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Topic: [PROPOSAL] - lock the apparent Mt. Gox coins for now - page 2. (Read 4956 times)

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
If they choose not to carry transactions involved in such a large criminal activity, that would strike me as reasonable
the ability to perform such a lock under extreme circumstances can be considered a strength of Bitcoin.
I would argue it is using available information and the capabilities of new crypto-currencies in a freedom supporting way.
the community can pull together for the sake of justice?
a majority of the hashing power would support it.
a bit over 50% of the hashing power, should suffice
don't think there is anything wrong with miners deciding they don't want to support what may be a massive fraud or theft.
they don't wish to have their mining power used to support a massive fraud or theft.
Deciding to drop valid blocks ... has a far greater ethical imperative
miners would choose to support what is just, that is all, and choosing not to have their own effort mining used to support a massive fraud or theft.
following the majority of the other miners.
the people controlling 51% of the hashing power would have to determine which independent group had sufficient validity
miners, those controlling more than 51% of the hashing power, to refuse to let their resources be used to support a large scale fraud or theft.
I've actually read comments of at least a few miners that might be in favor of such an idea, because they don't want their resources being used to commit a large fraud or theft.
don't pay much attention to arguments from authority
It would just require agreement of 51% of the mining power.

Clearly you've laid out a convincing argument.  I'm sure you have mining pools contacting you already asking to be involved in this effort.  We have to hurry.  The longer we wait the more time the thieves will have to hide their trail and disperse the stolen bit coins throughout the economy.  Please get me the required signed statement as soon as possible.

Do you have any suggestions on how much "taint" is sufficient to authorize a "lock"?  Will the output have to be proven to be 100% entirely from the MtGox theft?  Maybe anything more than 90% tainted should be locked?  Really since we are using 50% of the hashing power to enforce the rules, perhaps we should consider anything more than 50% tainted should be locked.  Come to think of it, given the "ethical imperative" and the "massive fraud or theft", I suppose the best thing to do is consider anything more than 0.1% tainted to be lockable.  It should be acceptable to temporarily lock valid bitcoins to protect the community from assisting the thief.

Since anyone with any tainted bitcoins at all is a potential thief, it might be a good idea to lock all their bitcoins, and not just the tainted outputs.  Therefore, if any address has even a single output that is at least 0.1% tainted, we should probably lock all the unspent outputs that are currently associated with that address.

Furthermore, we shouldn't be letting a thief spend any other bitcoins that they control (since we may need to seize these in the future to compensate the victims).  Therefore, any address that ever had any of its outputs used as inputs in a transaction with an address that is being locked should also be locked.

We need to get a list of addresses from MtGox as soon as possible.  In the meantime, please present any reasonably reliable list that you've found.

Barring that, we need to quickly establish the set of specific criteria that an address will have to meet to be locked.

Again, time is our enemy on this.  Please contact some of the many miners that obviously would be interested in this.  We need to pressure at least one mining pool to go along with it if you don't already have buy-in from the operator of the mining pool.

If there aren't any major mining pool operators that understand the importance of this, perhaps you can organize a boycott?  If you can get enough miners to agree to withhold their hashing equipment from the pool until the pool succumbs to the community pressure, then we may be able to change their minds.

Anxiously waiting for a pool operator to agree to the plan...
legendary
Activity: 2156
Merit: 1393
You lead and I'll watch you walk away.
I've had a change of heart.

I think there's only one way some people will learn this lesson.  Therefore, I'm willing to put my belief to the test.

If you can get me digitally signed statement from the operator of even one of the largest pools:

  • GHash.IO
  • Eligius
  • BTC Guild
  • Discus Fish
  • BitMinter
  • Slush

stating that they agree with your concept and will implement it, then I'll personally fork the github repository and create the necessary bitcoind and bitcoin-qt software to implement the address ignoring.

Of course, along with the changes, I'll also be widely advertising to everyone the pools willingness to go along with the plan.  It will be very interesting to see how many miners will abandon the pool.

Let me know when any of the listed pools accept your idea.  Until then, any discussion is an exercise in futility (you aren't going to get 50%+ without getting at least 2 of these pools).



You're wasting your time. Very few people here are sophisticated (old) enough to know what a gauntlet is or what throwing down a gauntlet means.
donator
Activity: 1218
Merit: 1079
Gerald Davis
I've had a change of heart.

I think there's only one way some people will learn this lesson.  Therefore, I'm willing to put my belief to the test.

If you can get me digitally signed statement from the operator of even one of the largest pools:

  • GHash.IO
  • Eligius
  • BTC Guild
  • Discus Fish
  • BitMinter
  • Slush

stating that they agree with your concept and will implement it, then I'll personally fork the github repository and create the necessary bitcoind and bitcoin-qt software to implement the address ignoring.

Of course, along with the changes, I'll also be widely advertising to everyone the pools willingness to go along with the plan.  It will be very interesting to see how many miners will abandon the pool.

Let me know when any of the listed pools accept your idea.  Until then, any discussion is an exercise in futility (you aren't going to get 50%+ without getting at least 2 of these pools).

legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
I've had a change of heart.

I think there's only one way some people will learn this lesson.  Therefore, I'm willing to put my belief to the test.

If you can get me digitally signed statement from the operator of even one of the largest pools:

  • GHash.IO
  • Eligius
  • BTC Guild
  • Discus Fish
  • BitMinter
  • Slush

stating that they agree with your concept and will implement it, then I'll personally fork the github repository and create the necessary bitcoind and bitcoin-qt software to implement the address ignoring.

Of course, along with the changes, I'll also be widely advertising to everyone the pools willingness to go along with the plan.  It will be very interesting to see how many miners will abandon the pool.

Let me know when any of the listed pools accept your idea.  Until then, any discussion is an exercise in futility (you aren't going to get 50%+ without getting at least 2 of these pools).
+1000
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
I've had a change of heart.

I think there's only one way some people will learn this lesson.  Therefore, I'm willing to put my belief to the test.

If you can get me a digitally signed statement from the operator of even one of the largest pools:

  • GHash.IO
  • Eligius
  • BTC Guild
  • Discus Fish
  • BitMinter
  • Slush

stating that they agree with your concept and will implement it, then I'll personally fork the github repository and create the necessary bitcoind and bitcoin-qt software to implement the address ignoring.

Of course, along with the changes, I'll also be widely advertising to everyone the pools willingness to go along with the plan.  It will be very interesting to see how many miners will abandon the pool.

Let me know when any of the listed pools accept your idea.  Until then, any discussion is an exercise in futility (you aren't going to get 50%+ without getting at least 2 of these pools).
hero member
Activity: 1036
Merit: 500
I understand people's reluctance

Yes, I am reluctant to completely destroy Bitcoin and reduce its value to zero.

If you dont understand why this would happen, you actually dont "grok" the core concept of a decentralized peer-to-peer cryptocurrency.

You recognize Bitcoins value. But clearly you dont understand that what gives it such incredible value is directly at odds with what you are suggesting.
newbie
Activity: 28
Merit: 0
QFT

You do understand you will never convince miners to erase 3,000 blocks of the blockchain however if you did, then Bitcoin is done.   Remember over those 3,000 blocks, newly mined coins have been involved in transactions and this action would double spend all of those.  The coins originally minted would never exist and thus the coins spent wouldn't.  Merchants, other users, exchanges would all see the downstream transactions (which have 6 ro 3,000+ confirmations) suddenly go unconfirmed and invalid.

While this in theory could be done at any time it is generally accepted to be impossible.  If miners by decree can double spend transaction not 1 or 2 confirmations into the blockchain but 3,000 blocks deep then no receiver can ever be sure that the transaction is irreversible.  There is a certain level of faith in all currencies that create the perception of value, and Bitcoin is no exception.  Among those faiths, Bitcoin users believe that while it is possible in theory to 51% the network and undo transactions thousands of blocks deep, that it would have such an economic cost that it infeasible.  All users accept this faith or they wouldn't be using bitcoin (or would require 10,000+ confirmations before concluding the transaction).  Your proposed action (although I think it has no chance) if successful would break that faith.  Without faith in the irreversibility of transactions, there is no value or utility to Bitcoin.  Bitcoin would be dead.  I am not talking the exchange rate goes down a bit and recovers, I mean completely abandoned as a worthless experiment and development moves on to future systems which don't have the vulnerability (likely some floating checkpoint system which acts as a check to the proof of work).

How do you use a currency that at any time could simply be "undone" and erased from your wallet by the actions of a third party?  Would you use that currency?  I know I wouldn't.  I genuinely feel sorry for those who lost significant amounts of money by misplacing their trust in MtGox but this is a situation where the cure is worse than the disease.



This
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
Multiple senior people on these boards have told you this one of or possibly the worst proposal they have ever heard of for bitcoin.

I understand people's reluctance, but I've yet to hear that this would really hurt anyone other than possibly the people with the locked coins. And in those cases, there would be a procedure for unlocking.

I also understand the general concern that this would change the underlying perception of bitcoin. In other words, that the value of bitcoin for most people is derived from the fact that there is no such locking possible. Now while that certainly has been the rule to date, the question is, would such an ability to lock addresses, subject to a review procedure, increase or decrease the typical potential user's confidence?

Certainly the criminal element wouldn't like this. By and large, of course, they would usually be flying under the radar of some limit on the amount and would likely be in trouble by the time legal action is taken against them anyway, but presumably they still wouldn't like this.

But I do wonder what the effect would be for the much larger number of potential users that bitcoin is trying to expand into? Certainly the aficionados who tend to read this forum aren't representative of this group.

I've actually read comments of at least a few miners that might be in favor of such an idea, because they don't want their resources being used to commit a large fraud or theft.

I tend to be interested in the actual facts behind an issue and don't pay much attention to arguments from authority. If you don't like my discussions or posts, please go ahead and block me so you don't have to read them.

I'm a miner, and I would leave bitcoin the day such a foul scheme were enacted.

Which criminals do you think would be affected by this? The Goxxers?

Maybe. But one well known criminal groupl would seize on your proposal like a fish to water. By implementing this, you have just opened the door for asset forfeiture, which is one of the biggest scams in human history. And that particular criminal group steals between 50 and 75 percent of every honest man's income every single year, and then uses the money against us. So far, Bitcoin is resistant to this. If you implement this, We might as well throw in the towel. The governments will own all of the blockchain in less than a day.
hero member
Activity: 644
Merit: 500
Everyone talks about how bitcoin is free of all constraints, yet when a high profile event happens (this, silkroad) there are those who out forward the idea of locking certain coins out of being used in transactions.  Don't you get, if the community came together and enabled such a thing, then those dreaded courts and governments could step forward and make the same requests?

No. Once you start locking coins out of being processed, then the entire idea of bitcoin and it's commence without constraints is over.
legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 4801
Multiple senior people on these boards have told you this one of or possibly the worst proposal they have ever heard of for bitcoin.

I understand people's reluctance, but I've yet to hear that this would really hurt anyone other than possibly the people with the locked coins. And in those cases, there would be a procedure for unlocking.

I also understand the general concern that this would change the underlying perception of bitcoin. In other words, that the value of bitcoin for most people is derived from the fact that there is no such locking possible. Now while that certainly has been the rule to date, the question is, would such an ability to lock addresses, subject to a review procedure, increase or decrease the typical potential user's confidence?

Certainly the criminal element wouldn't like this. By and large, of course, they would usually be flying under the radar of some limit on the amount and would likely be in trouble by the time legal action is taken against them anyway, but presumably they still wouldn't like this.

But I do wonder what the effect would be for the much larger number of potential users that bitcoin is trying to expand into? Certainly the aficionados who tend to read this forum aren't representative of this group.

I've actually read comments of at least a few miners that might be in favor of such an idea, because they don't want their resources being used to commit a large fraud or theft.

I tend to be interested in the actual facts behind an issue and don't pay much attention to arguments from authority. If you don't like my discussions or posts, please go ahead and block me so you don't have to read them.

You are right.  If you can gather a significant majority you can fork bitcoin.  The minority will either continue without everyone else on their own fungible bitcoin or will give up and join your non-fungible system.

I say go for it.  It seems that you are one of those people that aren't capable of learning from the wisdom of others.  You prefer to just try foolish things and see what happens.  I wish you all the luck in the world.  You seem to believe that there would be significant support for such an idea, so go ahead and implement it.

Start contacting mining pools and individual miners.  Convince them to accept this new system.  Get your "trusted authority" put together and write up the rules and procedures that they will use to review lock and unlock submissions.

Either you are correct and your idea will take off, or you are wrong and you are wasting your own time.  Either way, doesn't matter to me.

To me, your system will just be another dogecoin.  I'll stay with the fungible bitcoins, and watch from a distance with interest to see what happens with your experiment.

When you're all done, stop back and let us all know how it worked out for you.
sr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 253
Make a client for users and a bitcoind for miners and pools that simply does not processes certain addresses that you are against.  Then publicize and distribute that client.  If you get 51% of the miners to follow you, you win!   It is not a whole lot of code just to ignore the addresses either.   Then when someone tries to move those coins, the network will fork.  If you have enough on your side the network will re-organize every time a block is mined with those coins and revert back to your fork without those coins moving. 

You're correct. It would just require agreement of 51% of the mining power.
sr. member
Activity: 332
Merit: 253
Multiple senior people on these boards have told you this one of or possibly the worst proposal they have ever heard of for bitcoin.

I understand people's reluctance, but I've yet to hear that this would really hurt anyone other than possibly the people with the locked coins. And in those cases, there would be a procedure for unlocking.

I also understand the general concern that this would change the underlying perception of bitcoin. In other words, that the value of bitcoin for most people is derived from the fact that there is no such locking possible. Now while that certainly has been the rule to date, the question is, would such an ability to lock addresses, subject to a review procedure, increase or decrease the typical potential user's confidence?

Certainly the criminal element wouldn't like this. By and large, of course, they would usually be flying under the radar of some limit on the amount and would likely be in trouble by the time legal action is taken against them anyway, but presumably they still wouldn't like this.

But I do wonder what the effect would be for the much larger number of potential users that bitcoin is trying to expand into? Certainly the aficionados who tend to read this forum aren't representative of this group.

I've actually read comments of at least a few miners that might be in favor of such an idea, because they don't want their resources being used to commit a large fraud or theft.

I tend to be interested in the actual facts behind an issue and don't pay much attention to arguments from authority. If you don't like my discussions or posts, please go ahead and block me so you don't have to read them.
legendary
Activity: 1652
Merit: 1016
Another one of these silly threads started because someone doesn't understand why bitcoin has any value in the first place.
legendary
Activity: 1372
Merit: 1022
Anarchy is not chaos.
It seems I can copy and paste word-for-word my response in another thread here:


This is the kind of fundamental misunderstanding that needs to be corrected. 

Hats are designed to be worn on your head.  If you wear them on your foot and they don't work correctly, there isn't a fault with the way the hat is designed, there a fault with you not using it as intended.

Bitcoin is designed as peer-to-peer money.  One Sender and one Recipient.  If you leave someone else in charge of your coins, there isn't a fault with the way Bitcoin is designed, there a fault with you not using it as intended.

If someone was standing on a street corner with a glass box full of money and they said they'd look after your cash for you, and you were stupid enough to put your money in the box and find that they are not there the following day, is that a fault with the way money is designed?  Or is that a fault with you being reckless and naive?

Exchanges should never have become as popular as they are in the first place.  People just need to learn the difference between the fiat money world and the digital world.  Exchanges are not banks and you should not trust them, or anyone else, to look after your money for you.  Use it properly and you won't get burned.

Quoted for both beauty and truth.
legendary
Activity: 3948
Merit: 3191
Leave no FUD unchallenged
It seems I can copy and paste word-for-word my response in another thread here:


This is the kind of fundamental misunderstanding that needs to be corrected. 

Hats are designed to be worn on your head.  If you wear them on your foot and they don't work correctly, there isn't a fault with the way the hat is designed, there a fault with you not using it as intended.

Bitcoin is designed as peer-to-peer money.  One Sender and one Recipient.  If you leave someone else in charge of your coins, there isn't a fault with the way Bitcoin is designed, there a fault with you not using it as intended.

If someone was standing on a street corner with a glass box full of money and they said they'd look after your cash for you, and you were stupid enough to put your money in the box and find that they are not there the following day, is that a fault with the way money is designed?  Or is that a fault with you being reckless and naive?

Exchanges should never have become as popular as they are in the first place.  People just need to learn the difference between the fiat money world and the digital world.  Exchanges are not banks and you should not trust them, or anyone else, to look after your money for you.  Use it properly and you won't get burned.

member
Activity: 76
Merit: 10
Enemy of the State
Such a thing would destroy bitcoin. It should never be allowed to happen, no blocks will be erased.

this x100. there is nothing to discuss here, such a proposal goes against everything bitcoin stands for.
sr. member
Activity: 475
Merit: 255
Also, people whose addresses would be unjustly blocked by OP solution shall have no obligation to prove their innocence, provide any evidence or identification.
Violating fungibility is a bad idea. Some things in fiat world considered "ethical" and "just" (and enforced even on those who disagree with "inevitable truth of such ethic") are simply algorithmically prohibited (or complicated tremendously) by Bitcoin protocol. This is not a bug, but it is a feature of Bitcoin and one of the reasons of its success.
legendary
Activity: 2394
Merit: 1216
The revolution will be digital
Given the possible recent leak of the Mt. Gox source code and database, what would the core developers and mining community think of locking the apparent large wallet balances belonging to Mt. Gox, Mark Karpeles, and Jeb McCaleb by changing the protocol for now?

The idea would not be to accept any transactions spending these bitcoin until the Mt. Gox bankruptcy case is sorted out. A committee, possibly appointed by the Bitcoin Foundation, could verify proper ownership before the coins are cleared for spending and a change back is made.

This would be a bit different than the idea of taking the coins permanently, or permanently invalidating them. The intention here would be to simply assist the legal process.

I know this is not something which can be done for every theft, etc., but we are talking about 6% of all bitcoin mined to date, which are presently tangled up in a real legal mess.

I suppose a general principle to govern this could be that when an entity controlling greater than some number of fraction of bitcoin is subject to legal action, such as a bankruptcy, charges of fraud, lawsuits, etc., that coins may be locked pending the outcome of litigation.

If this idea is accepted, I'll do my best to warn people to stay away from a centralized system like Bitcoin. When a newbie's coin get hacked, u give your big words that how noob they are. And now u r Goxed and crying like a baby. Be matured.
sr. member
Activity: 321
Merit: 250
Hey OP:

Multiple senior people on these boards have told you this one of or possibly the worst proposal they have ever heard of for bitcoin.

Not just one person.  Several.

And yet still you persist in arguing for it.

If it were me, and I had submitted such a bad idea and then been repeatedly called out on it, I would shut up, have a good think, and study up a good deal more before making any further boneheaded proposals.

In other words, why don't you shut the hell up before you make more of an ass of yourself.

have a nice day.
legendary
Activity: 1918
Merit: 1570
Bitcoin: An Idea Worth Spending
Given the possible recent leak of the Mt. Gox source code and database, what would the core developers and mining community think of locking the apparent large wallet balances belonging to Mt. Gox, Mark Karpeles, and Jeb McCaleb by changing the protocol for now?

The idea would not be to accept any transactions spending these bitcoin until the Mt. Gox bankruptcy case is sorted out. A committee, possibly appointed by the Bitcoin Foundation, could verify proper ownership before the coins are cleared for spending and a change back is made.

This would be a bit different than the idea of taking the coins permanently, or permanently invalidating them. The intention here would be to simply assist the legal process.

I know this is not something which can be done for every theft, etc., but we are talking about 6% of all bitcoin mined to date, which are presently tangled up in a real legal mess.

I suppose a general principle to govern this could be that when an entity controlling greater than some number of fraction of bitcoin is subject to legal action, such as a bankruptcy, charges of fraud, lawsuits, etc., that coins may be locked pending the outcome of litigation.

Bad idea! (with apologies)
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