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Topic: Question about forum finances (again, 2017) (Read 967 times)

legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 1722
I believe there was a mod in the india local sub that was removed from being a moderator after the exchange he worked for was hacked due to possible conflicts of interest. I believe MNW was a staff member around the time he was making offers to insure deposits of pirate40's ponzi. Also, xDeathwing was fired over a scam accusation.

IIRC there was a mod in the Portuguese (?) local board who had his account get hacked, and obviously he didn't get reinstated after that. MNW was a mod of the Korean local board, I don't remember if he got demodded for reneging on a bet or just trolling? I'm not sure if Diablo-D3 left of his own initiative or if he was demodded. And then there was Nefario.
copper member
Activity: 2996
Merit: 2374
I think lauda has been the only staff member to be 'let go',
I believe there was a mod in the india local sub that was removed from being a moderator after the exchange he worked for was hacked due to possible conflicts of interest. I believe MNW was a staff member around the time he was making offers to insure deposits of pirate40's ponzi. Also, xDeathwing was fired over a scam accusation.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 3060
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Thank you for posting the financial statements. It's interesting.
One question-
Why don't we count all the income+expense in BTC? Wouldn't it be fair if we had done so? All those fund were received in BTC certainly. I think it would be more interesting to get BTC value since we are calculating the financial statement of Bitcoin forum.

It's probably only in USD there because that's all the tax man cares about and for tax purposes the money would be logged at its dollar value at the time received. I'm sure theymos has the btc values as well though.

Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.

Oof. Who got fired?

---



Is this in regard to the new forum or the drop in payments to staff? I think lauda has been the only staff member to be 'let go', but there are several mods who had left or have been removed due to inactivity over the past few years (including a couple of Globals/Admins - BadBear, Salty, Grue to name a few.
full member
Activity: 574
Merit: 152
Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.

Oof. Who got fired?

---

$500k+ on epoctalk seems like a lot.

legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
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legendary
Activity: 3472
Merit: 1722
53% YoY drop in income is quite spectacular.
I wasn't even a forum member during the ICO season, but I guess the funding from their ads was quite relevant.

That, the bear market, and theymos also started being pickier with services he'd allow people to advertise.

"No ICOs[1], loggable mixers[2], banks, funds, or anything that a person can be said to "invest" in; I may very rarely make exceptions if you convince me that you are ultra legit, but don't count on it. Ads may be rejected for other reasons, and I may remove ads even after they are accepted.".
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.

Thanks.
legendary
Activity: 2268
Merit: 16328
Fully fledged Merit Cycler - Golden Feather 22-23
Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.
Thank you Theymos for the disclosure.
53% YoY drop in income is quite spectacular.
I wasn't even a forum member during the ICO season, but I guess the funding from their ads was quite relevant.
sr. member
Activity: 1372
Merit: 322
Thank you for posting the financial statements. It's interesting.
One question-
Why don't we count all the income+expense in BTC? Wouldn't it be fair if we had done so? All those fund were received in BTC certainly. I think it would be more interesting to get BTC value since we are calculating the financial statement of Bitcoin forum.
legendary
Activity: 2114
Merit: 1693
C.D.P.E.M
Thanks for the transparency
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
Code:
2017
Income: $996,494 + $6257 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $246,138
Expenses - Mods and others: $261,433
Expenses - Hosting etc: $49,726

2018
Income: $473,247 + $479 donations
Expenses - Forum software project: $272,250
Expenses - Mods and others: $204,547
Expenses - Hosting etc: $43,907

Tax is not included for 2017. Because bitcointalk.org is tax-wise a disregarded entity, it's difficult for me to calculate the tax costs attributable to forum activities. I'll do it some other day.
legendary
Activity: 1778
Merit: 1043
#Free market
Thanks for the reply theymos, I was just curious.
legendary
Activity: 2954
Merit: 3060
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December 29, 2017, 10:22:15 AM
#16
But I think that with increased income from ads and much bigger number of users, we need for more moderators. In my view, it's enough current moderators to be able to fight with spam.

I wouldn't be against more mods but a more pressing issue would be to distribute workload between current staff. We obviously need another admin to help with account recoveries etc but I've also suggested theymos assemble a group of the most active mods to be dedicated sig spammer mods and issuing temp and permabans etc because ICOs and the half-assed managers they employ obviously can't be trusted to run them.
legendary
Activity: 3234
Merit: 1375
Slava Ukraini!
December 29, 2017, 10:10:56 AM
#15
So, forum were running with loss in 2015, minimal profit in 2016, and now in 2017, income from ads skyrocket.
It's not surprise. Number of Bitcointalk users increased rapidly, following same trend as wesaw in exchanges, ICO's and etc. But I think that with increased income from ads and much bigger number of users, we need for more moderators. In my view, it's enough current moderators to be able to fight with spam.
And it's interesting, how much money still have to be spent and how many years it can take to finally release new forum software?
And another theorical question - if signature campaigns (especially ICO's bounty campaigns) would be banned, how it wouldaffect forum traffic and income from sold advertisement slots? I suspect that forum expenses would exceed income from ads again :/
Anyway, I remember reading somewhere that Bitcointalk still have millions $ in their reserves.
newbie
Activity: 18
Merit: 0
December 29, 2017, 05:57:13 AM
#14
Oh dear, don't want to do that job... basically working for free or even worse, you pay for it...

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed: How comes the decision to develop something new rather than use existing solution and customize?

Would be great if someone can give a short summery on that.

All of the existing solutions do not have the custom back end that is needed for the mods. That is my understanding of the main factor. The goal was to create a new open sourced software with a killer admin setup.


Thanks for clarification.

Noticed the special meta board for it, will check there for more details.
hero member
Activity: 1246
Merit: 588
December 29, 2017, 03:29:34 AM
#13
These numbers were just so amazing.  Since the profit skyrocketed this year can we like try to provide more funds for improving our system? I was not saying tho that the mods are not making any possible actions for it since there were funds given for the forum software development.
Quote
"Expenses - Forum software project: About $159,000"
I was just curious if what are the products created for spending $159,000.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
#SuperBowl50 #NFCchamps
December 29, 2017, 02:21:30 AM
#12
It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?

I posted an estimate like that a long time ago, but it was an estimate as of that time, not a guaranteed amount. The mod payments algorithm has never taken forum income into account whatsoever, and you can see that in 2015 and 2016 it was much higher than 25%.
I must have gotten that from older auction threads, such as round 165.

The increased-value reserve and massive 2017 income (which may well have been just a weird temporary trend) came pretty suddenly. [...] I also need to figure out ways of delegating more, since I am absolutely swamped as things are right now. Perhaps I could hire someone with a business degree or something who can act more like a proper CEO. Suggestions publicly or via PM are welcome, [...]
Most bitcoin related businesses saw huge surges in business activity, and pretty much all of them were unable to scale their operations, especially from a customer service/support perspective.

First and foremost, written procedures are needed to instruct moderators how to handle certain situations. The procedures do not necessarily need to be public (some, such as security related procedures certainly should not be public), and can be changed as necessary, even retroactively when appropriate.

There should be a moderator who is ultimately responsible for each individual sub (or group of subs). This moderator should have the authority to create rules within that sub (with certain limits). There could be other moderators that "report" to this moderator, and have full moderator privileges in SMF, but would be expected to follow the direction of the moderator in charge of that sub when moderating that sub. Any concerns about the moderation of that sub should be initially directed to the moderator ultimately responsible, either via PM, or the moderator should respond to meta threads created. There should be a moderator who acts as an escalation point for a group of subs, and if necessary, a second (higher in authority) escalation point for a larger group of subs. For example, moderator a would be responsible for reputation, moderator b would be responsible for scam accusations, moderator c would be responsible for trading discussion only, moderator d would be responsible for overseeing all of trading discussion, moderator e would be responsible for overseeing all of marketplace, and moderator f would be responsible for overseeing all of economy -- some of these can be consolidated as necessary (it could be moderator a is responsible for all of trading discussion, and moderator b oversees all of economy). After all levels of escalation have been pursued, the issue can then be discussed with a global moderator, and subsequently with an admin (or if having a global moderator would result in too many levels of management, it could go directly to an admin). If a PM is sent to an admin about an issue in reputation, and it is not clear the various escalations points have not attempted to address the issue, the admin can place the PM in a queue for the moderator responsible for reputation, who can either mark the PM as something they will personally respond to (after they respond to it), or as something they have already discussed with this person, at which point, it would go into the queue for the person who oversees all of trading discussion, and so on and so fourth.


In regards to things like password resets, various types of unban requests (for bans resulting from security incidents, breaking of rules, etc.), ban appeals, ban requests, etc., a certain subset of moderators should have read only access to information necessary to make a decision in regards to these types of requests, will create a report/checklist compiling information in an easy to read format, and submit the report/checklist to an admin who can more quickly make a decision verses having to do the original research themselves. An admin who can handle a ban appeal does not necessarily need to be able to handle a password reset, although they can if they are sufficiently trusted, and volume permitting -- the same is true for moderators who compile the reports/checklists. This is one area where the written procedures will be greatly beneficial.
administrator
Activity: 5222
Merit: 13032
December 29, 2017, 12:48:55 AM
#11
It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?

I posted an estimate like that a long time ago, but it was an estimate as of that time, not a guaranteed amount. The mod payments algorithm has never taken forum income into account whatsoever, and you can see that in 2015 and 2016 it was much higher than 25%.

The increased-value reserve and massive 2017 income (which may well have been just a weird temporary trend) came pretty suddenly. I'm not sure yet how best to handle it. I've been thinking of maybe allocating some of the money toward creating a registered non-profit which would have a similar mission as the forum, but would focus more on things like free-speech legal battles and the development of true decentralized forum software. I also need to figure out ways of delegating more, since I am absolutely swamped as things are right now. Perhaps I could hire someone with a business degree or something who can act more like a proper CEO. Suggestions publicly or via PM are welcome, but please focus more on structural improvements rather than lists of things to throw money at. This has already been the case to a large extent, but especially now, the limiting factor is mostly time/people/skill/trust rather than money.
full member
Activity: 132
Merit: 103
December 28, 2017, 11:46:18 PM
#10
I just have two simple questions to ask: Why would i be interested about forum finances? What's in there for me/us?
Sorry if it's obvious.
hero member
Activity: 675
Merit: 502
#SuperBowl50 #NFCchamps
December 28, 2017, 11:44:58 PM
#9
It seems that income skyrocketed in 2017, but mod payments did not keep up. My understanding is that mod payments should be 25% of income. What happened?
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