Topic: Re: Proof of stake instead of proof of work (Read 6917 times)

What if a PoS/PoW hybrid system? Let say PoS and PoW blocks have to occur alternatively?

Exactly. The interest is no interest at all. Because the supply of coins does not increase.

The current financial system has no limit in printing.

A POS cryptocoin has a given "interest" enforced by protocol. If this "interest" is there only for mechanically securing the network, it is a trustworthy efficient system.

That's an illusion. PoS coins have no more an oligopoly than PoW coins. You think mining 0.1 LTC per day via PoW is worth anything? Spending $300 on a GPU to mine versus spending $300 on a PoS coin itself... I'd say the PoS coin actually redistributes itself better than the PoW coin.

Well, unless you're NXT of course. Then I agree with you.

I really like PoS, but I feel it could use a few tweaks to become "perfect" still.

Sad, is it not?

Better ideas?

Isn't the current financial system sort of PoS -- the more you own, the more you earn?

Those on the top of the pyramids will make sure the lower class will never have a chance.

But the cost of mining is also very low. As long as the interest pays for the mining costs, it's good.

People have got used to PoW mining as a get-rich-quick scheme. People mine Bitcoin who have no real interest in the currency. They sell their block-reward coins for fiat. PoS isn't like that. As a get-rich-quick scheme, it is indeed shit. The purpose of mining is not to make money, but to help secure the money you've made. (Although since some interest is paid, you might as well have it as not.)

PoI. What is that exactly? (Besides from Proof of Importance)

I believe PoS is a work in progress,  but it seems to me that very low interest is important.  There needs to be incentive to keep wallets open and staking,  you will get more total compounding interest if it is open all the time in a coin like Blackcoin.   So there needs to be incentive to stake.  But too much interest will mimic the same inflation as PoW and I think lower levels of inflation are one of POS's biggest benefits. 

Even if Peercoin gives you no "interest" wouldn't you own some just for its security against vulnerability of a pure POW coin? Artificially high POS rate is just inflation that pushes down the exchange rate.

I have hold my PPC for more than half year, but may I say POS=Proof of Shit?

The interest is very low, one can rarely get the interest without massive PPC's.

Interesting point of view. Though I suspect a lot of this discussion will shift to POI when it will come out.

Good point.

Centralization of mining could be a small concern , but that is more of a security issue
than an economic issue.  Pool participants are still rewarded.

Depend on system 1% interest rate rewards all equally.
POS have pain in later distribution need more PR to expand than POW.
But current centralization of BTC mining have same problems with distribution.

Generally to hold value are better POS coins with active community than any POW BTC clone
with dumping miner farms.

You have good points.  But after talking with smart people in other threads I'm not so sure a pure Pos coin would be secure, as it suffers from the infamous "nothing at stake" attack vector. 

Also, is Pos as fair as Pow?  Both cost money to acquire initial wealth, but Pos keeps rewarding owners, so the rich get richer. 

When I examine PoW, it just looks like an inefficient, gate keeping method, long way about distributing coins.  (basically, like a really poorly designed PoS)   WIth PoS, I spend money and I am guaranteed coins.  With PoW I spend money to buy a miner and electricity and am guaranteed coins.  The reason the miners buy the miners and electricity is just to get the coins.  Why not just spend the money directly to get the coins with PoS?  A thing with mining is that it is a gate keeping policy.  Only people with high enough tech skills and are friends with the devs get the coins.  This leads to skewed and unfair distributions.  With PoS the devs advertise and advertise for very long times to get as many people in for the IPO.  This is a much more egalitarian way of distributing the coins.  Is it fair?  No, it isn't, but it is much more fair that PoW.  Anybody can spend any amount with PoS from $5 to $50,000 to enter the game, but with PoW a person needs serious resources and know how.  It isn't 2010 and people aren't using their notebooks anymore. 

On top of that all that "work" that is being done in "POW" is not really all going on to secure the network as people like to so often say.  It is in fact busy work that is just ultimately wasted energy and computing power for every single miner involved but the one that won the block.  The miners are not working relentlessly to process transactions, in fact many of them refuse to process transactions!!!  What kind of financial system is designed in a way that it is actually not in the interest of the people maintaining a financial network to not process financial transactions? 

With PoS like NXT, a forgers whole computing power is gone towards processing transactions and the only reward is the fees, so the forgers are motivated to process as many transactions as they can.  Sounds like a pretty efficient system to me. 

One system the maintainers don't want to process transactions, and the other system the maintainers do...... Hmmmmm, which one is better?

So to me it is a better way of distributing coins and a better way of stabilizing the network.  And oh yeah, the 2nd gen PoS coins are adding function after function and service after service on top of their  networks.

PoW was a revolutionary idea.  +1 to Satoshi coming up with it.  Because of it, he showed that yes, crypto could indeed be real and could indeed work.  He taught us all about a new kind of value.  But now that we know that, we need a much better system that works towards the same end.  If Satoshi would have just released PoS at the start, nobody would have been interested.  It was in the mining in the early days that bitcoin was cool.  Mining made it fun and interesting.  The early days are gone.  Many years have passed.  It is time for crypto to grow up and become a quick, efficient, safe, and easy way to transfer value.  PoS gives our community that. 

Mining is so 2012-2013

How long should the issuance period last? In other words, if you were to create a PoW/PoS coin, when would it stop issuing new coins?

so this is just merged mining, eg with IXC and others in BTC. No problem here.



no merged mining does this without extra hash. The hash for BTC will always work for a lower difficulty.

Where does this concept of PoS being less 'fair' come from?   Or the whole rich get richer thing?!    I would really like someone to break this down for me.

Bitcoin vs Blackcoin

You can buy them both directly on exchanges
You can still mine bitcoin directly, However it requires massive investment in specialized hardware to hope of ROI, (massive investment)
You can obviously indirectly mine Blackcoin from exchanges with numerous mining platforms not just specialized mining hardware, creating a immensely lower point of entry as a function of mining cost vs Blackcoin reward against market cap.    While this is a add-on to blackcoin itself, not part of its codebase (its no longer PoW mineable) It is the current state of reality in crypto today and likely for as long as Blackcoin commands attention.   If all other altcoins vanished miners would still mine BTC directly to sell for blackcoin with greatly dimished returns.  But possibly still greater gain in BC against market cap, than with BTC vs marketcap.

So, allowing the blackcoin multipools into the equation is leaps and bounds cheaper and easier to get blackcoin with your mining hardware than it is BTC.

Whew, hope you followed!

Now...
Bitcoin mints at 3600 BTC perday,  At current market cap that is about 2.3 MILLION dollars of supply creating constant sell pressure in a agnostic market.   Blackcoin mints at 1% interest per year.    If Blackcoin had
the same 8.5B usd market cap BTC does, that would be around 230,000 THOUSAND dollars of new supply created daily.  Roughly ten times less depreciation if there the market is stagnant in-regards to demand.

This means that you are in a race to the bottom with PoW, unless you are standing at the very top of the mining/minting game.

AND those new coins ONLY go to the miners that can keep up with current tech and price of mining.   Whereas if you hold any amount of BlackCoin that 1% is paid to you.  Not a big mining farm, but you.



Why is PoW more fair?!?!   PoW is the epitome of rich get richer,   Previous poster was correct,  PoW  TAXES the holders that can't mine if you factor in that many mined coins will be insta-dumped soon as mature. Gotta pay for those million dollar mining farms after all.