PSA: Get your Bitcoin off any exchange supporting "BSV" (due to insolvency risk) - page 4.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: Lucius on October 08, 2022, 05:00:21 AM

That's why a global initiative of mass abandonment of Bitcoin trading through all centralized crypto exchanges should be launched

As much as I would love to see the end of centralized exchanges, when we can't even convince the majority of people to stop using them when it is clearly in their own best interests (security of their coins and avoidance of losing coins via scams/hacks/bankruptcies/insolvencies/bad loans/seizures/account freezes, security of their data and avoidance of identity theft or personal information otherwise being shared/sold/hacked/leaked, censorship, high fees), then we are unlikely to be able to convince them on ideological reasons such as them being anti-bitcoin. Won't stop me from trying though. Wink

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 08, 2022, 05:22:01 AM

I'm curious to know what's illegal in doing what I said. Their license ambiguously describes that the blockchain that is forked must contain that hash in that block. Does this mean that if I create another chain, named "BSOV (Bitcoin Satoshi's Original Vision)", let it have that hash in that block, and state that I'm the real Satoshi with no evidence whatsoever, just as Wright, will I get sued?

Whatever you create will not contain the "longest persistent chain of blocks accepted by this Software" ("this Software" being CSW's BSV software). Therefore, you will have modified the code in such a way that it is no longer being used on the BSV blockchain, and therefore CSW would claim that you are in breach of this license and likely try to sue you for it. I mean, obviously the license is complete nonsense since the code he is trying to license was not written by him and was instead plagiarized/stolen from Satoshi and other real bitcoin devs, but that wouldn't stop him from trying I'm sure.

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 08, 2022, 04:50:57 AM

In other words, it says that BSV is whatever chain they say it is, regardless of network consensus, and so if you refuse to follow their fork to implement this stupid code, then they will take legal action against you.

I'm curious to know what's illegal in doing what I said. Their license ambiguously describes that the blockchain that is forked must contain that hash in that block. Does this mean that if I create another chain, named "BSOV (Bitcoin Satoshi's Original Vision)", let it have that hash in that block, and state that I'm the real Satoshi with no evidence whatsoever, just as Wright, will I get sued?

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Quote from: gmaxwell on October 07, 2022, 11:50:15 AM

Most exchanges have a serious conflict of interest against bitcoin: https://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=607
Some, however, are worse than others. Supporting BSV is pretty bad and at least most of the big ones don't do that.

That's why a global initiative of mass abandonment of Bitcoin trading through all centralized crypto exchanges should be launched, so let all their owners face reality and find some other way to attract people to trade with shitcoins. It's far from happening (at least not in the near future), but it would be nice to see people start using Bitcoin the way it's only right, keeping it in non-custody wallets and trading through DEX.

Good article, thanks for sharing.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 08, 2022, 04:42:22 AM

Ok. But, what the fuck does that mean?

It means you can only modify the software in such a way that it is still compatible with BSV, and then it defines BSV as the chain which forked at block 556,767 and is accepted by the software put forward by Bitcoin Association. In other words, it says that BSV is whatever chain they say it is, regardless of network consensus, and so if you refuse to follow their fork to implement this stupid code, then they will take legal action against you.

BlackHatCoiner

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Farewell, Leo

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 07, 2022, 04:14:35 PM

He would no doubt advance sham litigation accusing you of running code which you didn't have the rights to or accusing you of attacking his business.

I quickly ran to Bitcoin SV's LICENCE in Github, and you won't believe it! Grin

Quote

Open BSV License version 4

Horseshit seems from the start. Have you ever heard of the Open BSV License? Me neither. Let's see.

Quote

Permission is hereby granted, free of charge, to any person obtaining a copy of this software and associated documentation files (the "Software"), to deal in the Software without restriction, including without limitation the rights to use, copy, modify, merge, publish, distribute, sublicense, and/or sell copies of the Software, and to permit persons to whom the Software is furnished to do so

Sounds fair.

Quote

subject to the following conditions:

O-oh.

Quote

2 - The Software, and any software that is derived from the Software or parts thereof, can only be used on the Bitcoin SV blockchains.

Ok. But, what the fuck does that mean?

Quote

The Bitcoin SV blockchains are defined, for purposes of this license, as the Bitcoin blockchain containing block height #556767 with the hash "000000000000000001d956714215d96ffc00e0afda4cd0a96c96f8d802b1662b"

Let me repeat: What the fuck does that mean? That software can be altered with the condition that block 556,767 has a hash of "000000000000000001d956714215d96ffc00e0afda4cd0a96c96f8d802b1662b"? Or perhaps that it just contains the hashed message "000000000000000001d956714215d96ffc00e0afda4cd0a96c96f8d802b1662b", in a transaction for example? Or that it's just an empty block with this message in the header?

Quote

and that contains the longest persistent chain of blocks accepted by this Software and which are valid under the rules set forth in the Bitcoin white paper (S. Nakamoto, Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System, posted online October 2008) and the latest version of this Software available in this repository or another repository designated by Bitcoin Association

The longest persistent chain of blocks, in comparison with what?

Sounds exactly like Satoshi's vision. Censorship resistant unless you decide to fork yourself off the network.

Quote

Version 0.1.1 of the Bitcoin SV software, and prior versions of software upon which it was based,were licensed under the MIT License, which is included below.

But, MIT seemed like a bad choice, because it gives more freedom than the users deserve. Roll Eyes

Just lol.

Pmalek

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There are a few other exchanges that could be added in the OP:
AscendEX, ProBit Global, MEXC, WhiteBIT, Bitvavo, BitMart, and others.

Quote from: BlackHatCoiner on October 06, 2022, 01:59:46 PM

Why isn't Coinbase in this list?

The list in OP shows exchanges that have listed BSV on their platforms. According to the data I see on CoinMarketCap, Coinbase hasn't done that. Although you mentioned other good reasons for not using Coinbase, this is a somewhat different matter.

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: n0nce on October 07, 2022, 04:22:36 PM

Do you know what's funny about this? Cheesy

We could literally find 20 people in this forum who are willing to buy 7TB of HDD space to spin up BSV nodes and vote against Craig's 9 nodes. It would be great, just showing that it is this easy to attack a not properly decentralized blockchain.

Yeah, but either you run this new modified code which allows him to help himself to any BSV he likes, or you continue to run the current code at which point him, Ayre, CoinGeek, and the rest of the BSV scammers call you a fork and threaten you with lawsuits. Who knows which chain the exchanges would follow in such a scenario.

Quote from: goldkingcoiner on October 07, 2022, 06:55:33 PM

Also would he be basically committing theft, from a legal standpoint?

He's already committed everything from identity theft to fraud to tax evasion. A few charges of theft won't bother him. He's also banking on the fact that Satoshi is not going to return, and so will not file charges of theft for the coins CSW is stealing. (Like Satoshi would even care about his BSV tokens being stolen in the first place.)

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Quote from: n0nce on October 07, 2022, 04:22:36 PM

Do you know what's funny about this? Cheesy

We could literally find 20 people in this forum who are willing to buy 7TB of HDD space to spin up BSV nodes and vote against Craig's 9 nodes. It would be great, just showing that it is this easy to attack a not properly decentralized blockchain.

Technically you only need the chainstate to verify blocks which is a lot smaller than that, that is what pruning does anyways (with the addition of storing only a handful of blocks). There may even be some ways to pretend to be a full node Wink

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 07, 2022, 04:14:35 PM

~snip

A perfect chance to neutralize BSV by having it delisted?

Sounds to me that we should try to alert the exchanges to the upcoming danger. If I were running an exchange, I would definitely want to hear about this to hedge my risks and get away from BSV in case shit hits the fan. Not that I am a friend to exchanges nor do I believe the very concept of temporary centralization of your wallet in third party hands will have a future with Bitcoin.

The community could prevent much damage just by spreading fake-toshis plans, so that we can successfully counter them. We might even get BSV delisted everywhere. What a nice thought that is, wouldn't you say?

Also would he be basically committing theft, from a legal standpoint?

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Quote from: NotATether on October 06, 2022, 09:48:51 AM

I'm actually thinking about using this as a list of exchanges to avoid (as in, high risk - do not trade on ever).

I already have a small list of exchanges if I ever need to quickly withdraw or cash out something:

- Binance (this will be primary)
- One or more of Gemini, FTX, or Kraken as an immediate backup.

Coinbase is off of this list because they are too overzealous in chattering about any event from depositing/withdrawing crypto to failing KYC, to the Feds.

To be honest, for 'quickly withdraw or cash out', I can tell you that the Bisq order book for me usually has enough offers that I can just take one and get my fiat money (or BTC) within a few hours.
If you want even faster, I found Robosats to be quite fast as well, getting my own offers taken within 1-2 hours.

I don't (and don't recommend to) rely on centralized exchanges anymore; they almost all want KYC and almost all can freeze / steal your money at any time. Too risky.

Quote from: LFC_Bitcoin on October 06, 2022, 02:45:04 PM

I’m surprised that shitcoin is still functioning, weird that Ayre & Wright are still towing the party line. You would have thought they’d have just sold everything & given up by now. Satoshi’s Vision, the real bitcoin? Don’t make me laugh.

If you’re looking for a trustworthy exchange then I highly recommend Kraken. It’s my go to exchange, never had any issues. Obviously though as gmaxwell said in the OP, you shouldn’t be leaving any amount of bitcoin on an exchange long term.

What's nice about Kraken is that you can even withdraw through Lightning! I understand that people in some parts of the world can only afford to buy very small quantities of Bitcoin; and withdrawing from an exchange on-chain would cost them almost all they've got. Meanwhile Lightning withdrawals are completely free, as far as I know.

Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 07, 2022, 02:23:30 AM

Quote from: dkbit98 on October 06, 2022, 02:53:05 PM

Fun fact, BSV network is totally unsustainable, and like Jameson Lopp recently posted on twitter, it exceeded 7 TB, adding 4 GB per day, priced at ~$50 per gigabyte in transaction fees Cheesy

It's probably worth pointing out that this is completely intentional. As Greg has pointed out above, CSW's team will be releasing code which allows him to arbitrarily seize BSV. This will only work if the majority of nodes run this idiotic code. This would obviously be impossible on a decentralized network such as bitcoin, where >99.9% of nodes would simply refuse to run such code. But since they've deliberately made it so difficult to run a BSV node (there are currently a grand total of 9 nodes at the chain tip), it becomes much easier to get a majority of nodes to implement these changes, particularly since the majority of nodes are being running by CSW, Ayre, or another member of his team.

Do you know what's funny about this? Cheesy

We could literally find 20 people in this forum who are willing to buy 7TB of HDD space to spin up BSV nodes and vote against Craig's 9 nodes. It would be great, just showing that it is this easy to attack a not properly decentralized blockchain.

Quote from: suzanne5223 on October 07, 2022, 06:50:31 AM

In fact, the project representative on this forum once makes a statement on this forum that the project is over on their ANN thread but sadly, I look for the post for over an hour but it was taken down.

You may be able to find it on https://ninjastic.space/!
Was it this thread? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/ann-bsv-bitcoin-sv-original-satoshi-vision-4985868

If so, there is an archive here: https://ninjastic.space/topic/4985868
As well as here: https://loyce.club/archive/topics/498/4985868.html

o_e_l_e_o

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Quote from: NotATether on October 07, 2022, 05:03:31 AM

CSW can't do nothin' about it without running more nodes

He would no doubt advance sham litigation accusing you of running code which you didn't have the rights to or accusing you of attacking his business.

Quote from: goldkingcoiner on October 07, 2022, 08:15:57 AM

Justice will prevail and he will keep on being fake-toshi with nothing to show.

But this is not relevant to what is going here. He will succeed in seizing BSV which are not his, because the entire BSV chain is so completely centralized and ran only by him and his buddies. It is little more than a glorified (and horrendously bloated) spreadsheet at this point. He will succeed in seizing BSV, which will result in exchanges either losing coins or the entire chain collapsing, which will result in exchanges having to cover their losses from other funds.

gmaxwell

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Quote from: Lucius on October 07, 2022, 05:25:44 AM

CZ and similar leaders (as some call them) could have chosen never to support anything that more than evidently indicated that it would turn into a greedy enterprise of a few people with dangerous intentions - but all of them, if we are honest, never cared too much for Bitcoin, nor do they today. Even when some people like @hodlonaut find themselves in court because they told the truth, none of these leaders want to show their support, or they show it in a very strange way by conditioning donations in some kind of altcoins.

I was honestly surprised that so many CEX are still supporting a project backed by someone like Faketoshi...

Most exchanges have a serious conflict of interest against bitcoin: https://rusty.ozlabs.org/?p=607

Some, however, are worse than others. Supporting BSV is pretty bad and at least most of the big ones don't do that.

Quote from: DaveF on October 07, 2022, 08:28:09 AM

hat would imply that either their nodes are not accessible or they are relying on someone else's node for transactions.
Not good either way.

In BSV anyone but miners running a node is an unsupported and highly discouraged configuration. In their view, exchanges should be using an API offered by a miner.

Since those APIs mostly don't exist it's more likely that just many of them have firewalled off nodes-- it's a good security practice after all. Though with so few working reachable nodes the network is extremely fragile.

Also keep in mind that many obscure exchanges are whitelabeled -- so some of the exchanges on that list may be using common backend infrastructure.

It's not even unheard of for some "exchanges" to just be entirely operated out of third party hosted wallets. However bad you might imagine that ecosystem the reality is likely worse. People aren't kidding when they recommend not keeping assets on exchanges.

tryingtolearn

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NeuroticFish

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Quote from: DaveF on October 07, 2022, 08:28:09 AM

I don't begrudge the exchanges for doing it. They don't exist because they like us, the exist to make a profit so from that angle they are doing what they say they are going to do.

Clearly the exchanges do it for profit. And probably a big number of traders too.

Still, a network with only 9 nodes and the risk of getting funds seized is not something a business should spend time with if they want to be called reputable. But I guess that they don't care since if this happens BSV may also become worthless in no time, allowing the exchanges reimburse their affected users without a significant loss.

Still these exchange should not bite the hand that feeds them (mostly Bitcoin, I'd expect), hence do this (delist BSV), if not for the sake of their own (and their users') solvability, then as a gesture of courtesy.

DaveF

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 07, 2022, 02:23:30 AM

Quote from: dkbit98 on October 06, 2022, 02:53:05 PM

Fun fact, BSV network is totally unsustainable, and like Jameson Lopp recently posted on twitter, it exceeded 7 TB, adding 4 GB per day, priced at ~$50 per gigabyte in transaction fees Cheesy

It's probably worth pointing out that this is completely intentional. As Greg has pointed out above, CSW's team will be releasing code which allows him to arbitrarily seize BSV. This will only work if the majority of nodes run this idiotic code. This would obviously be impossible on a decentralized network such as bitcoin, where >99.9% of nodes would simply refuse to run such code. But since they've deliberately made it so difficult to run a BSV node (there are currently a grand total of 9 nodes at the chain tip), it becomes much easier to get a majority of nodes to implement these changes, particularly since the majority of nodes are being running by CSW, Ayre, or another member of his team.

If there are only 9 nodes at the tip how are these exchanges operating. That would imply that either their nodes are not accessible or they are relying on someone else's node for transactions.
Not good either way. However, in the end it's just a shrug to most security minded people since as we all keep saying you really should not be leaving your coins on an exchange anyway. On -> Trade -> Off.

I don't begrudge the exchanges for doing it. They don't exist because they like us, the exist to make a profit so from that angle they are doing what they say they are going to do.

-Dave

goldkingcoiner

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I agree that we should always keep our coins off exchanges as much as humanly possible but I think you might be panicking a bit too soon about that Faketoshi will get what he wants or even close to it. Justice will prevail and he will keep on being fake-toshi with nothing to show. Nobody will fall for his scam because he has nothing to provide as evidence, nothing to show that he is who he says he is. All he has is a long history of sad and pathetic ego-circle-jerk litigations which always end up him trying and failing to screw someone over to get what he wants. He's a schizo sociopath, there is no other word.

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Quote from: gmaxwell on October 05, 2022, 12:27:54 PM

Bitfinex

Are you crazy? This is a top exchange

suzanne5223

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Apart from the shady trick pulled by the BSV team lately, the project is a complete mess right from the beginning due to the dramatic entry of Craig Wright and his allies (Ver) who now turn foes after the betrayal that happen between them.
If we evaluate all these things only a naive person won't understand that it doesn't take Craig anything to steal from the BSV supporter.

In fact, the project representative on this forum once makes a statement on this forum that the project is over on their ANN thread but sadly, I look for the post for over an hour but it was taken down.

Lucius

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Quote from: pooya87 on October 06, 2022, 11:53:40 PM

~snip~

CZ and similar leaders (as some call them) could have chosen never to support anything that more than evidently indicated that it would turn into a greedy enterprise of a few people with dangerous intentions - but all of them, if we are honest, never cared too much for Bitcoin, nor do they today. Even when some people like @hodlonaut find themselves in court because they told the truth, none of these leaders want to show their support, or they show it in a very strange way by conditioning donations in some kind of altcoins.

I was honestly surprised that so many CEX are still supporting a project backed by someone like Faketoshi...

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Quote from: o_e_l_e_o on October 07, 2022, 02:23:30 AM

It's probably worth pointing out that this is completely intentional. As Greg has pointed out above, CSW's team will be releasing code which allows him to arbitrarily seize BSV. This will only work if the majority of nodes run this idiotic code. This would obviously be impossible on a decentralized network such as bitcoin, where >99.9% of nodes would simply refuse to run such code. But since they've deliberately made it so difficult to run a BSV node (there are currently a grand total of 9 nodes at the chain tip), it becomes much easier to get a majority of nodes to implement these changes, particularly since the majority of nodes are being running by CSW, Ayre, or another member of his team.

If someone had a million dollars a year to spend, they could use it to break their tactics on their own chain by running 2x the amount of nodes that they are running, so that's 18 more nodes - all in the cloud. CSW can't do nothin' about it without running more nodes, which will burn a hole in his pocket and especially Ayre's pockets. Grin

Running those nodes anonymously would be an even better tactic.

Topic: PSA: Get your Bitcoin off any exchange supporting "BSV" (due to insolvency risk) - page 4. (Read 1514 times)