intriguing to search that solution.

A "Perfectcoin" would have an ideal balance of all features. While a single cryptocoin (bitcoin) can change and evolve over time, I don't think this is enough to serve the global market. There must be at least 5-10 coins with different properties that create a Perfectcoin balance.

This balance already exists (regardless of the fact that bitcoin has 95%+ of the capitalization). After reading more about PPCoin and dev Sunny King, I vote PPCoin into my vision of a perfectcoin balance:

BTC - the best coin
LTC - another version of the best coin, for the lulz
NMC - unique name-based protocol
PPC - POS integration
DVC - structure supports development

We can explore the effects of the various properties of these coins on the market simply by owning them. I keep ~2.5%+ of my portfolio in each one of these coins.

This thread seems to conclude that POS is VERY interesting, but needs time to incubate in PPCoin.

hanzac

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I hope the stake can have more types. Just thinking the decentralized network as the decentralized bank, if it could specify the stake as many types, like 1-month stake (a% interest), 3-month stake (b% interest), 12-month stake (c% interest), 3 years stake (d% interest), etc. (a < b < c < d).

We can configure the stake types for a certain amount of coins and if the money is in stake, we can also force terminate the stake status & don't gain the interest.

I think currently the stake in PPCoin is too simple logic, can not have some greater effects. Actually, the stake can have many usages.

giszmo

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Quote from: chriswen on April 07, 2013, 05:37:16 PM

Well, bitcoin block reward will drop and less electricity will be wasted.

Wrong.
Blocks will get full this year and people will start paying fees -> more electricity will be wasted.
Price will rise much faster than 100%/4years -> more electricity will be wasted.

chriswen

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Well, bitcoin block reward will drop and less electricity will be wasted.

Topic: Proof of Work VS. Proof of Stake (Bitcoin - PPCoin) (Read 11364 times)