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Topic: Reason why MtGox can go to 0 - without arbirage opportunity with Bitstamp - page 2. (Read 5622 times)

full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
exactly, and how low must goxBTC drop for gox to cover their short? can this be done before the exchange gets shut down? if yes, then buy goxBTC! if no then sell! game of chicken.. kinda like merger arbitrage, post announcement.

Time will tell. All I was trying to explain was that exchange rate going down is helping Gox. Smiley
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
but there are not enough real BTCs on their own exchanges. doesn't matter how low the price drops, if they don't have enough BTCs to cover the total clients BTC deposits, they will have to buy externally. nobody is depositing BTCs into gox to sell at 250. the only way they get more BTCs is to buy externally.  

What do you mean by "there are not enough real BTC on their own exchange"? Worst case, they have to come up with BTC equal to the sum of all BTC balances of their customers accounts. They can reduce these BTC balances by using their fiat on their exchange to buy BTC.

exactly, and how low must goxBTC drop for gox to cover their short? can this be done before the exchange gets shut down? if yes, then buy goxBTC! if no then sell! game of chicken.. kinda like merger arbitrage, post announcement.
member
Activity: 74
Merit: 10

the assumption was that goxBTC is fungible with BTC, otherwise its just paperBTC. In fact, before this incident goxBTC was $100 above bitstampBTC, because goxUSD was impossible to withdraw and worth less than bitstampUSD.

Well, obviously we're in agreement there because it's almost exactly what I put in my post.  I also agree that people clearly currently want to be in GoxFiat rather than GoxBTC

So what are we not agreeing about?

  • As MtGox BTCs price drops relative to Bitstamp BTC, more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn on MtGox, and the cost to MtGox to make customers whole also goes up


They won't be withdrawn though, as the only people who can currently "withdraw" BTC from MtGox are MtGox themselves.  Gox actually opening up BTC withdrawals again should see a large price jump on their exchange. 

I'm not saying that Gox can get out of any position by using an external exchange.  I'm saying that if Gox purchase 1 GoxBTC on their own exchange then they now owe $200 instead of 1BTC, so they've clearly reduced their overall debt (assuming a you consider BTC and fiat liabilities to be equally important, certainly debatable)

maybe im wrong regarding "more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn". but if gox is short BTCs, you would rather own goxUSD, but there will be some low were youd rather hold the goxBTC then sell for huge USD loss. this is what the market is currently doing, price discovery, at what price would you rather hold.

that depends on how many btcs were stolen.


Again we're (mostly) in agreement.  I think there's just confusion caused by your somewhat ambiguous OP wrt "Reason why MtGox can go to 0 - without arbirage opportunity with Bitstamp" and 
Quote
why the "no arbitrage theory" is not broken
Perhaps you were just aiming to explain why the BTC price was dropping on Gox, which isn't quite the same as it going to zero (zero as in no activity on the exchange?  zero as in they enter liquidation and end up paying out a percentage of the fiat debts but zero on the BTC?)  I also don't know what the "no arbitrage theory" is.

In either case, I would have expected there to have been other threads explaining the price on Gox for those that require it.  It's been going on for days. 
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com

the assumption was that goxBTC is fungible with BTC, otherwise its just paperBTC. In fact, before this incident goxBTC was $100 above bitstampBTC, because goxUSD was impossible to withdraw and worth less than bitstampUSD.

Well, obviously we're in agreement there because it's almost exactly what I put in my post.  I also agree that people clearly currently want to be in GoxFiat rather than GoxBTC

So what are we not agreeing about?

  • As MtGox BTCs price drops relative to Bitstamp BTC, more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn on MtGox, and the cost to MtGox to make customers whole also goes up


They won't be withdrawn though, as the only people who can currently "withdraw" BTC from MtGox are MtGox themselves.  Gox actually opening up BTC withdrawals again should see a large price jump on their exchange.  

I'm not saying that Gox can get out of any position by using an external exchange.  I'm saying that if Gox purchase 1 GoxBTC on their own exchange then they now owe $200 instead of 1BTC, so they've clearly reduced their overall debt (assuming a you consider BTC and fiat liabilities to be equally important, certainly debatable)

maybe im wrong regarding "more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn". but if gox is short BTCs, you would rather own goxUSD, but there will be some low price were youd rather hold the goxBTC then sell for huge USD loss. this is what the market is currently doing, price discovery, at what price would you rather hold.

that depends on how many btcs were stolen.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Once prices started diverging, smart traders would "rather be in fiat, in case of insolvency".    

This just isn't true. If insolvent, then the money is gone. Gone.

rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.

Interesting ... under which court? even better ... under which legislation?

Japanese bankruptcy courts?

Very unlikely, Japan has no specific legislation regarding cryptos. So legally there's notthing that can be done.
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.

Liquidation of what?  Huh

There has to be some assets of value in order to liquidate and return even a token amount back to customers. Unless you're talking about a very large company with a complicated structure, buildings, land, contracts, patents, etc then just getting to that stage normally indicates there is very little left.

they have millions of dollars in customer money... but that money is a liability. as soon as the have less money then is needed to cover all deposits, they are technically insolvent , and can be ordered to return all the millions of customer deposits.. 
hero member
Activity: 680
Merit: 500
rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.

Liquidation of what?  Huh

There has to be some assets of value in order to liquidate and return even a token amount back to customers. Unless you're talking about a very large company with a complicated structure, buildings, land, contracts, patents, etc then just getting to that stage normally indicates there is very little left.
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
but there are not enough real BTCs on their own exchanges. doesn't matter how low the price drops, if they don't have enough BTCs to cover the total clients BTC deposits, they will have to buy externally. nobody is depositing BTCs into gox to sell at 250. the only way they get more BTCs is to buy externally.  

What do you mean by "there are not enough real BTC on their own exchange"? Worst case, they have to come up with BTC equal to the sum of all BTC balances of their customers accounts. They can reduce these BTC balances by using their fiat on their exchange to buy BTC.
member
Activity: 74
Merit: 10

the assumption was that goxBTC is fungible with BTC, otherwise its just paperBTC. In fact, before this incident goxBTC was $100 above bitstampBTC, because goxUSD was impossible to withdraw and worth less than bitstampUSD.

Well, obviously we're in agreement there because it's almost exactly what I put in my post.  I also agree that people clearly currently want to be in GoxFiat rather than GoxBTC

So what are we not agreeing about?

  • As MtGox BTCs price drops relative to Bitstamp BTC, more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn on MtGox, and the cost to MtGox to make customers whole also goes up


They won't be withdrawn though, as the only people who can currently "withdraw" BTC from MtGox are MtGox themselves.  Gox actually opening up BTC withdrawals again should see a large price jump on their exchange. 

I'm not saying that Gox can get out of any position by using an external exchange.  I'm saying that if Gox purchase 1 GoxBTC on their own exchange then they now owe $200 instead of 1BTC, so they've clearly reduced their overall debt (assuming a you consider BTC and fiat liabilities to be equally important, certainly debatable)
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 258
If people are buying from MtGox at a very low price compared to the market average and then selling them back into the open market for tremendous profit (via another exchange), then that calls into question the other "legitimate" exchanges because it does not fit the economics 101 of supply and demand. If the market is being flooded with cheap bitcoins via MtGox, then the price must go down unless the other exchanges are artificially inflating the value to avoid losing money on their side.

That would call into question more than just MtGox honoring trades, but every other exchange out there for price fixing.

if they would be able to do this, prices would not be so low... because of arbitrage. you can buy low on gox, but are not able to transfer then to bitstamp and sell high.
So everyone at MtGox is basically buying credits, for which they will never be able to exchange. Good point, so what exactly is MtGox selling at the moment then?  Shocked
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
Once prices started diverging, smart traders would "rather be in fiat, in case of insolvency".    

This just isn't true. If insolvent, then the money is gone. Gone.

rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.

Interesting ... under which court? even better ... under which legislation?

Japanese bankruptcy courts?
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
If people are buying from MtGox at a very low price compared to the market average and then selling them back into the open market for tremendous profit (via another exchange), then that calls into question the other "legitimate" exchanges because it does not fit the economics 101 of supply and demand. If the market is being flooded with cheap bitcoins via MtGox, then the price must go down unless the other exchanges are artificially inflating the value to avoid losing money on their side.

That would call into question more than just MtGox honoring trades, but every other exchange out there for price fixing.

if they would be able to do this, prices would not be so low... because of arbitrage. you can buy low on gox, but are not able to transfer then to bitstamp and sell high.
newbie
Activity: 9
Merit: 0
Once prices started diverging, smart traders would "rather be in fiat, in case of insolvency".    

This just isn't true. If insolvent, then the money is gone. Gone.

rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.

Interesting ... under which court? even better ... under which legislation?
sr. member
Activity: 308
Merit: 258
If people are buying from MtGox at a very low price compared to the market average and then selling them back into the open market for tremendous profit (via another exchange), then that calls into question the other "legitimate" exchanges because it does not fit the economics 101 of supply and demand. If the market is being flooded with cheap bitcoins via MtGox, then the price must go down unless the other exchanges are artificially inflating the value to avoid losing money on their side.

That would call into question more than just MtGox honoring trades, but every other exchange out there for price fixing.
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
Once prices started diverging, smart traders would "rather be in fiat, in case of insolvency".    

This just isn't true. If insolvent, then the money is gone. Gone.

rephrase: in case of court ordered liquidation.
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
Now they have to balance this by exchanging their fiat profits for BTC on their own exchange.

but there are not enough real BTCs on their own exchanges. doesn't matter how low the price drops, if they don't have enough BTCs to cover the total clients BTC deposits, they will have to buy externally. nobody is depositing BTCs into gox to sell at 250. the only way they get more BTCs is to buy externally.  



hero member
Activity: 680
Merit: 500
Once prices started diverging, smart traders would "rather be in fiat, in case of insolvency".    

This just isn't true. If insolvent, then the money is gone. Gone.
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com
  • As MtGox BTCs price drops relative to Bitstamp BTC, more BTCs will be bought/withdrawn on MtGox, and the cost to MtGox to make customers whole also goes up


This is flawed logic. The amount of fiat at Mt.Gox is fixed as people cannot withdraw significant amounts.

Assuming you are correct and Mt.Gox is short BTC then a low BTC price is ideal for them because they can replace their losses for less fiat money.

If nothing else, they can borrow against all the fiat noone can withdraw anytime soon.



no, if MtGox exchange is short BTCs, the low price of BTC on mtgox is FAKE. there are no BTCs to be bought at $250.  The price of $250 is probably
( (Actual number of BTCs on mtgox) * Bitstamp price ) / (Number of BTCs that mtgox is representing they have)

It was always GoxBTC you were buying on Gox, rather than real BTC.  You were paying with GoxUSD too, for that matter.  For a while previous to this current incident, GoxBTC has been valued at close to what other exchange's BTC was worth, while GoxUSD was worth less than USD on other exchanges.

If they can buy GoxBTC on their own exchange for less than they can sell it for elsewhere then they can reduce their BTC liability (i.e. they now "owe" the customer that sold them the GoxBTC fiat instead of BTC, and in fact they owe them less in fiat than what the BTC was "worth". 

the assumption was that goxBTC is fungible with BTC, otherwise its just paperBTC. In fact, before this incident goxBTC was $100 above bitstampBTC, because goxUSD was impossible to withdraw and worth less than bitstampUSD.

back in the day I used to sell goxUSD for $1.05, because everyone wanted BTCs and it took time to deposit into gox. so they were paying 5% for the time. used to do this on bitcoin_otc irc,using goxUSD codes. 

until now, mtgox traded as if they had enough BTCs to cover. this time is difference.   
full member
Activity: 168
Merit: 100
no - you cannot use $250, must use Bitstamp quotes. see how the low prices hurt them? Again, this is all assuming MtGox is shutdown and goes into liquidation. If these low prices do in fact attract more deposits, then yes, low prices help and it is in fact a ponzi scheme.. like MfGlobal.  

Ok, I will elaborate. Right now the sum of all fiat deposits and BTC deposits is fixed. With each trade a fraction of both becomes the possession of MtGox (trading fees, currency conversion fees; their profit). They must use their exchange to trade one into the other.

Now comes the hack, which reduces their profits on the BTC side, likely going negative. Now they have to balance this by exchanging their fiat profits for BTC on their own exchange.
sr. member
Activity: 410
Merit: 250
Proof-of-Skill - protoblock.com

we're arguing with a 12 year old. i'm out guys.

sure rat. 20 years trading experience, series 3,series 7, coded HFT strategies for multiple hedge funds, and wrote the matching engine for a bitcoin exchange.
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