At this point, the only thing I'm still waiting for is the bitcoin address that each party wants their bitcoins sent to.
Looks like you done you best here given the circumstances Dan, always with integrity...
Topic: Public Discussion - escrow dispute - soniq & MikeMike (Read 3599 times)
Looks like you done you best here given the circumstances Dan, always with integrity...
At this point, the only thing I'm still waiting for is the bitcoin address that each party wants their bitcoins sent to.
Danny/Soniq,
As I have made you aware by PM I've had a complicated death in my immediate Family.
I see we won't receive any compensation for the 4-miners being delivered late
though Soniq and I had a personal arrangement it was not put into the Escrow Agreement
and Soniq will not reply to my numerous emails/PM's to address this matter.
Soniq did agree to a payment of 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC I believe for the 5th late terraminer.
Given no recourse and it being clear that's better than this we will accept the 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC agreed upon arrangement.
Which ever it is go with it if it's not too late...
I want to get it over and move on.
Though I'd still like to know what's going on with our Jupiter GB payouts that we never received nor any of the NMC
that was mined that's now near worthless and I can only hope that Soniq won't retaliate and hold this against us
thereby never making good for those Jupiter GB payouts and NMC payout.
Sincerely,
MM
As I have made you aware by PM I've had a complicated death in my immediate Family.
I see we won't receive any compensation for the 4-miners being delivered late
though Soniq and I had a personal arrangement it was not put into the Escrow Agreement
and Soniq will not reply to my numerous emails/PM's to address this matter.
Soniq did agree to a payment of 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC I believe for the 5th late terraminer.
Given no recourse and it being clear that's better than this we will accept the 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC agreed upon arrangement.
Which ever it is go with it if it's not too late...
I want to get it over and move on.
Though I'd still like to know what's going on with our Jupiter GB payouts that we never received nor any of the NMC
that was mined that's now near worthless and I can only hope that Soniq won't retaliate and hold this against us
thereby never making good for those Jupiter GB payouts and NMC payout.
Sincerely,
MM
MikeMike,
I am truly sorry for your loss. I realize that in such a situation, there isn't much interest in dealing with a long running dispute such as this. Unfortunately, we've reached a situation where negotiations no longer seem to be productive.
As indicated in the quotes below, I have now received agreement from both parties on a settlement. I will release escrow to both parties as soon as they provide me a bitcoin address to send the funds to.
I would settle for 3.6 so 19.2 BTC?
Larry
Larry
I accept whatever you propose here.
Sincerely,
LEN
Sincerely,
LEN
For clarification, escrow will be released as follows:
- 19.2 BTC released to a bitcoin address provided by soniq
- 4.2 BTC released to a bitcoin address provided by MikeMike
Hi
The original 4 were delivered April 28th
The last on that was delivered late by Cointerra was delivered Tuesday, 05/27/2014 at 11:25 A.M.
The original 4 were delivered April 28th
The last on that was delivered late by Cointerra was delivered Tuesday, 05/27/2014 at 11:25 A.M.
Assuming that I get confirmation from MikeMike of these delivery dates, I calculate compensation for late delivery of 1 unit as follows:
1.6 TH/s miner
May 1 - 11 difficulty = 8000872135.9681635
May 12 - 23 difficulty = 8853416309.1278
May 24 - 27 difficulty = 10455720138.484837
Average calculated expected income at each difficulty:
May 1 - 11: 0.10058073 per day X 11 days = 1.10638803 BTC
May 12 - 23: 0.09089104 per day X 12 days = 1.09069248 BTC
May 24 - 27: 0.07697233 per day X 4 days = 0.3078893 BTC
(income generated calculated as the average of the values reported by the following three websites: alloscomp.com, bitcoinx.com, and coinwarz.com)
1.10638803+1.09069248+0.3078893 = 2.50496981 BTC
As such, MikeMike is due 2.50496981 BTC refunded from escrow as compensation for late delivery.
The remainder of escrow will be released to soniq.
I'll wait 48 hours to see if there are any facts or relevant details that I am missing. If nothing new comes to light, then escrow will be released as indicated.
If any one has any objections to this resolution, or any reason why this decision violates the original escrow agreement, they need to post the associated information in this thread before Thursday, 2014-08-14 23:59 CDT (UTC-5:00).
Danny/Soniq,
As I have made you aware by PM I've had a complicated death in my immediate Family.
I see we won't receive any compensation for the 4-miners being delivered late
though Soniq and I had a personal arrangement it was not put into the Escrow Agreement
and Soniq will not reply to my numerous emails/PM's to address this matter.
Soniq did agree to a payment of 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC I believe for the 5th late terraminer.
Given no recourse and it being clear that's better than this we will accept the 4.8BTC or 4.2BTC agreed upon arrangement.
Which ever it is go with it if it's not too late...
I want to get it over and move on.
Though I'd still like to know what's going on with our Jupiter GB payouts that we never received nor any of the NMC
that was mined that's now near worthless and I can only hope that Soniq won't retaliate and hold this against us
thereby never making good for those Jupiter GB payouts and NMC payout.
Sincerely,
MM
Hi
The original 4 were delivered April 28th
The last on that was delivered late by Cointerra was delivered Tuesday, 05/27/2014 at 11:25 A.M.
The original 4 were delivered April 28th
The last on that was delivered late by Cointerra was delivered Tuesday, 05/27/2014 at 11:25 A.M.
Assuming that I get confirmation from MikeMike of these delivery dates, I calculate compensation for late delivery of 1 unit as follows:
1.6 TH/s miner
May 1 - 11 difficulty = 8000872135.9681635
May 12 - 23 difficulty = 8853416309.1278
May 24 - 27 difficulty = 10455720138.484837
Average calculated expected income at each difficulty:
May 1 - 11: 0.10058073 per day X 11 days = 1.10638803 BTC
May 12 - 23: 0.09089104 per day X 12 days = 1.09069248 BTC
May 24 - 27: 0.07697233 per day X 4 days = 0.3078893 BTC
(income generated calculated as the average of the values reported by the following three websites: alloscomp.com, bitcoinx.com, and coinwarz.com)
1.10638803+1.09069248+0.3078893 = 2.50496981 BTC
As such, MikeMike is due 2.50496981 BTC refunded from escrow as compensation for late delivery.
The remainder of escrow will be released to soniq.
I'll wait 48 hours to see if there are any facts or relevant details that I am missing. If nothing new comes to light, then escrow will be released as indicated.
If any one has any objections to this resolution, or any reason why this decision violates the original escrow agreement, they need to post the associated information in this thread before Thursday, 2014-08-14 23:59 CDT (UTC-5:00).
Due to delivery problems, the two parties spent the past three months attempting to re-negotiate their agreement. They appear to have reached an impasse. I've been asked to release escrow according to the original agreement. I received the following message today from soniq:
The original agreement required compensation to the buyer for late delivery. I have therefore sent the following message to both parties and am waiting on a response:
Hello Danny and MikeMike
I have sent an email to MikeMike asking that we settle at 19.6 BTC and his response was to meet in the middle. ( Not sure what that means?) I sent an email over a week ago with no response or clarification.
Because we cannot come to agreement , I am aksing you Danny to make a final decsion on this matter.
Larry
I have sent an email to MikeMike asking that we settle at 19.6 BTC and his response was to meet in the middle. ( Not sure what that means?) I sent an email over a week ago with no response or clarification.
Because we cannot come to agreement , I am aksing you Danny to make a final decsion on this matter.
Larry
The original agreement required compensation to the buyer for late delivery. I have therefore sent the following message to both parties and am waiting on a response:
MikeMike and Soniq,
It appears that it will not be possible for you both to reach an agreement. In order for me to properly calculate the required compensation for late delivery, I need to know exactly what date each of the 5 units were delivered.
Please send me this information as soon as possible, and I will calculate and release escrow according to the original escrow agreement.
- DannyHamilton
It appears that it will not be possible for you both to reach an agreement. In order for me to properly calculate the required compensation for late delivery, I need to know exactly what date each of the 5 units were delivered.
Please send me this information as soon as possible, and I will calculate and release escrow according to the original escrow agreement.
- DannyHamilton
Soniq is shady safe to assume he is at fault
Fault doesn't matter.
Equipment was paid for. Equipment was delivered late.
There is an escrow agreement in place that specifies what happens in this situation.
The parties are welcome to re-negotiate the terms of their agreement if they like, but if they choose not to, I'll release the escrow according to the original agreement as best I can.
Soniq is shady safe to assume he is at fault
Thx Danny.
Can we ask you to put a reasonable deadline on Soniq to respond? In case he does not, we can pick up on future plans from there.
Can we ask you to put a reasonable deadline on Soniq to respond? In case he does not, we can pick up on future plans from there.
Regarding this particular transaction, I'll continue to hold the funds in escrow until one of the following occurs:
- Soniq and MikeMike both inform me that they have reached a new agreement on how the funds in escrow should be released
- Soniq demands that the original escrow agreement be enforced without renegotiating
- MikeMike demands that the original escrow agreement be enforced without renegotiating
Thx Danny.
Can we ask you to put a reasonable deadline on Soniq to respond? In case he does not, we can pick up on future plans from there.
Can we ask you to put a reasonable deadline on Soniq to respond? In case he does not, we can pick up on future plans from there.
Thank you for comprehensive feedback Danny.
I'm afraid Larry might have intentionally dropped his responsibilities around the forums. We have two Skype groups of 43 people in a Jupiter GB and 19 people in a CoinTerra GB and although we can see Larry is still online in Skype, he is not responding to any messages or PMs via Skype from anyone.
I am just curious as to when last either you or MikeMike has heard anything from him?
We have very concerned GB members. It might be time to consider alternative plans in the event Larry does not respond promptly.
Thx again for all the efforts and being patient in the midst of this controversy.
I'm afraid Larry might have intentionally dropped his responsibilities around the forums. We have two Skype groups of 43 people in a Jupiter GB and 19 people in a CoinTerra GB and although we can see Larry is still online in Skype, he is not responding to any messages or PMs via Skype from anyone.
I am just curious as to when last either you or MikeMike has heard anything from him?
We have very concerned GB members. It might be time to consider alternative plans in the event Larry does not respond promptly.
Thx again for all the efforts and being patient in the midst of this controversy.
As an escrow provider, I am doing what I can to enforce the original agreement between MikeMike and Soniq (regardless of how any of us feel about soniq's ability to honor his commitments). The whole purpose of escrow is to allow individuals to do business without needing to concern themselves very much with the ability of the counterparty to honor commitments.
Both parties are welcome to renegotiate the terms of the agreement if they wish to do so. If they BOTH tell me that they've reached a new agreement, I'll release escrow according to the new agreement. If either of them refuse to renegotiate, then the original terms will be enforced. Up until now, lack of communication from Soniq has made it impossible to determine if he was willing to renegotiate or not. As long as MikeMike was willing to continue to try, and Soniq did not specifically demand release according to the original terms, I've been willing to continue to hold escrow and wait to see.
a little off topic, but nice to see soniq can negotiate getting his funds but fail to inform his multiple group guys what the feck is going on and where their money is 
Saying that they are negotiating is a rather generous and kind way of describing what has actually been happening.
I've heard absolutely nothing from Soniq for over a month until today, and MikeMike has patiently been repeatedly sending emails and PMs to Soniq while receiving very little response (if any).
Due to limited communication from Soniq, this renegotiation has taken a long time and has not yet been resolved.
- snip -
Soniq appears to be ignoring any request for compensation for late delivery on the first 4 units and isn't even participating in any conversation about it.
- snip -
- snip -
Soniq appears to be ignoring any request for compensation for late delivery on the first 4 units and isn't even participating in any conversation about it.
- snip -
Thank you for comprehensive feedback Danny.
I'm afraid Larry might have intentionally dropped his responsibilities around the forums. We have two Skype groups of 43 people in a Jupiter GB and 19 people in a CoinTerra GB and although we can see Larry is still online in Skype, he is not responding to any messages or PMs via Skype from anyone.
I am just curious as to when last either you or MikeMike has heard anything from him?
We have very concerned GB members. It might be time to consider alternative plans in the event Larry does not respond promptly.
Thx again for all the efforts and being patient in the midst of this controversy.
I'm afraid Larry might have intentionally dropped his responsibilities around the forums. We have two Skype groups of 43 people in a Jupiter GB and 19 people in a CoinTerra GB and although we can see Larry is still online in Skype, he is not responding to any messages or PMs via Skype from anyone.
I am just curious as to when last either you or MikeMike has heard anything from him?
We have very concerned GB members. It might be time to consider alternative plans in the event Larry does not respond promptly.
Thx again for all the efforts and being patient in the midst of this controversy.
a little off topic, but nice to see soniq can negotiate getting his funds but fail to inform his multiple group guys what the feck is going on and where their money is
MikeMike and Soniq have attempted to re-negotiate.
Due to limited communication from Soniq, this renegotiation has taken a long time and has not yet been resolved.
It was determined by MikeMike that the 5th unit that originally did not arrive, was no longer desired.
20 days later it showed up anyhow.
MikeMike doesn't want it any longer due to it not being delivered as required in the original agreement and wants a refund for the payment originally sent for it. Soniq wants 7 BTC for it even though he was told weeks before it's arrival that it was no longer wanted. Soniq has not yet provided a shipping address to send it back to him.
There is still disagreement about the 0.06 BTC that were apparently due to MikeMike from a previous unresolved transaction, and which supposedly Soniq agreed to apply to this transaction.
Soniq appears to be ignoring any request for compensation for late delivery on the first 4 units and isn't even participating in any conversation about it.
I'll continue to wait for MikeMike and Soniq to complete their negotiations. If they inform me that they are unable to come to an agreement, I'll enforce the original agreement in as fair a way as I can within the specified constraints. This will require computing how much the 5th miner should have been able to mine during the 20 days MikeMike was waiting for delivery.
Due to limited communication from Soniq, this renegotiation has taken a long time and has not yet been resolved.
It was determined by MikeMike that the 5th unit that originally did not arrive, was no longer desired.
20 days later it showed up anyhow.
MikeMike doesn't want it any longer due to it not being delivered as required in the original agreement and wants a refund for the payment originally sent for it. Soniq wants 7 BTC for it even though he was told weeks before it's arrival that it was no longer wanted. Soniq has not yet provided a shipping address to send it back to him.
There is still disagreement about the 0.06 BTC that were apparently due to MikeMike from a previous unresolved transaction, and which supposedly Soniq agreed to apply to this transaction.
Soniq appears to be ignoring any request for compensation for late delivery on the first 4 units and isn't even participating in any conversation about it.
I'll continue to wait for MikeMike and Soniq to complete their negotiations. If they inform me that they are unable to come to an agreement, I'll enforce the original agreement in as fair a way as I can within the specified constraints. This will require computing how much the 5th miner should have been able to mine during the 20 days MikeMike was waiting for delivery.
Here are some of the disgruntled GB threads that can be argued as cause:
[GB]Terraminer IV #5, Coinsortium
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
[Group Buy]12 KNCminer Jupiter's 15 Sold [Closed] Jupiter Pool
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226319.780
[Closed][GB] KNCminer Jupiter #21 Sold [Added to 8 TH/s Jupiter Pool]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242878.new#new
In the latest thread there is a suggestion to hand the issue over to a law firm. Maybe Danny could mail Larry's details to them if he does not want to realease it publicly.
[GB]Terraminer IV #5, Coinsortium
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
[Group Buy]12 KNCminer Jupiter's 15 Sold [Closed] Jupiter Pool
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=226319.780
[Closed][GB] KNCminer Jupiter #21 Sold [Added to 8 TH/s Jupiter Pool]
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=242878.new#new
In the latest thread there is a suggestion to hand the issue over to a law firm. Maybe Danny could mail Larry's details to them if he does not want to realease it publicly.
Its time to do something... these GBs admin's are getting away with our BTC... I tiered of herring everyone complain and NOT do anything!
Ok people ... let me know if anyone would like file a lawsuit against Soniq... also I would like to raise some BTC (a Bounty, just like Roger Ver) to see if any can find out who the heck is Soniq... I already talk to Wood Law Firm and they sound interested in the case
I believe if we get ever one who has been part of soniq's GBs and we have a strong case ... please let me know who we can trust for escrow, I know of some one with a good rep BUT we can all vote and get the best person for the job 
Please PM and let me know if your in, also if you have good administrative skills and you are a share holder and would like to help, Please let me know... I would like to have 2 others helping out with the Bounty and the filing of the Lawsuit.Thanks
Here their info if you would like to contact them personally:
888-237-0999
http://www.woodlaw.com/
Ok people ... let me know if anyone would like file a lawsuit against Soniq... also I would like to raise some BTC (a Bounty, just like Roger Ver) to see if any can find out who the heck is Soniq... I already talk to Wood Law Firm and they sound interested in the case
I believe if we get ever one who has been part of soniq's GBs and we have a strong case ... please let me know who we can trust for escrow, I know of some one with a good rep BUT we can all vote and get the best person for the job Please PM and let me know if your in
, also if you have good administrative skills and you are a share holder and would like to help, Please let me know... I would like to have 2 others helping out with the Bounty and the filing of the Lawsuit.Thanks Here their info if you would like to contact them personally:
888-237-0999
http://www.woodlaw.com/
Hi Danny
Given the controversy around soniq's disappearance as admin from multiple GB's e.g.:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
can we reasonably request a public release of any personal information you or John K might have of soniq in order for legal recourse to be pursued?
Given the controversy around soniq's disappearance as admin from multiple GB's e.g.:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
can we reasonably request a public release of any personal information you or John K might have of soniq in order for legal recourse to be pursued?
To be honest I don't think he should release that information due to the fact that would be unprofessional as an escrow who is suppose to be 3rd party. Unless it is for a cause that is supported by factual evidence or in a case with law enforcement is involved (along with valid claims) then it should be released.
Hi Danny
Given the controversy around soniq's disappearance as admin from multiple GB's e.g.:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
can we reasonably request a public release of any personal information you or John K might have of soniq in order for legal recourse to be pursued?
Given the controversy around soniq's disappearance as admin from multiple GB's e.g.:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=278460.new;topicseen#new
can we reasonably request a public release of any personal information you or John K might have of soniq in order for legal recourse to be pursued?
I've reviewed the escrow agreement again. I don't see anything in the agreement that would allow me to refund the 0.06 BTC balance due from prior to the transaction. I also don't see anything in the agreement that would allow me to compensate MikeMike for the 4 items that were delivered after Monday, but before Thursday.
I realize that this is a frustrating situation for MikeMike, but I have to enforce the agreement that I have as impartially and accurately as I can.
I recognize that he expected delivery on Monday, and that he expected compensation for any delivery that occurred after Monday. Unfortunately this was not made clear prior to the transaction, and I never received agreement from sonic on this.
In the communications between MikeMike and sonic that I've seen, there is nothing about MikeMike receiving any of the balance that was due to him prior to the transaction. Everything indicated that entire balance was being applied to the purchase. Therefore, it is already accounted for in the refund and products that MikeMike receives.
MikeMike will receive a full refund of 7.8 BTC for the unit that was not delivered.
I have received 2 different addresses from MikeMike at 2 different times for his refund. As soon as MikeMike clarifies which address to use, I'll send the 7.8 BTC refund.
I have not received any address from soniq for his funds. I will continue to hold his payment in escrow until he contacts me with a bitcoin address.
I realize that this is a frustrating situation for MikeMike, but I have to enforce the agreement that I have as impartially and accurately as I can.
I recognize that he expected delivery on Monday, and that he expected compensation for any delivery that occurred after Monday. Unfortunately this was not made clear prior to the transaction, and I never received agreement from sonic on this.
In the communications between MikeMike and sonic that I've seen, there is nothing about MikeMike receiving any of the balance that was due to him prior to the transaction. Everything indicated that entire balance was being applied to the purchase. Therefore, it is already accounted for in the refund and products that MikeMike receives.
MikeMike will receive a full refund of 7.8 BTC for the unit that was not delivered.
I have received 2 different addresses from MikeMike at 2 different times for his refund. As soon as MikeMike clarifies which address to use, I'll send the 7.8 BTC refund.
I have not received any address from soniq for his funds. I will continue to hold his payment in escrow until he contacts me with a bitcoin address.
#1
We were unaware of the Wednesday Deadline set.
We were unaware of the Wednesday Deadline set.
This was mentioned multiple times in the escrow agreement. There is nothing I can do about that now.
Who Set that date?
I did, and you agreed to it. See your original escrow agreement. Here are the relevant details:
Why was that Date Chosen?
Because neither of you indicated an expected delivery date when you requested the escrow agreement. I chose a date that made sense based on escrows I've held in the past. At that time you had not yet indicated that you would be paying for expedited delivery. Once you chose to pay for expedited delivery, you needed to get agreement from soniq about a change in compensation deadline, and you both needed to inform me that you agreed to change the deadline. See your original escrow agreement. I made the process for changing requirements as clear as I possibly could. Here are the relevant details:
Personally it just does not make sense.
Why would we pay for next day delivery and give a 5-day window?
Why would we pay for next day delivery and give a 5-day window?
I frequently hold escrows where someone demands delivery before a particualr deadline, but pays for delivery sooner. When you want it, and when you need it are not always the same thing.
#2
We paid for the Shipping of all Units shipped by FedEx.
The other 2-units were negotiated to 7.8 and we paid the shipping.
We can PM you the conversation.
We paid for the Shipping of all Units shipped by FedEx.
The other 2-units were negotiated to 7.8 and we paid the shipping.
We can PM you the conversation.
Please do. Please also send me the exact amount that you paid for the shipping on those two units. To properly calculate whether you are due a refund of prior balance due, I need to know exactly how much of that prior balance due soniq agreed to apply to which units.
#3
We are still having Issues with 1-of the Units Overheating a chip that we have to continually reboot.
We have not heard back from Cointerra about the Amber LED's in the interior in that one particular unit while the 3-others have Green LED's in the interior.
We are still having Issues with 1-of the Units Overheating a chip that we have to continually reboot.
We have not heard back from Cointerra about the Amber LED's in the interior in that one particular unit while the 3-others have Green LED's in the interior.
There are no details in the escrow agreement indicating compensation for faulty equipment. Your options are:
- Return the unit to soniq and request a refund
- Keep the unit and work with Cointerra to get it repaired or replaced
- Negotiate with soniq and arrange an agreement for compensation
Since you have already been mining with this unit for almost 3 weeks, it is quickly getting to be unreasonable to be requesting a full refund on the unit.
Just want to say that this seems to be a good objective dispute resolution.
I will be making my decision in about 18 hours.
Currently, here is my analysis of the situation:
Refund for late delivery (1.1845 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for late delivery.
Refund of balance due (0.06 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
Refund of undelivered product (7.8 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will be compensated for 1 undelivered unit.
Total refund I expect to release to MikeMike if no additional information is provided in the next 17 hours:
7.8 BTC
After processing the 7.8 BTC refund, the remaining balance of escrow will be released to soniq.
NOTE: It is unclear to me at the moment exactly what the negotiated price was for the 2 units that were exchanged for the debt owed. It is also unclear to me at the moment who paid the delivery costs on those 2 units. If it can be demonstrated that the agreed price was less than the balance owed, or that MikeMike paid the shipping costs on those 2 units, then there is a possibility that MikeMike may have a valid claim for a portion of that debt.
Currently, here is my analysis of the situation:
Refund for late delivery (1.1845 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for late delivery.
- The escrow agreement specifically states that lost mining will be compensated for each day delivery is late AFTER Wednesday 2014-04-30
- The escrow agreement specifically states that escrow release conditions can be modified if both parties notify the escrow provider about agreement with the change.
- Prior to the shipping, I never saw an agreement from either party that the deadline for lost mining compensation was to be moved earlier due to this desire.
- Without agreeing to a change of the compensation deadline, MikeMike made payment to the escrow address.
- Without agreeing to a change of the compensation deadline, soniq made an effort to deliver.
- Delivery of the 4 delivered units was successfully made before the agreed upon deadline had expired.
- After delivery, I finally saw from MikeMike that he wanted the compensation deadline be moved earlier, but I still have not seen any indication that soniq ever agreed to an earlier deadline for late delivery compensation
Refund of balance due (0.06 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
- It is clear that prior to the beginning of the transaction soniq owed MikeMike some bitcoins.
- It is also clear that both parties agreed to apply that balance toward the purchase of 2 units.
- During price negotiation, soniq agreed to ship 2 of the units that he already had on hand in exchange for this balance.
- MikeMike agreed to the exchange of the remaining balance for 2 of the units on hand
- The negotiated cost of 2 of the remaining units on hand (including shipping) is slightly more than the balance that soniq owed.
- Therefore it appears that soniq accepted reduced compensation for the first 2 units in exchange for the settling his debt
- Those 2 units were delivered
Refund of undelivered product (7.8 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will be compensated for 1 undelivered unit.
- Mike agreed to pay for 5 units.
- Mike has supplied tracking information that he states is for the fifth unit
- The supplied tracking information indicates that the fifth unit was not delivered.
- soniq has not made any statements denying that the provided tracking information is for the fifth unit
- As such, to the best of my ability to determine, the fifth unit was not delivered.
Total refund I expect to release to MikeMike if no additional information is provided in the next 17 hours:
7.8 BTC
After processing the 7.8 BTC refund, the remaining balance of escrow will be released to soniq.
NOTE: It is unclear to me at the moment exactly what the negotiated price was for the 2 units that were exchanged for the debt owed. It is also unclear to me at the moment who paid the delivery costs on those 2 units. If it can be demonstrated that the agreed price was less than the balance owed, or that MikeMike paid the shipping costs on those 2 units, then there is a possibility that MikeMike may have a valid claim for a portion of that debt.
Danny,
#1
We were unaware of the Wednesday Deadline set.
Who Set that date?
Why was that Date Chosen?
Personally it just does not make sense.
Why would we pay for next day delivery and give a 5-day window?
#2
We paid for the Shipping of all Units shipped by FedEx.
The other 2-units were negotiated to 7.8 and we paid the shipping.
We can PM you the conversation.
Here is shipping amount paid by us for all units:
05/02/14
RECUR DEBIT CRD PMT05/01 FEDEX _________ 800-4633339 TN _________________ MCC=______
$766.80
#3
We are still having Issues with 1-of the Units Overheating a chip that we have to continually reboot.
We have not heard back from Cointerra about the Amber LED's in the interior in that one particular unit while the 3-others have Green LED's in the interior.
Seems like a fair and logical decision, Danny, based on the information available.
I will be making my decision in about 18 hours.
Currently, here is my analysis of the situation:
Refund for late delivery (1.1845 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for late delivery.
Refund of balance due (0.06 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
Refund of undelivered product (7.8 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will be compensated for 1 undelivered unit.
Total refund I expect to release to MikeMike if no additional information is provided in the next 17 hours:
7.8 BTC
After processing the 7.8 BTC refund, the remaining balance of escrow will be released to soniq.
NOTE: It is unclear to me at the moment exactly what the negotiated price was for the 2 units that were exchanged for the debt owed. It is also unclear to me at the moment who paid the delivery costs on those 2 units. If it can be demonstrated that the agreed price was less than the balance owed, or that MikeMike paid the shipping costs on those 2 units, then there is a possibility that MikeMike may have a valid claim for a portion of that debt.
Currently, here is my analysis of the situation:
Refund for late delivery (1.1845 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for late delivery.
- The escrow agreement specifically states that lost mining will be compensated for each day delivery is late AFTER Wednesday 2014-04-30
- The escrow agreement specifically states that escrow release conditions can be modified if both parties notify the escrow provider about agreement with the change.
- Prior to the shipping, I never saw an agreement from either party that the deadline for lost mining compensation was to be moved earlier due to this desire.
- Without agreeing to a change of the compensation deadline, MikeMike made payment to the escrow address.
- Without agreeing to a change of the compensation deadline, soniq made an effort to deliver.
- Delivery of the 4 delivered units was successfully made before the agreed upon deadline had expired.
- After delivery, I finally saw from MikeMike that he wanted the compensation deadline be moved earlier, but I still have not seen any indication that soniq ever agreed to an earlier deadline for late delivery compensation
Refund of balance due (0.06 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will not be compensated for balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
- It is clear that prior to the beginning of the transaction soniq owed MikeMike some bitcoins.
- It is also clear that both parties agreed to apply that balance toward the purchase of 2 units.
- During price negotiation, soniq agreed to ship 2 of the units that he already had on hand in exchange for this balance.
- MikeMike agreed to the exchange of the remaining balance for 2 of the units on hand
- The negotiated cost of 2 of the remaining units on hand (including shipping) is slightly more than the balance that soniq owed.
- Therefore it appears that soniq accepted reduced compensation for the first 2 units in exchange for the settling his debt
- Those 2 units were delivered
Refund of undelivered product (7.8 BTC requested)
Due to the following, unless additional information is shown to prove otherwise, I expect that MikeMike will be compensated for 1 undelivered unit.
- Mike agreed to pay for 5 units.
- Mike has supplied tracking information that he states is for the fifth unit
- The supplied tracking information indicates that the fifth unit was not delivered.
- soniq has not made any statements denying that the provided tracking information is for the fifth unit
- As such, to the best of my ability to determine, the fifth unit was not delivered.
Total refund I expect to release to MikeMike if no additional information is provided in the next 17 hours:
7.8 BTC
After processing the 7.8 BTC refund, the remaining balance of escrow will be released to soniq.
NOTE: It is unclear to me at the moment exactly what the negotiated price was for the 2 units that were exchanged for the debt owed. It is also unclear to me at the moment who paid the delivery costs on those 2 units. If it can be demonstrated that the agreed price was less than the balance owed, or that MikeMike paid the shipping costs on those 2 units, then there is a possibility that MikeMike may have a valid claim for a portion of that debt.
#2 5th Unit not delivered etc.
FIRST:
I do not believe soniq is nor has been trying to take advantage of us in these matters.
We believe he has his plate full as I do so I can be understanding...and actually look forward to do more business in the Future.
We were told by soniq that he had the 5th repaired unit from the Manufacturer available to him
so made this deal for the entire 5-units.
It was not until about an hour or less prior to shipment we are told that the 5th Unit was being rerouted from the Manufacturer to us.
We made sure it was to be delivered to the Georgia Address and have many PM's denoting that concern
and sent a few PM's asking for it's tracking Number to no avail.
After about a week we spoke to soniq.
He let us know it was held in Customs awaiting a Label to First be shipped back to the Manufacturer and Then to Georgia.
That it was Company Policy for re-Routing a Miner.
We let him know we did no longer want the 5th unit as too much time transpired.
However left the door open upon NOTICE from soniq of an actual Delivery Date to Georgia being it was still held in Customs
and had to first be shipped to the Manufacturer for rerouting to Georgia.
Then we could renegotiate a Price. soniq Agreed.
After no reply for days concerning it's delivery and only after Danny became involved soniq
mentioned it had been delivered.
Whether or not he knew the Tracking Number he provided was the one for Delivery Back
to the Manufacturer I do not know.
The Tracking showed Delivery to the Manufacturer NOT to Georgia.
Being we have not heard from soniq on a possible Delivery Date to Georgia we are requesting
this 5th unit's BTC be Refunded.
7.8BTC
NOTE:
The Label cost for Overnight Services to Georgia USA is a Non-Issue
since it has not been used and we will not be billed.
In the Prior email it's noted the Packages did not make it to the Drop Off Friday
and we do not accept responsibility for this Delay.
The 4-Units were not Delivered till Tuesday 10:30am...
3- Full Days Late:
We are only asking for lost mining time for 2-of those days since the Delivery Service made an Error
and we should have had them Monday 10:30am.
Though we have not received any compensation for this error it shows we are being more than fair
in only asking for lost mining time for 2-Full days and at the amount of hashing speed for the 4-Units
per the Actual Amount of Blocks Found during that time by the Pool.
Grand Total BTC refund Requested:
9.0445 BTC.
A:
1.1845 BTC: Lost mining revenue due to late delivery.
Lost mining for 48hrs on 6.4TH/s at Corresponding Difficulty:
We estimate this at:
.59225 per day/24hrs. based upon the amount of blocks found on those two days.
B:
7.80000 BTC: Refund for undelivered fifth miner.
C:
0.06000 BTC: Refund of balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
Sincerely,
FIRST:
I do not believe soniq is nor has been trying to take advantage of us in these matters.
We believe he has his plate full as I do so I can be understanding...and actually look forward to do more business in the Future.
We were told by soniq that he had the 5th repaired unit from the Manufacturer available to him
so made this deal for the entire 5-units.
It was not until about an hour or less prior to shipment we are told that the 5th Unit was being rerouted from the Manufacturer to us.
We made sure it was to be delivered to the Georgia Address and have many PM's denoting that concern
and sent a few PM's asking for it's tracking Number to no avail.
After about a week we spoke to soniq.
He let us know it was held in Customs awaiting a Label to First be shipped back to the Manufacturer and Then to Georgia.
That it was Company Policy for re-Routing a Miner.
We let him know we did no longer want the 5th unit as too much time transpired.
However left the door open upon NOTICE from soniq of an actual Delivery Date to Georgia being it was still held in Customs
and had to first be shipped to the Manufacturer for rerouting to Georgia.
Then we could renegotiate a Price. soniq Agreed.
After no reply for days concerning it's delivery and only after Danny became involved soniq
mentioned it had been delivered.
Whether or not he knew the Tracking Number he provided was the one for Delivery Back
to the Manufacturer I do not know.
The Tracking showed Delivery to the Manufacturer NOT to Georgia.
Being we have not heard from soniq on a possible Delivery Date to Georgia we are requesting
this 5th unit's BTC be Refunded.
7.8BTC
NOTE:
The Label cost for Overnight Services to Georgia USA is a Non-Issue
since it has not been used and we will not be billed.
In the Prior email it's noted the Packages did not make it to the Drop Off Friday
and we do not accept responsibility for this Delay.
The 4-Units were not Delivered till Tuesday 10:30am...
3- Full Days Late:
We are only asking for lost mining time for 2-of those days since the Delivery Service made an Error
and we should have had them Monday 10:30am.
Though we have not received any compensation for this error it shows we are being more than fair
in only asking for lost mining time for 2-Full days and at the amount of hashing speed for the 4-Units
per the Actual Amount of Blocks Found during that time by the Pool.
Grand Total BTC refund Requested:
9.0445 BTC.
A:
1.1845 BTC: Lost mining revenue due to late delivery.
Lost mining for 48hrs on 6.4TH/s at Corresponding Difficulty:
We estimate this at:
.59225 per day/24hrs. based upon the amount of blocks found on those two days.
B:
7.80000 BTC: Refund for undelivered fifth miner.
C:
0.06000 BTC: Refund of balance due at the beginning of the transaction.
Sincerely,
Soniq, Danny:
I owe both you an apology for not being able to get this info posted in time.
We had an emergency job working in the field and shop till early morning hours alternating for 5-Days.
It's now been completed and have had some needed sleep...
FIRST:
I do not believe soniq is nor has been trying to take advantage of us in these matters.
We believe he has his plate full as I do so I can be understanding...and actually look forward to do more business in the Future.
#1 Delay of Shipment:
Here are some of my concerns as to what caused the Delay in shipments Friday for our specially paid for Saturday 10:30am Delivery.
1-We sent you/soniq a Test Label PDF to check on quality for scanning purposes. We received no reply so assumed the Quality was fine.
You notified us last minute you thought the quality was not sufficient so we had to rescan and send to you again.
Email Test Label Time:
NOTE: We are on East Coast. I believe it's 2-Hours Earlier where soniq is:
From __________ Fri Apr 25 11:39:32 2014
Message:
Hi ______,
Took awhile but finally got it working.
I've got 9 1/2 hours into getting these labels printed!
Sample to see IF it scans...
Maybe print in dark mode.
All Labels sent by time: 13:37:32
Email Titled:
Last 2-Labels for ___________:
From ___________. Fri Apr 25 13:37:32 2014
We have a total of 7-Emails after this time as massive Confusion on soniq's part ensued.
All Labels were simple and the files themselves were appropriately named to the Corresponding Tracking Numbers last 4-Digits.
Time line for these emails Below:
soniq kept saying he did not have the Labels though he received each of the emails with the attachments
so we kept sending them to him.
1-st of 7 emails:
From _____________. Fri Apr 25 15:01:29 2014
After 6-emails and conversation it's at this time we are told soniq has doubts about the quality of the Labels...
Last of 7- emails: High Res Scans:
From _____________. Fri Apr 25 16:06:27 2014
The Originals AND each consecutive email each had a Name, Destination and Separate Tracking number and file labelled accordingly as well as the Heading of the email listing what it contained.
1-To go to Georgia USA.
4-To go to East Coast USA.
Though soniq knew 4-Units were going to East Coast USA massive confusion took over
and only after I mentioned to look at the 4-Labels clearly sent with the last 4-Digits of the Tracking number
as the File name...To look at those last 4-Digits. They were 4-Different Labels NOT 4- of the same Label.
After Explaining this soniq finally got it BUT I believe he at that time only had 25 minuets to print the labels,
tape them to the boxes and deliver to the drop off in time for the pickup for next day services.
We called the shipping Company and they Confirmed the cutoff time.
Though the Originals were sent a few hours prior...
soniq was fully aware of the next day services rendered and was fully compliant with meeting those terms
to get the 4- Units to the Drop-off in time for Saturday Delivery to the East Coast USA.
I owe both you an apology for not being able to get this info posted in time.
We had an emergency job working in the field and shop till early morning hours alternating for 5-Days.
It's now been completed and have had some needed sleep...
FIRST:
I do not believe soniq is nor has been trying to take advantage of us in these matters.
We believe he has his plate full as I do so I can be understanding...and actually look forward to do more business in the Future.
#1 Delay of Shipment:
Here are some of my concerns as to what caused the Delay in shipments Friday for our specially paid for Saturday 10:30am Delivery.
1-We sent you/soniq a Test Label PDF to check on quality for scanning purposes. We received no reply so assumed the Quality was fine.
You notified us last minute you thought the quality was not sufficient so we had to rescan and send to you again.
Email Test Label Time:
NOTE: We are on East Coast. I believe it's 2-Hours Earlier where soniq is:
From __________ Fri Apr 25 11:39:32 2014
Message:
Hi ______,
Took awhile but finally got it working.
I've got 9 1/2 hours into getting these labels printed!
Sample to see IF it scans...
Maybe print in dark mode.
All Labels sent by time: 13:37:32
Email Titled:
Last 2-Labels for ___________:
From ___________. Fri Apr 25 13:37:32 2014
We have a total of 7-Emails after this time as massive Confusion on soniq's part ensued.
All Labels were simple and the files themselves were appropriately named to the Corresponding Tracking Numbers last 4-Digits.
Time line for these emails Below:
soniq kept saying he did not have the Labels though he received each of the emails with the attachments
so we kept sending them to him.
1-st of 7 emails:
From _____________. Fri Apr 25 15:01:29 2014
After 6-emails and conversation it's at this time we are told soniq has doubts about the quality of the Labels...
Last of 7- emails: High Res Scans:
From _____________. Fri Apr 25 16:06:27 2014
The Originals AND each consecutive email each had a Name, Destination and Separate Tracking number and file labelled accordingly as well as the Heading of the email listing what it contained.
1-To go to Georgia USA.
4-To go to East Coast USA.
Though soniq knew 4-Units were going to East Coast USA massive confusion took over
and only after I mentioned to look at the 4-Labels clearly sent with the last 4-Digits of the Tracking number
as the File name...To look at those last 4-Digits. They were 4-Different Labels NOT 4- of the same Label.
After Explaining this soniq finally got it BUT I believe he at that time only had 25 minuets to print the labels,
tape them to the boxes and deliver to the drop off in time for the pickup for next day services.
We called the shipping Company and they Confirmed the cutoff time.
Though the Originals were sent a few hours prior...
soniq was fully aware of the next day services rendered and was fully compliant with meeting those terms
to get the 4- Units to the Drop-off in time for Saturday Delivery to the East Coast USA.
It has been nearly 6 days since I opened this thread, and neither party has bothered to make any statement or claim regarding their dispute. Since neither party seems interested in providing information or discussing options for amicable resolution, I am forced to make a decision based on the limited information I received in PM.
Unfortunately, I have received only minimal communication from soniq via PM. This puts me in a situation where the bulk of the information I must use to make a decision comes from MikeMike. I have no way of knowing if this information is accurate, but since I've received no objection from soniq I am left with no other options.
I will send an additional PM to both parties immediately, and wait 48 hours for any additional input. If I haven't received any additional commentary on this matter 48 hours from now, I will make a public decision on how to disburse the escrow funds.
Unfortunately, I have received only minimal communication from soniq via PM. This puts me in a situation where the bulk of the information I must use to make a decision comes from MikeMike. I have no way of knowing if this information is accurate, but since I've received no objection from soniq I am left with no other options.
I will send an additional PM to both parties immediately, and wait 48 hours for any additional input. If I haven't received any additional commentary on this matter 48 hours from now, I will make a public decision on how to disburse the escrow funds.
On April 25 at 16:31 CDT, soniq refuses to fund escrow with the previously received balance due to MikeMike, and appears to confim that this balance due to MikeMike will be considered partial payment. Furthermore, he confirms that he has received shipping labels. Also, he states that he will send partial shipment on April 25 based on labels and payment received so far:
On April 25 at 16:42 CDT, MikeMike agrees that soniq will not be required to fund escrow with the bitcoin due to him, and states that a partial refund for portions not received will be acceptable:
BUT my Partners Especially {redacted} will only move ahead IF all goes into Escrow since it's a community Project.
I am not sending money to escrow just to receive it back again. {redacted partial shipment} are paid for already and I can ship today as I have labels now.
That leaves {redacted partial shipment} to be funded, and if its not done soon there will be extra shipping charges on {redacted partial shipment}.
Spoke with {redacted}.
We agree only IF for some reason we do not receive all {redacted complete shipment} then the Escrow for the missing {redacted partial shipment} will go back to us.
On April 25 at 16:42 CDT, MikeMike agrees that soniq will not be required to fund escrow with the bitcoin due to him, and states that a partial refund for portions not received will be acceptable:
- snip -
the {redacted} BTC has nothing to do with the escrow, I already have it in my personal wallet, I will just transfer that too {redacted} wallet, and I can ship {redacted partial shipment} today based on that.
The other {redacted remaining partial shipment} need an escrow agreement of a final price and shipping labels provided. I can agree to {redacted} BTC and you/they pay all shipping
The {redacted partial shipment} I can ship free if the escrow address is funded soon enough, cause its enroute to me right now. I can redirect it too you for no shipping or duty costs .
SO escrow agreement needs payment for {redacted partial shipment} at {redacted} BTC and buyer is required to pay all shipping.
Please do not make this any more complicated than it is or it will drag on for days
We will agree to the {redacted} BTC for the {redacted partial shipment}the {redacted} BTC has nothing to do with the escrow, I already have it in my personal wallet, I will just transfer that too {redacted} wallet, and I can ship {redacted partial shipment} today based on that.
The other {redacted remaining partial shipment} need an escrow agreement of a final price and shipping labels provided. I can agree to {redacted} BTC and you/they pay all shipping
The {redacted partial shipment} I can ship free if the escrow address is funded soon enough, cause its enroute to me right now. I can redirect it too you for no shipping or duty costs .
SO escrow agreement needs payment for {redacted partial shipment} at {redacted} BTC and buyer is required to pay all shipping.
Please do not make this any more complicated than it is or it will drag on for days
BUT my Partners Especially {redacted} will only move ahead IF all goes into Escrow since it's a community Project.
That leaves {redacted partial shipment} to be funded, and if its not done soon there will be extra shipping charges on {redacted partial shipment}.
We agree only IF for some reason we do not receive all {redacted complete shipment} then the Escrow for the missing {redacted partial shipment} will go back to us.
Here is the original signed escrow agreement with redacted information in {}. Due to the modifications to remove identifying and transaction specific information, the signature is not included. If all of the information in this contract becomes public by the statements of the involved parties, I'll re-post it intact with valid signature.
Some of the terms of this agreement were modified after the agreement was sent, but before anything was shipped. I'll dig through my PM history and if/when I find the modifications to the agreement, I'll include them in this thread. I've marked in bold in the agreement those portions of the agreement that appear to be relevant to this discussion:
Some of the terms of this agreement were modified after the agreement was sent, but before anything was shipped. I'll dig through my PM history and if/when I find the modifications to the agreement, I'll include them in this thread. I've marked in bold in the agreement those portions of the agreement that appear to be relevant to this discussion:
Based on my understanding of what I've been told so far, here's what I put together. Let me know if there are any details I've misunderstood or failed to include. If there are any changes to the agreement let me know once you've settled on a final agreement. I will be unavailable today from 13:00 EDT until 22:00 EDT. As long as you both send me a message indicating agreement with any changes, the changes will be honored even if a new signed agreement isn't sent out yet. This is specified in the signed details of the agreement below where it says:
and
As such, as long as you both indicate agreement with any modifications to the current details, it is ok for the escrow address to be funded, for soniq to monitor the escrow address in the public blockchain, and for soniq to send the equipment once all escrow funding transactions have at least 4 confirmations.
Note there are several common details that have not yet been indicated. Such as:
Reaching agreement on details such as these can reduce the risk of disagreement if everything doesn't go perfectly. I’ve made some assumptions about some of these details in the initial agreement below.
Product list:
My current understanding of the transaction terms is as follows:
Normal issue-free transaction:
Disagreement about receipt of product:
Purchaser fails to authorize release and disappears:
If both parties are satisfied with the terms of the transaction as they currently stand, please send a message indicating such. If there are any corrections to my current understanding of the transaction, please let me know.
The escrow address is included in the signed escrow agreement below:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
Escrow ID: 201404231415
The escrow address for the transaction beginning on 2014-04-23 between MikeMike (the bitcoin provider) and soniq (the bitcoin receiver) will be:
{redacted}
Please agree to any conditions (quantity, price, payment method, transaction fees, penalties, conflict resolution, etc) beforehand.
If possible, GPG sign your agreement to prevent any discrepancies later on. GPG signing is not a requirement, and any written exchange in the form of private messages or posts on bitcointalk.org, communication seen by me in IRC, or email is effective as a 'statement of condition'.
Please understand that I am doing this as a community service for users of bitcointalk, I am assuming the risk of holding the escrowed Bitcoins, and I am using my own time to facilitate this transaction. As such, if it does not represent a burden to do so, please consider sending a bitcoin gratuity to {redacted} (valid for this transaction only) after the satisfactory resolution of this transaction.
The fine print:
This Contract is solely generated for the purpose of facilitating the transaction between the bitcoin provider and the bitcoin reciever, identified by the pseudonyms used on bitcointalk.org
The escrow holder, Daniel Hamilton (pseudonym DannyHamilton), assumes and gives no liability or guarantees on the satisfaction of all parties involved, although he agrees to mediate and facilitate the deal to the fullest extent he is capable of. On the event that any problems arises, he will release the escrow to whichever party presents him with the most convincing proof and after an open discussion with others and the moderators of bitcointalk.org.
Neither party should fund the escrow address or provide anything of value to the counter-party until the terms of escrow release have been determined and agreed to by both parties. If no other conditions are received, the default conditions of the contract assume:
{redacted} bitcoins will be placed in escrow by the bitcoin provider. An additional {redacted} BTC will be placed in escrow by the bitcoin receiver. All parties will wait for at least 4 confirmations on the escrow transaction before the bitcoin receiver ships any equipment. The bitcoins will be released from escrow to the bitcoin receiver after the bitcoin provider informs the escrow holder that he has received delivery of the specified equipment in proper operating condition. If, 5 days or more after the funding of the escrow address, the bitcoin provider claims he has not yet received the equipment in advertised condition, and there is no objection from the bitcoin receiver, then escrow will be released back to the bitcoin provider. If, 5 days or more after the bitcoin receiver announces that the equipment has been sent, the bitcoin provider fails to acknowledge or deny receipt of the equipment, escrow will be released to the bitcoin receiver. The bitcoin provider will pay the shipping costs up to {redacted} per unit. The bitcoin receiver will pay any additional shipping costs up to {redacted} per unit. If shipping costs more than {redacted}, then the bitcoin provider will pay all remaining shipping costs. If, for any reason, the bitcoin provider backs out of the transaction, refuses delivery, or returns any products, the bitcoin provider will compensate the bitcoin receiver the equivalent of {redacted} worth of bitcoins at the BitStamp exchange rate at the time the decision not to accept delivery is announced. If, for any reason, the bitcoin receiver does not deliver the products, the bitcoin receiver will compensate the bitcoin provider for any costs incurred from any shipping charges not credited. To add, change, or remove the release conditions, both the bitcoin provider and bitcoin receiver must communicate their acceptance of the modified terms with the escrow holder.
BITCOIN RECEIVER PLEASE NOTICE:
___________________
The default terms of this contract are designed to protect the bitcoin provider against a fraudulent bitcoin receiver. The protections provided to the bitcoin receiver are minimal. Under the default conditions of this contract the only protection provided to the bitcoin receiver is the ability to refuse to provide anything of value until better conditions have been negotiated. If the bitcoin receiver delivers the product without first negotiating and confirming other conditions, there is an opportunity for the bitcoin provider to lie and claim that they never received the equipment or that it was non-functional on arrival. The burden of proof would then be on the bitcoin receiver to demonstrate that the bitcoin provider did indeed receive it and that it was working properly when it arrived.
The written acceptance by both parties (or the failure to reject) and the sending of bitcoins to the escrow address above constitutes the acceptance of the terms and conditions stated as well as acceptance of any mutually agreed escrow release conditions, and the activation of this contract.
The following contact information can be used if the bitcointalk website becomes unresponsive before the transaction is complete:
Daniel Hamilton
P.O. BOX {redacted}
{state redacted}, IL {zip code redacted}
{phone number redacted}
{email address redacted}
Thank you.
DannyHamilton (the escrow holder)
2014-04-23 14:15 CDT (UTC-5:00)
Escrow: {redacted} (valid for this transaction only)
Tips: {redacted} (valid for this transaction only)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Quote
GPG signing is not a requirement, and any written exchange in the form of private messages or posts on bitcointalk.org, communication seen by me in IRC, or email is effective as a 'statement of condition'.
and
Quote
To add, change, or remove the release conditions, both the bitcoin provider and bitcoin receiver must communicate their acceptance of the modified terms with the escrow holder
As such, as long as you both indicate agreement with any modifications to the current details, it is ok for the escrow address to be funded, for soniq to monitor the escrow address in the public blockchain, and for soniq to send the equipment once all escrow funding transactions have at least 4 confirmations.
Note there are several common details that have not yet been indicated. Such as:
- What shipping provider will be used? (UPS, FedEx, etc)?
- Will the package be insured?
- Will a signature be required on delivery?
- Will a tracking number be provided for the shipment?
- When is item expected to be shipped out?
- What is the expected delivery date?
Reaching agreement on details such as these can reduce the risk of disagreement if everything doesn't go perfectly. I’ve made some assumptions about some of these details in the initial agreement below.
Product list:
- {redacted}
My current understanding of the transaction terms is as follows:
Normal issue-free transaction:
- MikeMike will supply {redacted} BTC to escrow before 23:59 UTC on Friday 2014-04-25
- soniq will supply an additional {redacted} BTC to escrow before 23:59 UTC on Friday 2014-04-25
- All parties will wait for the escrow transaction to receive at least 4 confirmations
- MikeMike will pay the first ${redacted} of shipping on the first three packages.
- soniq will pay the next ${redacted} worth of shipping on the first three packages.
- MikeMike will then pay all remaining shipping costs.
- soniq will send {redacted} to an address supplied by MikeMike for delivery within 5 days of the funding of the escrow bitcoin address
- soniq will provide MikeMike a tracking number from the shipping company within 24 hours of the escrow being funded
- After receiving the {redacted}, MikeMike will authorize me to release escrow to any bitcoin address supplied by soniq
Disagreement about receipt of product:
- If any packages are received after Wednesday 2014-04-30, and if soniq is at fault for the delivery delay, then MikeMike will receive compensation from escrow equivalent to {redacted}, and soniq will receive the remaining portion of the escrow as authorized.
- If MikeMike does not receive a valid tracking number within 24 hours of funding the escrow, he can request that escrow is released back to him.
- If MikeMike does not receive {redacted} by 23:59 UTC Saturday 2014-05-03, he can request that escrow is released back to him
- If any such refund or compensation request is made, soniq will have 48 hours from when the request is sent to state an objection.
- If MikeMike refuses delivery or returns any of the product, soniq will receive compensation from escrow equivalent to {redacted} worth of bitcoins at the BitStamp exchange rate at the time the decision to refuse the equipment is made known, and MikeMike will receive the remaining portion of the escrow
- If any such compensation request is made, MikeMike will have 48 hours from when the request is sent to state an objection
- If there is no objection from either party, then the bitcoins in escrow will be released as indicated
- If there are any objections to the refund or compensation requests, the transaction will enter a phase of public conflict resolution
Purchaser fails to authorize release and disappears:
- If MikeMike does not confirm receipt of {redacted}, and does not request a refund within 10 days of soniq providing the tracking number, then soniq can request release of the escrow in MikeMike’s absence.
- If such a release request is made, MikeMike will have 48 hours from when the release request is made to state an objection
- If there is no objection from MikeMike, then the bitcoins in escrow will be released to any bitcoin address supplied by soniq
- If MikeMike does object to the release request, the transaction will enter a phase of public conflict resolution
If both parties are satisfied with the terms of the transaction as they currently stand, please send a message indicating such. If there are any corrections to my current understanding of the transaction, please let me know.
The escrow address is included in the signed escrow agreement below:
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA512
Escrow ID: 201404231415
The escrow address for the transaction beginning on 2014-04-23 between MikeMike (the bitcoin provider) and soniq (the bitcoin receiver) will be:
{redacted}
Please agree to any conditions (quantity, price, payment method, transaction fees, penalties, conflict resolution, etc) beforehand.
If possible, GPG sign your agreement to prevent any discrepancies later on. GPG signing is not a requirement, and any written exchange in the form of private messages or posts on bitcointalk.org, communication seen by me in IRC, or email is effective as a 'statement of condition'.
Please understand that I am doing this as a community service for users of bitcointalk, I am assuming the risk of holding the escrowed Bitcoins, and I am using my own time to facilitate this transaction. As such, if it does not represent a burden to do so, please consider sending a bitcoin gratuity to {redacted} (valid for this transaction only) after the satisfactory resolution of this transaction.
The fine print:
This Contract is solely generated for the purpose of facilitating the transaction between the bitcoin provider and the bitcoin reciever, identified by the pseudonyms used on bitcointalk.org
The escrow holder, Daniel Hamilton (pseudonym DannyHamilton), assumes and gives no liability or guarantees on the satisfaction of all parties involved, although he agrees to mediate and facilitate the deal to the fullest extent he is capable of. On the event that any problems arises, he will release the escrow to whichever party presents him with the most convincing proof and after an open discussion with others and the moderators of bitcointalk.org.
Neither party should fund the escrow address or provide anything of value to the counter-party until the terms of escrow release have been determined and agreed to by both parties. If no other conditions are received, the default conditions of the contract assume:
{redacted} bitcoins will be placed in escrow by the bitcoin provider. An additional {redacted} BTC will be placed in escrow by the bitcoin receiver. All parties will wait for at least 4 confirmations on the escrow transaction before the bitcoin receiver ships any equipment. The bitcoins will be released from escrow to the bitcoin receiver after the bitcoin provider informs the escrow holder that he has received delivery of the specified equipment in proper operating condition. If, 5 days or more after the funding of the escrow address, the bitcoin provider claims he has not yet received the equipment in advertised condition, and there is no objection from the bitcoin receiver, then escrow will be released back to the bitcoin provider. If, 5 days or more after the bitcoin receiver announces that the equipment has been sent, the bitcoin provider fails to acknowledge or deny receipt of the equipment, escrow will be released to the bitcoin receiver. The bitcoin provider will pay the shipping costs up to {redacted} per unit. The bitcoin receiver will pay any additional shipping costs up to {redacted} per unit. If shipping costs more than {redacted}, then the bitcoin provider will pay all remaining shipping costs. If, for any reason, the bitcoin provider backs out of the transaction, refuses delivery, or returns any products, the bitcoin provider will compensate the bitcoin receiver the equivalent of {redacted} worth of bitcoins at the BitStamp exchange rate at the time the decision not to accept delivery is announced. If, for any reason, the bitcoin receiver does not deliver the products, the bitcoin receiver will compensate the bitcoin provider for any costs incurred from any shipping charges not credited. To add, change, or remove the release conditions, both the bitcoin provider and bitcoin receiver must communicate their acceptance of the modified terms with the escrow holder.
BITCOIN RECEIVER PLEASE NOTICE:
___________________
The default terms of this contract are designed to protect the bitcoin provider against a fraudulent bitcoin receiver. The protections provided to the bitcoin receiver are minimal. Under the default conditions of this contract the only protection provided to the bitcoin receiver is the ability to refuse to provide anything of value until better conditions have been negotiated. If the bitcoin receiver delivers the product without first negotiating and confirming other conditions, there is an opportunity for the bitcoin provider to lie and claim that they never received the equipment or that it was non-functional on arrival. The burden of proof would then be on the bitcoin receiver to demonstrate that the bitcoin provider did indeed receive it and that it was working properly when it arrived.
The written acceptance by both parties (or the failure to reject) and the sending of bitcoins to the escrow address above constitutes the acceptance of the terms and conditions stated as well as acceptance of any mutually agreed escrow release conditions, and the activation of this contract.
The following contact information can be used if the bitcointalk website becomes unresponsive before the transaction is complete:
Daniel Hamilton
P.O. BOX {redacted}
{state redacted}, IL {zip code redacted}
{phone number redacted}
{email address redacted}
Thank you.
DannyHamilton (the escrow holder)
2014-04-23 14:15 CDT (UTC-5:00)
Escrow: {redacted} (valid for this transaction only)
Tips: {redacted} (valid for this transaction only)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
MikeMike & soniq have been notified of this thread with the following PM:
Quote
MikeMike & soniq,
It appears that you are unable to reach an agreement on the release of escrow. I have opened a thread in the Scam Accusations sub-forum for the purpose of public discussion on this matter. Discussion will continue in that thread until this matter is resolved. Please present any evidence that you are willing to share in support of your side of the dispute there. Please direct all further discussions on this matter to that thread.
If you want to keep something private (such as a shipping address) you can describe in the thread the type of information (such as "sending a link to the tracking information"), and then send the actual information to me via PM. I will then confirm in the thread that I have received the information described.
If in the course of the discussion you are able to come to an agreement, I will release escrow according to your agreement. If you are unable to come to an agreement on the release of escrow before 23:59 UTC on 2014-05-16, then I will make a decision and release escrow in as fair a way as I can.
You can find the discussion thread here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/public-discussion-escrow-dispute-soniq-mikemike-600805
- Danny Hamilton
It appears that you are unable to reach an agreement on the release of escrow. I have opened a thread in the Scam Accusations sub-forum for the purpose of public discussion on this matter. Discussion will continue in that thread until this matter is resolved. Please present any evidence that you are willing to share in support of your side of the dispute there. Please direct all further discussions on this matter to that thread.
If you want to keep something private (such as a shipping address) you can describe in the thread the type of information (such as "sending a link to the tracking information"), and then send the actual information to me via PM. I will then confirm in the thread that I have received the information described.
If in the course of the discussion you are able to come to an agreement, I will release escrow according to your agreement. If you are unable to come to an agreement on the release of escrow before 23:59 UTC on 2014-05-16, then I will make a decision and release escrow in as fair a way as I can.
You can find the discussion thread here:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/public-discussion-escrow-dispute-soniq-mikemike-600805
- Danny Hamilton
This thread exists as a public discussion to resolve an escrow dispute between MikeMike and soniq. Clearly they can't both be right since the claims they are making are opposites. This thread will be used to figure out to the best of my ability who is telling the truth, and to release escrow in as fair of a way as I can.
MikeMike claims:
This can be seen in the following comments taken from PM sent to me:
soniq claims:
This can be seen in the following comments taken from PM sent to me:
EDIT 1: I can confirm that the transaction funding the escrow address was sent before 2014-04-25 16:50 CDT and received the first confirmation prior to block 297692.
EDIT 2: As seen in later posts in this thread, on 2014-04-25 at 16:31 CDT soniq confirmed that he had received the labels and committed to sending a partial shipment on 2014-04-25 based on using the BTC balance due to MikeMike as partial payment for this transaction. Unless any other evidence comes to light, it would appear that soniq's claims of "payment and shipping labels were not sent on time" are not valid. It also appears that the claim of "not sure what the -redacted- BTC refund of balance due at beginning is about" may not be valid either.
EDIT 3: I have received a tracking link from MikeMike demonstrating that a package was returned to sender at the request of the sender. If this link is for this transaction, it would appear that soniq's claim that it "has been delivered" would be invalid.
Further details will be added (including relevant portions of the original escrow agreement) as I dig them out of my PM history. MikeMike and soniq have been asked to present here any evidence they have in support of their side of the dispute.
I'll do the best I can to avoid sharing personally identifying information (real names, addresses, phone numbers, etc). I'll also do what I can to prevent disclosure of what was being exchanged. I cannot prevent either party from choosing to disclose any of this information, and will not redact it from my posts once one of them has chosen to make the information public.
MikeMike claims:
- some equipment has not been delivered
- there was a balance due from soniq prior to the transaction
- soniq is at fault for late delivery
This can be seen in the following comments taken from PM sent to me:
As far as an Expected Delivery to -redacted- we still do not have that
-redacted- BTC: Refund of balance due at the beginning of the transaction
The Labels were sent on time.
The way in which you handled them is what caused the it to be late.
The way in which you handled them is what caused the it to be late.
soniq claims:
- all equipment has been delivered
- there was no balance due to MikeMike prior to the transaction
- he is not at fault for late delivery
This can be seen in the following comments taken from PM sent to me:
The {redacted} in enroute to an address Mike Mike specified that has been delivered
not sure what the -redacted- BTC refund of balance due at beginning is about
The payment and shipping labels were not sent on time
EDIT 1: I can confirm that the transaction funding the escrow address was sent before 2014-04-25 16:50 CDT and received the first confirmation prior to block 297692.
EDIT 2: As seen in later posts in this thread, on 2014-04-25 at 16:31 CDT soniq confirmed that he had received the labels and committed to sending a partial shipment on 2014-04-25 based on using the BTC balance due to MikeMike as partial payment for this transaction. Unless any other evidence comes to light, it would appear that soniq's claims of "payment and shipping labels were not sent on time" are not valid. It also appears that the claim of "not sure what the -redacted- BTC refund of balance due at beginning is about" may not be valid either.
EDIT 3: I have received a tracking link from MikeMike demonstrating that a package was returned to sender at the request of the sender. If this link is for this transaction, it would appear that soniq's claim that it "has been delivered" would be invalid.
Further details will be added (including relevant portions of the original escrow agreement) as I dig them out of my PM history. MikeMike and soniq have been asked to present here any evidence they have in support of their side of the dispute.
I'll do the best I can to avoid sharing personally identifying information (real names, addresses, phone numbers, etc). I'll also do what I can to prevent disclosure of what was being exchanged. I cannot prevent either party from choosing to disclose any of this information, and will not redact it from my posts once one of them has chosen to make the information public.
Jump to: