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Topic: Proposal: Idea for a much more stable bitcoin - page 2. (Read 4899 times)

newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
He is saying that, should you mistake the self bootstrapping of a new currency for a speculative bubble (or vice versa) you are likely to make a serious error in investment choices.

Ehh.. I would argue they're one in the same. Either way you're speculating. Could pay off, might not.
hero member
Activity: 672
Merit: 500

Bitcoin is getting more and more stable all the time ... just another non-problem.

Wider adoption will introduce more stability will introduce wider adoption will ....

(see chodpaba time series analysis, the waves are getting broader and longer with each cycle => percentage-wise the volatility will decrease)

As I type, MtGox, Low: 13.51  High: 16.5

That's a change of 22.1% IN ONE DAY.  This is stability?  For perspective, the Dollar moved against the Euro by 0.8% today.  The dollar has fallen against the Euro by about the same 22% margin.... it just took EIGHT YEARS rather than a day.
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.

Not sure what you are referring to here exactly, clarify if you could.

He is saying that, should you mistake the self bootstrapping of a new currency for a speculative bubble (or vice versa) you are likely to make a serious error in investment choices.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.

Not sure what you are referring to here exactly, clarify if you could.

I could, but I can't be bothered. I'll leave it as an exercise for the interested reader.

humbug

whatever?
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.

Not sure what you are referring to here exactly, clarify if you could.

I could, but I can't be bothered. I'll leave it as an exercise for the interested reader.

humbug
legendary
Activity: 1708
Merit: 1010
Such a proposal would be subject to manipulation, which disqualifies it for consideration.  However, if you insist that your idea is better, start your own blockchain and change the name of your currency.  We will let the market decide.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.

Not sure what you are referring to here exactly, clarify if you could.

I could, but I can't be bothered. I'll leave it as an exercise for the interested reader.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.

Not sure what you are referring to here exactly, clarify if you could.
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo
The main reason bitcoin is unstable I think is from what I can see the exchanges don't reflect any kind of reality. Seems like everyone, myself included, is just riding a speculative bubble trying to get rich quick. You need to expand the market to actually buy useful goods with it. Trying to be a central banker and control the supply doesn't change those facts. I think the market would still be very volatile.  Also, with Bitcoin exchanges when compared to tradional financial exchanges, how many are invested long-term?

What reality did you have in mind for the exchanges exactly?

... noone "needs" to DO anything ... people are using bitcoin for whatever they see fit and the price reflects that.

Confusing an historically anomalous monetisation event for a speculative bubble could be dangerous for your financial well-being.
newbie
Activity: 56
Merit: 0
The main reason bitcoin is unstable I think is from what I can see the exchanges don't reflect any kind of reality. Seems like everyone, myself included, is just riding a speculative bubble trying to get rich quick. You need to expand the market to actually buy useful goods with it. Trying to be a central banker and control the supply doesn't change those facts. I think the market would still be very volatile.  Also, with Bitcoin exchanges when compared to tradional financial exchanges, how many are invested long-term?
legendary
Activity: 3920
Merit: 2349
Eadem mutata resurgo

Bitcoin is getting more and more stable all the time ... just another non-problem.

Wider adoption will introduce more stability will introduce wider adoption will ....

(see chodpaba time series analysis, the waves are getting broader and longer with each cycle => percentage-wise the volatility will decrease)
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
Quote
Hyper inflation is only a serious risk for currencies that can have their supply arbitrarily expanded. This is not the case for bitcoin.


Money supply is not only influenced by the nominal supply, the real supply has a lot to do with the velocity of money. Do you not believe in the Quantity theory of money?

The way I'm defining it, money supply is nominal supply. I'm using the terms synonymously. Inflation is not nominal supply, but it is influenced by it.

As for velocity, that is just one contributor to inflation. Nominal price is determined by the formula: P= MV/Y, with M representing money supply, V representing money velocity, and Y the GDP.

Velocity accelerates when money supply starts increasing rapidly and/or unexpectedly and people lose their trust in a currency as a store of value. This is very unlikely to be a problem for a currency with a supply that is guaranteed to be fixed over its lifetime.

Quote
The Great Depression was due to FDR and Hoover preventing wages from decreasing in nominal terms to adjust to the decrease in the money supply, which led to artificially high wages, but high unemployment.


I agree that those were some of the causes, but none the less there was a high degree of deflation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

In an unobstructed market, the market adjusts to the deflation quickly, and people return to being productive and contributing to economic growth. That is what happened after the 1920 crash, and what was prevented from happening after the 1929 crash.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 0
Why only have the advantages of anonymity and decentralization, when we can add stability to the list, without any disadvantages as far as I can see?

What is your definition of stability?  1% intra-day moves? 1% intra-weekly?

Volatility/stability is meant to reflect shifting sentiment.

All I am saying is we could have more stability, how much exactly would only be a guess.
Volatility/stability DOES reflect shifting sentiment. What I am saying is simply that we can control the supply side.

an emergency fee of transactions (in percentage, calculated by severity) could be imposed and destroyed, which would stop the hyper inflation very quickly and effectively.

No, that wouldn't. It would reduce the number of coins out there, but it would reduce the value of each one even more since it would become nearly useless for its only purpose, spending.

You might actually be right about that. Scratch that then, it is not really important anyway (since that emergency scenario will probably never happen).

Also here's the full quote:
Under something approaching hyper inflation over a longer period (will hopefully never happen) to save the future of the bitcoin, an emergency fee of transactions (in percentage, calculated by severity) could be imposed and destroyed, which would stop the hyper inflation very quickly and effectively.

Also it seems that no one really likes this type of idea, so never mind (although I think the most important part of my arguments are still solid).
sr. member
Activity: 330
Merit: 397
an emergency fee of transactions (in percentage, calculated by severity) could be imposed and destroyed, which would stop the hyper inflation very quickly and effectively.

No, that wouldn't. It would reduce the number of coins out there, but it would reduce the value of each one even more since it would become nearly useless for its only purpose, spending.
sr. member
Activity: 476
Merit: 250
Why only have the advantages of anonymity and decentralization, when we can add stability to the list, without any disadvantages as far as I can see?

What is your definition of stability?  1% intra-day moves? 1% intra-weekly?

Volatility/stability is meant to reflect shifting sentiment.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 0
As I said bitcoin days destroyed would have to be a part of the function. So that transactions of money that just been transacted recently would weigh a lot less. Only when the last transaction of the money was older than some barrier would the transaction weigh in 100% on the total velocity. The time barrier could be set to something like 3 hours, but it would be better to set it dynamically based on the last total velocity. I know the number would not be completely precise, but I think it would still be more so than the velocity when calculated in the real world.

Also a single dude cheating would mean less and less, as more and more people get a hold of money.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
I know this is a problem. That is why I said bitcoin days destroyed should factor in (quickly transferring the same money will not destroy much bitcoin days). I think this problem can be fixed.

Im all eyes and actually curious. Tell us how this can be solved.
newbie
Activity: 29
Merit: 0
Quote
Everybody knows that hyper inflation is a huge problem. After experiencing serious hyper inflation, Zimbabwe disbanded their currency in 2009 and is now relying on foreign currencies.

Hyper inflation is only a serious risk for currencies that can have their supply arbitrarily expanded. This is not the case for bitcoin.

Money supply is not only influenced by the nominal supply, the real supply has a lot to do with the velocity of money. Do you not believe in the Quantity theory of money?

Quote
I don't know any examples of hyper deflation (because it is very easy to combat, you simply create money). But deflation led to people not investing or lending out money during the great depression, because they would rather keep their money which yielded a better and safer return.

The Great Depression was due to FDR and Hoover preventing wages from decreasing in nominal terms to adjust to the decrease in the money supply, which led to artificially high wages, but high unemployment.

I agree that those were some of the causes, but none the less there was a high degree of deflation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Great_Depression

A horrible idea. Money transfered between accounts does not mean that people is spending money. Miners that want more money created would just transfer money between their accounts so more money is created and they can get some. And there is no way to change this without radically changing Bitcoin and loosing some of its basic characteristics.

I know this is a problem. That is why I said bitcoin days destroyed should factor in (quickly transferring the same money will not destroy much bitcoin days). I think this problem can be fixed.

Also more people will start to speculate in the bitcoin, with a more regulated economy this would be a good thing. This would mean that people would buy if they think the price is too low and sell when they think it is too high, thus softening otherwise steep jumps or plunges and create a more stable merchant friendly bitcoin. But speculators can also have a very bad effect on not regulated small markets as I will describe later.

A regulated market means a market rigged in favour of the bit players (see Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc...). I much rather deal with stupid kids trying to play the free market (and most of them loosing at it) than knowing that the system is completely rigged in favour of a few by regulations.

Just remember how a Chicago trader approached the SEC several times warning the regulators about Madoff. The SEC did 3 investigations on Madoff and decided not to act. Madoff was very well connected. And this is not an exception, its the norm. For example, recently a judge retiring from the CFTC, the commodity regulators, admitted that they had been covering market manipulations. His own words:

"There are two administrative law judges at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission: myself and the Honorable Bruce Levine. On Judge Levine's first week on the job, nearly twenty years ago, he came into my office and stated that he had promised Wendy Gramm, then Chairwoman of the Commission, that we would never rule in a complainant's favor. A review of his rulings will confirm that he has fulfilled his vow. Judge Levine, in the cynical guise of enforcing the rules, forces pro se complaints to run a hostile procedural gauntlet until they lose hope, and either withdraw their complaint or settle for a pittance, regardless of the merits of the case"

See how regulations and regulators work? They only serve the big players. Its not something you want in Bitcoin, unless you are a cheater and want to make use of them.

I agree with you to some extend, but when I used the word "regulting", I simply meant to say "lets change the rules a bit". There will be NO regulator. NO central authority. Only different set of rules. The hashing power of the combined network will still be the only "authority", the only difference is that the rule set will be different.

Thanks for your comments though, I hope we can get a discussion going about this.
legendary
Activity: 1148
Merit: 1001
Radix-The Decentralized Finance Protocol
A horrible idea. Money transfered between accounts does not mean that people is spending money. Miners that want more money created would just transfer money between their accounts so more money is created and they can get some. And there is no way to change this without radically changing Bitcoin and loosing some of its basic characteristics.

And then its also a bad idea for the economics behid it.

Also more people will start to speculate in the bitcoin, with a more regulated economy this would be a good thing. This would mean that people would buy if they think the price is too low and sell when they think it is too high, thus softening otherwise steep jumps or plunges and create a more stable merchant friendly bitcoin. But speculators can also have a very bad effect on not regulated small markets as I will describe later.

A regulated market means a market rigged in favour of the bit players (see Goldman Sachs, JP Morgan, etc...). I much rather deal with stupid kids trying to play the free market (and most of them loosing at it) than knowing that the system is completely rigged in favour of a few by regulations.

Just remember how a Chicago trader approached the SEC several times warning the regulators about Madoff. The SEC did 3 investigations on Madoff and decided not to act. Madoff was very well connected. And this is not an exception, its the norm. For example, recently a judge retiring from the CFTC, the commodity regulators, admitted that they had been covering market manipulations. His own words:

"There are two administrative law judges at the Commodity Futures Trading Commission: myself and the Honorable Bruce Levine. On Judge Levine's first week on the job, nearly twenty years ago, he came into my office and stated that he had promised Wendy Gramm, then Chairwoman of the Commission, that we would never rule in a complainant's favor. A review of his rulings will confirm that he has fulfilled his vow. Judge Levine, in the cynical guise of enforcing the rules, forces pro se complaints to run a hostile procedural gauntlet until they lose hope, and either withdraw their complaint or settle for a pittance, regardless of the merits of the case"

See how regulations and regulators work? They only serve the big players. Its not something you want in Bitcoin, unless you are a cheater and want to make use of them.
hero member
Activity: 772
Merit: 501
Quote
Everybody knows that hyper inflation is a huge problem. After experiencing serious hyper inflation, Zimbabwe disbanded their currency in 2009 and is now relying on foreign currencies.

Hyper inflation is only a serious risk for currencies that can have their supply arbitrarily expanded. This is not the case for bitcoin.

Quote
I don't know any examples of hyper deflation (because it is very easy to combat, you simply create money). But deflation led to people not investing or lending out money during the great depression, because they would rather keep their money which yielded a better and safer return.

The Great Depression was due to FDR and Hoover preventing wages from decreasing in nominal terms to adjust to the decrease in the money supply, which led to artificially high wages, but high unemployment.

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