Re: Bitcoin block times | Bitcointalksearch.org

Este Nuno

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amarha

Quote from: ranochigo on August 04, 2014, 05:59:43 AM

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 04, 2014, 05:33:21 AM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 03, 2014, 03:17:32 PM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

How is it not a real problem? 10 minute blocks are one of the problems to be solved in Bitcoin. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people thinking of solutions.

It's clearly a problem. The question is how big of a problem is it? Is it enough to slow down adoption? Will there be solutions found or implemented? Or is it just a minor annoyance that doesn't matter in the modern financial world?

the people thinking of and trying solutions is exactly why it's not a "real" problem. key word there - real. it's an issue that's being actively solved and in my personal experience hasn't been an issue at all, honestly. and i've spent a lot of coin... bought giftcards via the gyft app regularly and get them instantly, without waiting for confirms, for example.

My experience has been quite a bit different. Sure there have been many easy transactions where my money was accepted instantly or near instantly. But I've lost count of how many 20 minute-1 hour++ delays I've had to sit at the computer watching blockchain.info waiting for the next block or two.

There are POS which can accept instant payments. They have methods to check and migrate double spending attacks. For example connecting to a well connected node, a typical double spend attempt and be detected within minutes. Also, you can have third party wallet services which helps you to hold your BTC and you can do offline transactions to the merchants through that service. For example Coinbase.

Yes, when I buy something from a service that uses Coinbase or BitPay the transaction is fine. But otherwise it's generally not a great experience.

bctmixpot

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Ok so its the fastest way to send any amount of money anywhere in the world and with a very low fee, but you can't actually buy as much things with btc as you can with fiat, and when you are converting btc to fiat thats where the fees will be! AND you are losing money as the btc price drops while you are waiting for your sell order to fill..

Not as ideal as they make it out to be..

ranochigo

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Quote from: Este Nuno on August 04, 2014, 05:33:21 AM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 03, 2014, 03:17:32 PM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

How is it not a real problem? 10 minute blocks are one of the problems to be solved in Bitcoin. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people thinking of solutions.

It's clearly a problem. The question is how big of a problem is it? Is it enough to slow down adoption? Will there be solutions found or implemented? Or is it just a minor annoyance that doesn't matter in the modern financial world?

the people thinking of and trying solutions is exactly why it's not a "real" problem. key word there - real. it's an issue that's being actively solved and in my personal experience hasn't been an issue at all, honestly. and i've spent a lot of coin... bought giftcards via the gyft app regularly and get them instantly, without waiting for confirms, for example.

My experience has been quite a bit different. Sure there have been many easy transactions where my money was accepted instantly or near instantly. But I've lost count of how many 20 minute-1 hour++ delays I've had to sit at the computer watching blockchain.info waiting for the next block or two.

There are POS which can accept instant payments. They have methods to check and migrate double spending attacks. For example connecting to a well connected node, a typical double spend attempt and be detected within minutes. Also, you can have third party wallet services which helps you to hold your BTC and you can do ~~offline~~ offchain transactions to the merchants through that service. For example Coinbase.

Este Nuno

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amarha

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 03:27:40 PM

Quote from: Este Nuno on August 03, 2014, 03:17:32 PM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

How is it not a real problem? 10 minute blocks are one of the problems to be solved in Bitcoin. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people thinking of solutions.

It's clearly a problem. The question is how big of a problem is it? Is it enough to slow down adoption? Will there be solutions found or implemented? Or is it just a minor annoyance that doesn't matter in the modern financial world?

the people thinking of and trying solutions is exactly why it's not a "real" problem. key word there - real. it's an issue that's being actively solved and in my personal experience hasn't been an issue at all, honestly. and i've spent a lot of coin... bought giftcards via the gyft app regularly and get them instantly, without waiting for confirms, for example.

My experience has been quite a bit different. Sure there have been many easy transactions where my money was accepted instantly or near instantly. But I've lost count of how many 20 minute-1 hour++ delays I've had to sit at the computer watching blockchain.info waiting for the next block or two.

TwinWinNerD

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CEO Bitpanda.com

This is called variance and it is a part of bitcoin, you can't change that. (Without chnging the POW algorythm to something different)

oldbute

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Quote from: shorena on August 03, 2014, 12:57:51 PM

I think 10 minutes is already too long to have to wait. One hour, that would be an awful long nervous time waiting.

I learned that with zero transaction fees the Bitcoin miners may not include the transaction at all! What happens then when using zero confirmations? Let's say that I buy a coffee at Starbucks with bitcoins and they use 0-confirmations, and I set the transaction fee to zero. Then I will get the coffee for free since no miner will include the transaction in the block chain. Grin

I think their bitcoin software could reject your payment using the mentioned 0 confirmation probability. It would see there was no fee and not accept it as valid payment. If it did happen to get confirmed then the payment would need to be return somehow back to your address.

arklan

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Quote from: Este Nuno on August 03, 2014, 03:17:32 PM

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

How is it not a real problem? 10 minute blocks are one of the problems to be solved in Bitcoin. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people thinking of solutions.

It's clearly a problem. The question is how big of a problem is it? Is it enough to slow down adoption? Will there be solutions found or implemented? Or is it just a minor annoyance that doesn't matter in the modern financial world?

the people thinking of and trying solutions is exactly why it's not a "real" problem. key word there - real. it's an issue that's being actively solved and in my personal experience hasn't been an issue at all, honestly. and i've spent a lot of coin... bought giftcards via the gyft app regularly and get them instantly, without waiting for confirms, for example.

Este Nuno

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amarha

Quote from: arklan on August 03, 2014, 12:03:06 PM

yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

How is it not a real problem? 10 minute blocks are one of the problems to be solved in Bitcoin. If it wasn't a problem there wouldn't be so many people thinking of solutions.

It's clearly a problem. The question is how big of a problem is it? Is it enough to slow down adoption? Will there be solutions found or implemented? Or is it just a minor annoyance that doesn't matter in the modern financial world?

Anders

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Quote from: shorena on August 03, 2014, 03:00:19 PM

Quote from: Anders on August 03, 2014, 02:37:21 PM

Quote from: shorena on August 03, 2014, 12:57:51 PM

Does it? I had one "stuck" there and I didnt even notice.

I think 10 minutes is already too long to have to wait. One hour, that would be an awful long nervous time waiting.

I learned that with zero transaction fees the Bitcoin miners may not include the transaction at all! What happens then when using zero confirmations? Let's say that I buy a coffee at Starbucks with bitcoins and they use 0-confirmations, and I set the transaction fee to zero. Then I will get the coffee for free since no miner will include the transaction in the block chain. Grin

Stores operate with a risk anyway. The CreditCard you use could be stolen etc. Its easy to make a fee mandatory if you want coffee. Also: why would you use bitcoin to pay for coffee, yet it goes "to da moon" ?

I never understood this one coin fits all mentality. Maybe bitcoin will not be used for everyday payment, maybe it will replace gold as a store of value. Maybe it will mainly be used for international payments and thus for digital goods.
Also as it has allready been mentioned: you could just load your coffeestorecard with 0.005 BTC and get your 500 coffees with the card, etc. pp.

I read something about micropayment channels for Bitcoin. That could do the trick for shopping. And for bitcoin trading/investments, having to wait one hour like in worst case and 10 minutes on average is acceptable.

shorena

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No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: Anders on August 03, 2014, 02:37:21 PM

Quote from: shorena on August 03, 2014, 12:57:51 PM

Does it? I had one "stuck" there and I didnt even notice.

I think 10 minutes is already too long to have to wait. One hour, that would be an awful long nervous time waiting.

I learned that with zero transaction fees the Bitcoin miners may not include the transaction at all! What happens then when using zero confirmations? Let's say that I buy a coffee at Starbucks with bitcoins and they use 0-confirmations, and I set the transaction fee to zero. Then I will get the coffee for free since no miner will include the transaction in the block chain. Grin

Stores operate with a risk anyway. The CreditCard you use could be stolen etc. Its easy to make a fee mandatory if you want coffee. Also: why would you use bitcoin to pay for coffee, yet it goes "to da moon" ?

I never understood this one coin fits all mentality. Maybe bitcoin will not be used for everyday payment, maybe it will replace gold as a store of value. Maybe it will mainly be used for international payments and thus for digital goods.
Also as it has allready been mentioned: you could just load your coffeestorecard with 0.005 BTC and get your 500 coffees with the card, etc. pp.

tss

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different day same post. same responses.. dont like it anymore.. i will help you liquidate your crappy coin.

beetcoin

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and this is why it's crazy to think that bitcoin will one day supplant paper currency. it's just not going to happen. this is only one of the reasons among many.

Anders

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Quote from: shorena on August 03, 2014, 12:57:51 PM

Quote from: Anders on August 03, 2014, 09:00:14 AM

Variance? Sounds suspicious. Like the search space isn't uniformly distributed enough. An average of 10 minutes can mean little variance or huge variance. Too much variance and it becomes difficult to rely on transaction times. If a transaction can take an hour sometimes, then that sucks.

Does it? I had one "stuck" there and I didnt even notice.

I think 10 minutes is already too long to have to wait. One hour, that would be an awful long nervous time waiting.

I learned that with zero transaction fees the Bitcoin miners may not include the transaction at all! What happens then when using zero confirmations? Let's say that I buy a coffee at Starbucks with bitcoins and they use 0-confirmations, and I set the transaction fee to zero. Then I will get the coffee for free since no miner will include the transaction in the block chain. Grin

shorena

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No I dont escrow anymore.

Quote from: Anders on August 03, 2014, 09:00:14 AM

Variance? Sounds suspicious. Like the search space isn't uniformly distributed enough. An average of 10 minutes can mean little variance or huge variance. Too much variance and it becomes difficult to rely on transaction times. If a transaction can take an hour sometimes, then that sucks.

Does it? I had one "stuck" there and I didnt even notice.

Quote from: ?? on ??

Quote from: farlack on August 03, 2014, 10:15:31 AM

Oh no how will bitcoin survive in the real world it takes 30 minutes to send money.

Banks only take 5760 minutes....

Winner.

Within the same country maybe. International money transfer takes even longer.

Quote

The funds transfer will take anywhere between a few hours to 5 business days.

Lets not talk about the fees

Quote

International wire transfers from the United States can cost anywhere from $20 to $50 (12 to 31 pounds, 14 to 36 euros). In 2011, the cost for a wire transfer from the UK at HSBC was 13 pounds ($21, 15 euros).

http://www.wikihow.com/Make-an-International-Wire-Transfer

arklan

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yea, as others have said better then i could, this is not a real problem.

though it sure will be nice when (hopefully) difficulty levels out somewhat...

ixne

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There's nothing magical about credit or debt cards - in the former case someone is vouching that you're good for the money in the future, in the latter someone is confirming that you have the funds already.

There's also no intrinsic need to use fiat for this sort of transaction. It is irrelevant whether the medium used is USD, bitcoin, or seashells, as long as the merchant and bank both work in that medium. At least with bitcoin you have the option of cutting out the middleman entirely.

Comparing credit cards to bitcoin is pointless, because the two are entirely different (and not at all mutually exclusive).

Anders

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Something like this can be used for smaller transactions:

"... any Bitcoin transaction can be accepted with zero confirmations with a mathematically derived confidence level some refer to as “Transaction Confidence.” ... Users have reported that the transaction confidence percentage reaches the high 90′s within seconds." -- http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/news/the-mathematically-secure-way-to-accept-zero-confirmation-transactions/2014/02/13

farlack

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Oh no how will bitcoin survive in the real world it takes 30 minutes to send money.

Banks only take 5760 minutes....

Anders

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I found this:

"In practice there is a sizeable randomness in how long it takes to validate a block – sometimes a new block is validated in just a minute or two, other times it may take 20 minutes or even longer. It’s straightforward to modify the Bitcoin protocol so that the time to validation is much more sharply peaked around ten minutes. Instead of solving a single puzzle, we can require that multiple puzzles be solved; with some careful design it is possible to considerably reduce the variance in the time to validate a block of transactions." -- http://www.michaelnielsen.org/ddi/how-the-bitcoin-protocol-actually-works/

Anders

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Variance? Sounds suspicious. Like the search space isn't uniformly distributed enough. An average of 10 minutes can mean little variance or huge variance. Too much variance and it becomes difficult to rely on transaction times. If a transaction can take an hour sometimes, then that sucks.

Topic: Re: Bitcoin block times (Read 15106 times)