Paypal release the held funds and TheBitMan actually paid everyone back before it went to court.
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/thebitmint-buy-bitcoins-with-paypal-site-closed-83679
Topic: RandomQ VS TheBitMan Small Claims Court State of New York (Read 4665 times)
Did this go through the court? Is this the first completed Bitcoin lawsuit?
I have been Paid for the Full Amount that paypal Reversed from my Account.
Congrats! Thanks for the free advice. Bitcoin could use some good legal minds.
Are you a lawyer?
Working on it. I recently finished law school and took the bar in CA. I am wasting the results
Are you a lawyer?
+1. Do you take BTC for legal advice?
Are you a lawyer?
So.... you're going to try suing a minor for breech of contract? I'm pretty sure you can't add his parents to a claim, because the contract wasn't valid in the first place.
IANAL, either, though, so maybe someone will clear this up for me. I've never really understand why you could sue a minor for breaking your window, but not for failing to fulfill a contractual obligation -- or if this could even be considered a contract since it was an "immediate" transaction. Pretty sure minors couldn't get away with taking goods from a store and not paying, but I guess that'd be a more clear-cut case of theft.
Oh, well - interested to see what comes of this. Shitty situation for everyone - sorry you both are going through this.
IANAL, either, though, so maybe someone will clear this up for me. I've never really understand why you could sue a minor for breaking your window, but not for failing to fulfill a contractual obligation -- or if this could even be considered a contract since it was an "immediate" transaction. Pretty sure minors couldn't get away with taking goods from a store and not paying, but I guess that'd be a more clear-cut case of theft.
Oh, well - interested to see what comes of this. Shitty situation for everyone - sorry you both are going through this.
Option 1
What if an adult makes a contract with a minor because the minor claims to be over eighteen?
If a minor lies about his or her age when signing a contract, and the other person had good reasons to believe that the minor was capable of making a contract, the minor will not be allowed to cancel the contract.
Option 2
If the minor knowingly makes a false representation about his age for the purpose of acquiring goods or services then claiming the defense of infancy, the minor could be committing the crime of theft by deception. While minors may void contracts they can still be charged with a crime if their intent is criminal in nature.
Paypal accounts require you to be 18 years old.
2.1 Eligibility. To be eligible to use the PayPal Services, you must be at least 18 years old and a resident of the United States or one of the countries listed on the PayPal WorldWide page. This Agreement applies only to Users who are residents of the United States. If you are a resident of another country, you may access the agreement that applies to you from our website in your country.
TheBitman Lied about his Age by creating a Paypal account, when using that account he commited fraud by lying about his age.
If the small claims case gets throw out, I will proceed with a criminal compliant on fraud charges.
You could tell PayPal he lied about his age, which is a ToS violation, so it might be even more difficult for BitMan to recover funds from them, but that sounds counter-productive. It seems like a tragedy to press criminal charges against someone because they had PayPal funds frozen and didn't have reserve funds to cover the problem. I strongly suggest he tells his parents, now, as I believe that was previously only being considered.
I'll check with some other lenders and see if we can get this situation resolved amicably for everyone. Please do not press criminal charges against him...
ETA: Hrm. After talking with someone else... I take back everything I've read in this thread, assuming the BitMan is not a minor. If BitMan is a minor, I'd be willing to go splitsies on a notarized, co-signed, secured loan to him.
Minors are allowed to disaffirm and, in effect, to walk away from most of the contracts they enter. This, of course, is one of the reasons merchants usually refuse to enter contracts with minors unless a parent or other financially responsible adult co-signs. Contracts that a minor can disaffirm are voidable, meaning they can be invalidated by choice. A voidable contract, however, is valid and enforceable unless and until it is canceled.
If the minor still has what he received from the other party, he must return it to the other party upon seeking to avoid the contract. If he does not return the property in such a situation, he cannot avoid the contract. If the minor cannot return what he has received pursuant to the contract because it has been spent, damaged or destroyed, he still can avoid the contract. He can avoid the contract and is only required to return that part of the consideration he still has. Even if he has nothing left, or what he has is damaged property, he still can avoid the contract.
Helen, age 17, wanted to buy a motorcycle. She did not have the money to pay cash but persuaded the dealer to sell a cycle to her on credit. The dealer did so partly because Helen said that she was 22 and showed the dealer an identification card that falsely stated her age as 22. Helen drove the motorcycle away. A few days later, she damaged it and then returned it to the dealer and stated that she avoided the contract because she was a minor. The dealer said that she could not do so because (a) she had misrepresented her age and (b) the motorcycle was damaged. Can she avoid the contract? Yes. In a state that follows the common law rule, neither the damage to the property nor Helen’s misrepresentation of her age will prevent her from avoiding the contract. Some states would hold that because of the misrepresentation of age, Helen must pay for the damage that she has done, but she can avoid the contract. A few states would hold that Helen cannot avoid the contract because she misrepresented her age.
Looks like we might get paid in full sometime this weekend
And this is why you never use pay-pal.
QFT I don't think I will touch PayPal with a 50 foot pole after reading this.
Well since I received a payment on Saturday, And do to the request of BCB.
I have postponed the Small Claims Court.
But if this debt gets sent to collections(PayPal), I will file the small claims.
Currently this is just a debt to paypal they have kept it locally and not sold it to an outside collection company.
Why don't you just get in contact with the parents? I have postponed the Small Claims Court.
But if this debt gets sent to collections(PayPal), I will file the small claims.
Currently this is just a debt to paypal they have kept it locally and not sold it to an outside collection company.
Well since I received a payment on Saturday, And do to the request of BCB.
I have postponed the Small Claims Court.
But if this debt gets sent to collections(PayPal), I will file the small claims.
Currently this is just a debt to paypal they have kept it locally and not sold it to an outside collection company.
I have postponed the Small Claims Court.
But if this debt gets sent to collections(PayPal), I will file the small claims.
Currently this is just a debt to paypal they have kept it locally and not sold it to an outside collection company.
If you'd taken it to Judge Judy you would have got free publicity for Bitcoin as well as your money back.
+1. But then she would say something stupid like "What the fuck is Bitcoin? Nobody cares about this shit. Case dismissed."
If you'd taken it to Judge Judy you would have got free publicity for Bitcoin as well as your money back.
Obviously onlooking this situation from both perspectives, I wouldn't like to be in the situation of the "kid" (if he is under 18) having to tell his parents and it would be very embarrassing and I imagine he would be ashamed of it.
However, he did defraud the OP out of a large sum of money.
I think in this situation the OP does deserve to win and the kid to go punished for his actions.
Just my 2 cents.
However, he did defraud the OP out of a large sum of money.
I think in this situation the OP does deserve to win and the kid to go punished for his actions.
Just my 2 cents.
And this is why you never use pay-pal.
No mercy ! Let the kid bleed for his actions. The earlier he learns this lessons the better for him.
ETA: Hrm. After talking with someone else... I take back everything I've read in this thread, assuming the BitMan is not a minor. If BitMan is a minor, I'd be willing to go splitsies on a notarized, co-signed, secured loan to him.
Kluge,
Have you been following this thread:
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/thebitmint-buy-bitcoins-with-paypal-site-closed-83679
A number or Board Members have been bending over backwards to help this "kid" (if he is indeed under 18) out. Two lenders passed on a loan with very favorable terms because the TheBitMan would not agree to some of their verification terms. It was only after serious talk of a small claims that he has even agreed to make any payment. And still no one has yet to see any funds back.
Waiting....
What Does it Mean when Somebody Commits a Fraud or Misrepresentation in Creating the Contract?
In general, a party engages in fraud when he or she misrepresents a material fact to induce another party to act or refrain from acting towards formation of a contract. Persons charging other with fraud must prove that the person making the representation knew or should have known that it was false, that he or she intended for the other party to rely on it, and that the party did in fact rely on it, resulting in damages.
If i had known that he lied about his age to get a paypal account, I would not have done any business with him.
I knew that you had to be over 18 to have a paypal account, therefor he misrepresented himself as being over 18 to anyone he did business with.
In general, a party engages in fraud when he or she misrepresents a material fact to induce another party to act or refrain from acting towards formation of a contract. Persons charging other with fraud must prove that the person making the representation knew or should have known that it was false, that he or she intended for the other party to rely on it, and that the party did in fact rely on it, resulting in damages.
If i had known that he lied about his age to get a paypal account, I would not have done any business with him.
I knew that you had to be over 18 to have a paypal account, therefor he misrepresented himself as being over 18 to anyone he did business with.
Have fun proving intent.
The perpetrator's intent to deceive is usually the hardest element of a fraud to prove. The following are examples which have been used to prove an intent to deceive:
Admissions
Alteration of documents
Concealment of evidence
Confessions
Destruction of evidence
False statements (lies)
Obstruction of justice
Pattern of conduct (repetition of behavior)
Personal gain
Testimony of a co-conspirator
Did he brag about the money his was making on a public place that keeps records IE. Twitter
He made a false statement to paypal about his age, otherwise he wouldn't be able to do any of this
I'm not sure yet how much money "TheBitMan" made but he was selling BTC for $7-10 when the price was ~$5. so that would be personal gain
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