Topic: [Q] Selling bitcoins using PayPal - What's the risk? (Read 4360 times)

also, being at this topic, what could be your opinion on moneybookers?

ty

tnx for the usefull informations

This is very interesting and good to know.

I user PP to sell eve PLEX and my buyers always pay by gift, i do not ask them to they just do it as i have built up good trust with them.

but after reading this i may ask them to pay normaly from now on 

so, if left with no choice but to use Paypal either to sell or buy. What is the best route or scheme to do? Is there a certain amount that sets up alarms?I have btc that i have problem encashing due to my country has little btc support.

person that paid with paypal can claim as unauthorized transaction within 180 days of trading and win almost all the time.

I believe you are at risk for paypal charge-back in general for 180 days; 6 months. Gift, not gift, I do not think it matters. Maybe this is just a myth we spread in -otc but I believe it to be true, myself.

I can tell you that I have been questioned on a large-ish gift transaction, something to the effect of 28 days after the fact, by paypal. I responded and questioned their security practices and the issue slipped away...

Personal transaction -> Payment Owed (or the reverse) is usually considered good practice and above-board, but YMMV, especially if you are a business entity.

PP sucks. PP Monopoly! bitcoiners should boycott PP

the risk? Paypal shuts your account and forces you to "repay" the person you sent the coins to
from https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1176641

also
Onetime I bought Bitcoins for paypal (no risk to me) sometime later the money appeared back in my credit card - I had done nothing to start this.
when I contacted the person I bought from they told me they were forced to repay and close their account
I had Bitcoins and money AND I had done nothing to charge back.....
so whilst you might not, PayPal can do as they please - and innocent people lose out...

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1082472

yes ty

Thanks for the explanation man : )

The issue is PayPal rules are arbitrary and a scammer is going to know how to use them to his advantage is both directions.

For example if a noob pays by gift using a PayPal account with a balance he likely is screwed.  
So never pay by gift.  I would also point out that too sending or receiving too many gift payments can get your account frozen or cause you to lose the ability to make gift payments.
This has nothing to do with "scams" and everything to do with the fact that PayPal doesn't get paid on gift payments.

Oh so if sending by gifts can be reversed, than receiving by gifts must be safe right?
No absolutely not.  A scammer is going to be more than willing to pay by gift using:
a) a hacked/stolen PayPal Account -> auto reverse you lose
b) Claiming his account was hacked/stolen -> auto reverse you lose
c) a $0 balance PayPal account (where tx is funded in realtime by CC) -> charge back on CC -> reverse on PayPal you lose.

PayPal requires complete and absolute trust because it can be used to scam both ways.  A scammer is going to know all the ins and outs and the sucker isn't.  So even if it looks "safe" you probably can get burned.
For example FastCash4Bitcoins uses PayPal payouts but you shouldn't use our service unless you already trust us.  If you can trust us with your coins you can trust our PayPal payouts are legit too.

Sadly no matter how many times this explained people seem to get scammed.

TL/DR:
Paying by gift to an untrusted persons = dangerous.
Accepting payment by gift from an untrsuted person = dangerous.

Really? It can. They just have to tell pp that the account has been hacked or whatelse

If using gift would be safe then why everyone is not using it? Go ahead and try selling bitcoins and have buyer pay you with paypal via gift 

Wrong.

I used a bank account, as my PayPal acct. is devoid of funds.

Correct.  In fact paypal has reversed gifts just because a sender or receiver was using gift too many times.  Paypal gets no fee and knows that person is not getting that many gifts.  It is POSSIBLE, but it is not probable.  

Also a gift payment come from a hacked paypal account, and almost all of those payments will be reversed.  

If he paid using a credit card or bank account he can call them to bypass paypal, if he paid with paypal funds then yeah he's screwed. Also its not against Paypal terms of service for virtual goods they just do not have buyer nor seller protection with them, however they will favor with the buyer if there is something stated on the invoice saying "digital goods" or "intangible item"

Sure, but that's very, very stupid. Not to mention it's fraud.

He can, he just does not know how to. But I'm not going to help him because he's trying to defraud PayPal. PayPal did exactly what he tricked them into doing, and now he's trying to screw them for it.

look here

someone sent a PP gift payment for some bitcoins
and the bitcoin was never sent.
and now he cannot revers the payment

https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1172035

you can lie and say gift

as long as PP doesn't know that it can not be reversed.

no?

No gift was ever sent. In order to "send a gift" you must intend to transfer it to the recipient for no compensation whatsoever. Legally, no donative intent = no gift.

"A gift, in the law of property, is the voluntary transfer of property from one person (the donor or grantor) to another (the donee or grantee) without full valuable consideration. In order for a gift to be legally effective, the donor must have intended to give the gift to the donee (donative intent), and the gift must actually be delivered to and accepted by the donee."

Here we have a transfer that the recipient knew was not a gift.