The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
It's true. We will never know that your enemy in the match might be one of the site's team. In my point of view, player vs player game is enjoyable since your opponent is another player same as you but games like this have a catch as you have said. If it is a fake player then it's in favor of the site itself.
Topic: Provable fairness in Player vs Player (Be Cautious) (Read 315 times)
Thanks for the tip op. Majority of these PvP gambling sites are usually poker sites, but most of the players were bots and I was aware of that though I thought that the provably fair mechanism used by the site eased my worries. Looks like I was wrong.
These kinds of posts are very helpful yet most likely go unnoticed by beginners or newbies since they basically don't understand it. They may try to read it, but it is way too difficult to understand without the prior knowledge of some of the technicalities behind the logic.
Agreed. I had to read the solution proposed by op twice to fully understand it and I graduated with a CS degree. These threads definitely deserve more attention.
Here is solution.
User Satoshi generates random string (secret #1).
User Satoshi creates a game and sends hash of secret #1.
User Nakamoto generates random string (secret #2).
User Nakamoto joins the game and sends hash of secret #2.
Both players receives opponent's hash and sends its secrets.
Server calculates winner based on both secrets.
A player who has not sended his secret loses.
Also it may make sense to add an additional secret and hash from the server.
User Satoshi generates random string (secret #1).
User Satoshi creates a game and sends hash of secret #1.
User Nakamoto generates random string (secret #2).
User Nakamoto joins the game and sends hash of secret #2.
Both players receives opponent's hash and sends its secrets.
Server calculates winner based on both secrets.
A player who has not sended his secret loses.
Also it may make sense to add an additional secret and hash from the server.
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
It's true. We will never know that your enemy in the match might be one of the site's team. In my point of view, player vs player game is enjoyable since your opponent is another player same as you but games like this have a catch as you have said. If it is a fake player then it's in favor of the site itself. These kinds of posts are very helpful yet most likely go unnoticed by beginners or newbies since they basically don't understand it.
a small bump.This is a must read thread for all gamblers but as you said but it doesn't get enough attention.
Some useless threads get hundreds of views and replies which make me wonder if gamblers really care about where they spend their money.
Especially that PvP games are now becoming popular in the gambling business. More and more sites are now offering this kind of game so the players should know beforehand what's in store for them for this type of gambling. We always look for provable fairness system but we need to know how this really works in PvP system. Spare some time what the OP has presented and assess on your own whenever you encounter a PvP game site. And why this type of game is not attracting many players in the long run?
These kinds of posts are very helpful yet most likely go unnoticed by beginners or newbies since they basically don't understand it.
a small bump.This is a must read thread for all gamblers but as you said but it doesn't get enough attention.
Some useless threads get hundreds of views and replies which make me wonder if gamblers really care about where they spend their money.
The problem is that most players aren't smart enough to detect when there is a flaw in the provably fair schemes or algorithms.
Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
That's because most gamblers don't see the need to understand the algorithms and logic behind a certain process. And I don't blame them. In the first place, gambling was supposed to be a way to earn profit while having fun or releasing stress every now and then after all. Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
It's also very difficult to prove the effectiveness of certain gambling sites since most users don't even bother researching about them and even if they do, at times, they at times get the wrong information due to spammers spreading information that a scam site is a legit one.
These kinds of posts are very helpful yet most likely go unnoticed by beginners or newbies since they basically don't understand it. They may try to read it, but it is way too difficult to understand without the prior knowledge of some of the technicalities behind the logic.
The problem is that most players aren't smart enough to detect when there is a flaw in the provably fair schemes or algorithms.
Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
I myself cannot confirm detail by detail whether a gambling site claiming to be provably fair is indeed provably fair. Although a lot of crypto casinos such as Bitsler, Bitdice, Cryptogames, Primedice, and many more provide verifiers for each user to know whether each and every roll result is truly fair, how many of us actually care to use these verifiers? And to those who are interested enough to use them and want to confirm provable fairness themselves, how many of them actually understands how all of it works?
The problem is that most players aren't smart enough to detect when there is a flaw in the provably fair schemes or algorithms.
Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
Most of them will be satisfied by reading the magic words "Provably Fair Game" and a page full of BS like hash, id, secret...
I am persuaded that 90% of users will not realize that the example you posted isn't fair.
Introduction :
-snip
That's a bold statement Sir. But if you know gambling platforms cheating users you have to name them here, otherwise you're a kind of accomplice. Why don't you give any name here? I don't understand what you're afraid of? It would be more easy to understand what you're talking about precisely -snip
But if I understand correctly your explanations another solution could be to hash a listing of the numbers of the next winners and to show it after several games.
For example :
Game 1 : First player
Game 2 : Second player
Game 3 : no winner
...
Thanks for sharing. Yeah it's a reason to be cautious. I think if the game starts after both the parties have joined or as in the hash might be changed with the control of either of the players choice, that would be beneficial. But it will be really complicated in that sense as well.
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
The OP is trying to give solution for pvp based game, as long as the game is provably fair then there is no need to worry about the fake users. Even if the admin of the site pretend to be a player then it wont be a problem because once a game is provably fair then anyone wont be able to manipulate the result or knowing the result before the game starts.
Yup, exactly.
The solution we implemented is the one in our thread above, using unmined EOS blocks which has very little delay (~500MS Block time avg)
While still giving the users a few seconds to check that the block isn't mined if they want to.
Additionally after the game is over you're provided a tool to draw the winner from any previous hash and verify on jsfiddle / any third party
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
That can be countered if the other user is registered on the website and is active on the chat server or any form of discussion platform provided by the casino.
There should be an option for the user to decide whom to play with, apart from the casino deciding the opponent. This will insure that you are playing with an actual human.
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
Agreed, there is more chances for someone from the gambling house to pretend to be the player. In this case it is hard to win against the player that's been allocated by the gambling house. To keep up the reputation gained gambling houses won't get into such kind of stuffs cheating the participants and kick them with zero profiting. 
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
That can be countered if the other user is registered on the website and is active on the chat server or any form of discussion platform provided by the casino.
There should be an option for the user to decide whom to play with, apart from the casino deciding the opponent. This will insure that you are playing with an actual human.
I think that gamblers who prefer pvp games are more keen to play poker or blackjack rather than a coin flip game of luck.I personally would like a lot more to play poker against other people rather than playing coin flip against another person but that just is different tastes.
As for the solution a trusted third party software should be a good start,the casino should not know anything otherwise is not provable fair.
As for the solution a trusted third party software should be a good start,the casino should not know anything otherwise is not provable fair.
But very few people will reach to that extent of verifying it thru a trusted 3rd party software.
Many will ask how provable fairness is done to that site and how they can verify their seed and so on and so forth and stop on this step.
And in this regard, for most pvp games, I believe we always think that deep inside there is some kind of loophole going on.
And yes, maybe that is one important factor why we really can't see a successful pvp gambling website, aside from the common problem of getting players on the site.
I think that gamblers who prefer pvp games are more keen to play poker or blackjack rather than a coin flip game of luck.I personally would like a lot more to play poker against other people rather than playing coin flip against another person but that just is different tastes.
As for the solution a trusted third party software should be a good start,the casino should not know anything otherwise is not provable fair.
As for the solution a trusted third party software should be a good start,the casino should not know anything otherwise is not provable fair.
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
The OP is trying to give solution for pvp based game, as long as the game is provably fair then there is no need to worry about the fake users. Even if the admin of the site pretend to be a player then it wont be a problem because once a game is provably fair then anyone wont be able to manipulate the result or knowing the result before the game starts.
The casino generated the winner themselves, meaning in theory they could know if the game Satoshi created would be a win for whoever joined, or a loss.
The casino could also generate their own name under a different pseudonym, and create one in which is a win for themselves while still providing the hash in the beginning.
Theres no way on how to verify or detect if players are part of the house or not.We have seen several pvp gambling sites in the past but as usual they do end up dying or no players at all. Coinflip or any related or similar games doesnt really attract too much players.
The main problem in Player Vs Player online match is that you never know if the other player is the real player or it is someone from the gambling site pretending to be the player. In the latter case, if gambling site introduce a fake player, the advantage straight away goes to the online casino.
Jump to: