This thread has spun off pretty far already, and I'm still struggling to get what the connections were supposed to be in the first place.
How are Tribeca Venture Partners, "The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin", Seed and Spark and Michael Mross connected at all? I'm not seeing the links in the material posted.
Edit: And I certainly don't see what the mmnews.de article has to do with any of this, apart from being an article on Mtgox and Bitcoin.
Topic: Remember the subpoenas last year? Why one name was on the list. (Read 4130 times)
Create a currency less regulated. {dog shit} Here come the flies - Add = Bug spray scenario comes to mind.
The "Eye in the sky" is watching all the transactions.
Soon the bubble will burst for all criminal activity on crypto currencies. {How do you kill the flies, if you do not know where they are}
Now how is that for conspiracy theory
Keep it above board guys... We are being watched. {Now I have you paranoid}
Hope they do not get to my wallet. {Cannot afford to loose my $2 worth of Bitcoins}
Interresting info, and good reading thanks.
The "Eye in the sky" is watching all the transactions.
Soon the bubble will burst for all criminal activity on crypto currencies. {How do you kill the flies, if you do not know where they are}
Now how is that for conspiracy theory
Keep it above board guys... We are being watched. {Now I have you paranoid}
Hope they do not get to my wallet. {Cannot afford to loose my $2 worth of Bitcoins}
Interresting info, and good reading thanks.
Quote
I duly hope you're not part of the Paul Snow clan, bud.
Quote
No, I can honestly say I didn't know who he was until now. Don't know much about their org.
Just a cancer located in your home state, one that any proud Texan knows how to take of - sans violence. I've live in Houston, thus knowing first-hand how such can be takin' care of. I'm also probably the only person on this forum that's been to President George Herbert Walker Bush's Houston home.
I duly hope you're not part of the Paul Snow clan, bud.
No, I can honestly say I didn't know who he was until now. Don't know much about their org.
this is a bit embarrassing. but i read the OP and skimmed through the thread. and i can't quite figure out -- what is the connection/conspiracy you are trying to point out here? apparently it is going right over my head!! 
Apologies for the confusion, hence seeing if I can add further to it.
Stemming from the same 888 7th Avenue, NYC, office, we have: http://www.tpgspecialtylending.com/contact_us
Quote
TPG Specialty Lending Offices
San Francisco
345 California Street
Suite 3300
San Francisco, CA 94104
T: 415.486.5939
F: 415.743.1501
London
2nd Floor, Stirling Square
5-7 Carlton Gardens
London, SW1Y 5AD
United Kingdom
T: 44.(0).20.7544.6500
F: 44.(0).20.7544.6565
New York
888 7th Avenue
35th Floor
New York, NY 10106
T: 212.430.4119
F: 212.601.4701
Fort Worth
301 Commerce Street
Suite 3300
Fort Worth, TX 76102
T: 817.871.4000
F: 817.871.4001
San Francisco
345 California Street
Suite 3300
San Francisco, CA 94104
T: 415.486.5939
F: 415.743.1501
London
2nd Floor, Stirling Square
5-7 Carlton Gardens
London, SW1Y 5AD
United Kingdom
T: 44.(0).20.7544.6500
F: 44.(0).20.7544.6565
New York
888 7th Avenue
35th Floor
New York, NY 10106
T: 212.430.4119
F: 212.601.4701
Fort Worth
301 Commerce Street
Suite 3300
Fort Worth, TX 76102
T: 817.871.4000
F: 817.871.4001
Of which we learn: http://cgmalaysia.blogspot.com/2013/09/dangers-of-financial-over-engineering.html
Quote
1. Tarrant Capital Advisors
2. is the sole shareholder of Tarrant Advisors, Inc., a Texas corporation,
3. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures Professionals, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
4. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures Partners, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
5. which is the managing member of TPG Ventures Holdings, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company,
6. which is the sole member of TPG Ventures Advisors, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company,
7. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures GenPar, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
8. which in turn is the general partner of TPG Ventures, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership (the “TPG Fund”),
9. which directly owns the shares of Common Stock of the Issuer reported herein.
2. is the sole shareholder of Tarrant Advisors, Inc., a Texas corporation,
3. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures Professionals, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
4. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures Partners, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
5. which is the managing member of TPG Ventures Holdings, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company,
6. which is the sole member of TPG Ventures Advisors, LLC, a Delaware limited liability company,
7. which is the general partner of TPG Ventures GenPar, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership,
8. which in turn is the general partner of TPG Ventures, L.P., a Delaware limited partnership (the “TPG Fund”),
9. which directly owns the shares of Common Stock of the Issuer reported herein.
Going to http://web.archive.org/web/20020928150610/http://www.tpg.com/ we have... (apologies if the formatting is slightly skewed)
Quote
TPG at a glance
TPG: an increasingly well focussed, better
co-ordinated and customer driven business.
Our place in the world
TPG is the holding company of Royal TPG Post and TNT. We provide the strategic focus and financial strength that enables those companies to maintain and expand their leading positions in Mail, Express and Logistics.
We are a global player, with 143,000 employees in 60 countries. We provide services in over 200 countries worldwide. And we keep expanding - thanks to the vision and innovation of our highly trained personnel.
Our investors trust us to set ambitious targets for revenue and profitable growth. In return, we use ongoing investor media and our Internet site to communicate our position and vision to our shareholders and prospective investors.
TPG is the world's first publicly traded company with roots in the postal business. Environmental management and social responsibility are at the heart of our activities - and TPG people know that the highest levels of awareness and performance are vital to our place in the world.
Today we are the industry benchmark for Mail, a global Express operator, and a successful and forward looking Logistics provider.
Instilling a culture of value creation is one of Board of Management's main objectives. TPG has exciting opportunities to create significant additional value for shareholders.
Our mission
Our mission is to maximise shareholder value by providing superior service to our customers and to create an environment in which our employees can thrive.
Corporate strategy
We base our leadership on high brand awareness, impeccable reputation, above-average profitability and growth.
Global coverage
TPG provides services in more than 200 countries around the world, with company-owned operations in 59 countries.
TPG N.V.
First listed company in the postal business
Biggest private employer in the Netherlands
For the third year running listed third in the category 'mail, packages
and freight delivery' of Fortune 500, World's most admired companies
Royal TPG Post*
Established for over 200 years
Principal mail provider in the Netherlands - collecting, sorting, transporting
and delivering 23 million letters, direct mail items and packages every day.
A market leader in international business mail
Supplier of complete database marketing and direct mail services
Winner of the prestigious Dutch Quality Award 1997
*From May 2002 Royal PTT Post has been rebranded into Royal TPG Post
TNT
First company to achieve worldwide recognition as an Investor in People organisation
Offering unique integrated pan-European and domestic Express delivery
Number one logistics provider to the automotive industry in the world and key provider
of Logistics services to the electronics and pharmaceuticals sectors
First supplier of logistics services to achieve ISO certification for contracts and operations
One of the first adopters of Internet based tracing tracking and ordering services
TNT UK - Winner of the European Quality Award 1998
TPG: an increasingly well focussed, better
co-ordinated and customer driven business.
Our place in the world
TPG is the holding company of Royal TPG Post and TNT. We provide the strategic focus and financial strength that enables those companies to maintain and expand their leading positions in Mail, Express and Logistics.
We are a global player, with 143,000 employees in 60 countries. We provide services in over 200 countries worldwide. And we keep expanding - thanks to the vision and innovation of our highly trained personnel.
Our investors trust us to set ambitious targets for revenue and profitable growth. In return, we use ongoing investor media and our Internet site to communicate our position and vision to our shareholders and prospective investors.
TPG is the world's first publicly traded company with roots in the postal business. Environmental management and social responsibility are at the heart of our activities - and TPG people know that the highest levels of awareness and performance are vital to our place in the world.
Today we are the industry benchmark for Mail, a global Express operator, and a successful and forward looking Logistics provider.
Instilling a culture of value creation is one of Board of Management's main objectives. TPG has exciting opportunities to create significant additional value for shareholders.
Our mission
Our mission is to maximise shareholder value by providing superior service to our customers and to create an environment in which our employees can thrive.
Corporate strategy
We base our leadership on high brand awareness, impeccable reputation, above-average profitability and growth.
Global coverage
TPG provides services in more than 200 countries around the world, with company-owned operations in 59 countries.
TPG N.V.
First listed company in the postal business
Biggest private employer in the Netherlands
For the third year running listed third in the category 'mail, packages
and freight delivery' of Fortune 500, World's most admired companies
Royal TPG Post*
Established for over 200 years
Principal mail provider in the Netherlands - collecting, sorting, transporting
and delivering 23 million letters, direct mail items and packages every day.
A market leader in international business mail
Supplier of complete database marketing and direct mail services
Winner of the prestigious Dutch Quality Award 1997
*From May 2002 Royal PTT Post has been rebranded into Royal TPG Post
TNT
First company to achieve worldwide recognition as an Investor in People organisation
Offering unique integrated pan-European and domestic Express delivery
Number one logistics provider to the automotive industry in the world and key provider
of Logistics services to the electronics and pharmaceuticals sectors
First supplier of logistics services to achieve ISO certification for contracts and operations
One of the first adopters of Internet based tracing tracking and ordering services
TNT UK - Winner of the European Quality Award 1998
That's pretty fuckin' impressive, but why the hell is "mail" not mentioned once today on https://tpg.com/ ?
https://tpg.com/expertise
https://tpg.com/global-reach
I used to have a matryoshka doll till my...wait for it...Batgoat ate it.
this is a bit embarrassing. but i read the OP and skimmed through the thread. and i can't quite figure out -- what is the connection/conspiracy you are trying to point out here? apparently it is going right over my head!!
Phinn, I think you have the making of one serious book. Although you might have to change the flow somewhat.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
Quick aside, possibly...
Quote
Satoshi Nakamoto
Letter scramble:
1) to NSA his aka moot
2) a koinsta 'o thomas
3) ....
Letter scramble:
1) to NSA his aka moot
2) a koinsta 'o thomas
3) ....
In the same vain, it could be quasi-theorized that one can't conduct bitcoin transactions sans the NSA, regardless of the traction.
I duly hope you're not part of the Paul Snow clan, bud.
If it were a gov't agency behind it all, would they have received the subpoena?
I penned DOJ, when I meant http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_State_Department_of_Financial_Services, supervising approximately 4400 entities, with assets of about $6.2 trillion.
How the hell were they able to subpoena entities outside their jurisdiction? The DFS subpoenaed investors of Bitcoin entities, which means that anytime in the future they could subpoena any person holding bitcoins for the same reason, solely on a whim to briefly disrupt ones lives.
Surely, they had just cause to subpoena Tribeca Venture Partners, didn't they, otherwise they wouldn't have been on the list consisting of ONLY 22 entities.
BTW, the DFS was newly formed in Q3, 2011, just in time for the stocking of shelves with Batman costumes for Halloween.
Damn, Benjamin Lawsky looks like a cross between Odo and a Hollywood director.
If it were a gov't agency behind it all, would they have received the subpoena?
Since I sold my Alu hat 4 years ago during the scrap metal boom I can't really relate to the conspiratory (is that a word?) aspects of your daily ramblings. Something that has become clear to me however is the following: where ever the main actors in this opera set foot lots of people lose lots of money. Keep it up.
Speaking of losing money, how does a fairly new entity - Tribeca Venture Partners - invest in 41 other entities, Coinsetter among them, sans no known source of revenue of their own, and just happens to be on the DOJ's RADAR, hence the subpoena.
http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/tribeca-venture-partners
http://www.businessweek.com/news/2013-08-12/new-york-subpoenas-bitcoin-firms-in-probe-over-criminal-risk
Quote
Christina Hirsch, a spokeswoman for Winklevoss, declined to comment. Margit Wennmachers, a spokeswoman for Andreessen Horowitz, said the firm did not receive a subpoena. Bloomberg LP is an investor in Andreessen Horowitz.
In addition to Winklevoss Capital and Andreessen Horowitz, DFS sent subpoenas to the following investor groups: Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, Boost VC Bitcoin Fund, Founders Fund, Google Ventures, Lightspeed Venture Partners, Tribeca Venture Partners, Tropos Funds and Union Square Ventures, the person said.
In addition to Winklevoss Capital and Andreessen Horowitz, DFS sent subpoenas to the following investor groups: Bitcoin Opportunity Fund, Boost VC Bitcoin Fund, Founders Fund, Google Ventures, Lightspeed Venture Partners, Tribeca Venture Partners, Tropos Funds and Union Square Ventures, the person said.
Color me confused, but did, or did not, Andreessen Horowitz receive a subpoena?
Since I sold my Alu hat 4 years ago during the scrap metal boom I can't really relate to the conspiratory (is that a word?) aspects of your daily ramblings. Something that has become clear to me however is the following: where ever the main actors in this opera set foot lots of people lose lots of money. Keep it up.
A clear summary would be a great idea, and you could edit in updates when they are important.
[Reserved for A Clear Summary]
Gimme a few hours, and I'll try to wrangle this steer for ja
Great! A buffalo in a china shop. Try not to break anything.
BTW, I FTFY. You're slippin'!
Thanks, bud, for your efforts.
Phinn, I think you have the making of one serious book. Although you might have to change the flow somewhat.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
Thank you so kindly, jc01480, for the welcoming advice. I'll try to heed it.
I didn't really meant to brag about my SAT scores but, unfortunately, that's all the former educational cred I have, and if it wasn't for the shingle being lost due to Katina, I would've had it framed. Fuckin' HAARP!
I usually do include more details when I pen an OP, but since it seemed so clear to this rod-in-head mind of mine, I thought it would also be clear to the reader, but I now do see some holes as I look in the mirror while removing the rod.
Tribeca Film Festival, where the premier of The Rise and Rise of Bitcoin was first shown, aside, the rest of the connections were made via one investor of OKCoin.
One has to admit that the following does seem a little creepy: http://www.bidnessetc.com/21947-news-intercontinentalexchange-group-nyse-ice-plans-to-spin-off-euronext-before-summer/
A clear summary would be a great idea, and you could edit in updates when they are important.
[EDITED]
Alright, I've tried to get the ball rolling here for all you JA-come-latelies.
Take a stroll over here, and you'll find most of PG's evidence nicely gathered:
"A Summary of Phinnaeus Gage's Investigation into Brock Pierce Thus Far" by buffalodoge
https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/a-summary-of-phinnaeus-gages-investigation-into-brock-pierce-thus-far-628000
A clear summary would be a great idea, and you could edit in updates when they are important.
Phinn, I think you have the making of one serious book. Although you might have to change the flow somewhat.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
I used to do very complex investigations for an unnamed agency. When I was first starting out I learned some valuable lessons. The first lesson was to write my investigations in as plain English as possible. In other words, don't write it like you're trying to explain it to your colleagues, write it like you are trying to explain it to the common person and (jury, prosecutor). People and lawyers get lost in the technical jargon, innuendos, and implications. You have to spell each point out and in chronological order, state specifically how they relate to the case, and what these facts have to do with the investigation itself. I mastered this simple concept and the agency still uses some of these principles today to teach their young Agents how to 'splain things in a report.
I like reading your posts and I think you're on to something interesting, but I'll admit, my SAT scores weren't as good as yours. I do have some trouble connecting the dots. I hope you're archiving all of this information somewhere, too. Seems you've connected not just a few actors, but an entire underground culture of some sick stuff.
With this said I have to question your motivation behind this exposure. And I pray it is not what I think it is. Keep up the good work.
I'd love to know what this is about as it seems interesting but I can't work out what is going on.
Just posting links and addresses and stuff doesn't really work if you don't know what connections are being made. How about an introduction, middle and conclusion in your posts PG?
Just posting links and addresses and stuff doesn't really work if you don't know what connections are being made. How about an introduction, middle and conclusion in your posts PG?
Hey Phinnaeus, your posts are usually better than this. This one is full of holes
Are you suggesting they are related? From what I see, they are not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribeca_Film_Festival
http://tribecavp.com/
Same question. Are you suggesting they are related? Nicholas Mross was born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA and this Micheal Mross is a german writer. Do you have a source showing their relationship, cos I couldn't find one.
So are 3 other companies I found:
http://careyco.com/contact-us/
http://www.2cv.com/where-and-who.aspx
http://www.nodepression.com/page/contact-1
Do you think these companies are also in on the conspiracy?
...Tribeca Venture Partners...
...http://tribecafilm.com/filmguide/53286d0ab57ce982ad000163-rise-and-rise-of-bitcoin...
...http://tribecafilm.com/filmguide/53286d0ab57ce982ad000163-rise-and-rise-of-bitcoin...
Are you suggesting they are related? From what I see, they are not
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribeca_Film_Festival
http://tribecavp.com/
Same question. Are you suggesting they are related? Nicholas Mross was born and raised in Pittsburgh, PA and this Micheal Mross is a german writer. Do you have a source showing their relationship, cos I couldn't find one.
http://www.crunchbase.com/organization/ceyuan-ventures
http://www.seedandspark.com/terms-services
460 Bush Street
San Francisco, CA 94108
http://www.seedandspark.com/terms-services
460 Bush Street
San Francisco, CA 94108
So are 3 other companies I found:
http://careyco.com/contact-us/
http://www.2cv.com/where-and-who.aspx
http://www.nodepression.com/page/contact-1
Do you think these companies are also in on the conspiracy?
Quote
"A hero can be anyone, even a man doing something as simple and reassuring as putting a coat around a young boy's shoulders to let him know the world hasn't ended."
~Batman to Chief Jim Gordon of Gotham City
~Batman to Chief Jim Gordon of Gotham City
Boy, you're not going to believe this!: https://www.linkedin.com/company/gotham-government-solutions (remember this link)
Note the phone number: (916) 730-1881
http://www.dos.ny.gov/corps/bus_entity_search.html
http://appext20.dos.ny.gov/corp_public/CORPSEARCH.ENTITY_INFORMATION?p_nameid=2886503&p_corpid=2863915&p_entity_name=tribe%20llc&p_name_type=A&p_search_type=BEGINS&p_srch_results_page=0
Note the Big Chief.
Note the address.
Let's see who's at that address on the 35th floor.
http://csrc.nist.gov/cyberframework/rfi_comments/040813_gotham.pdf
Is this what Mark Karpeles was trying to relay with his coded(?) Batman logo link in that Pastebin interview?
Dark Knight Rises: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1345836/
Quote
Eight years after the Joker's reign of anarchy, the Dark Knight must return to defend Gotham City against the enigmatic jewel thief Catwoman and the ruthless mercenary Bane as the city teeters on the brink of complete annihilation.
For sake of argument, let's say that Mark Karpeles is a joker that likes to speak in riddles. We have Dark, as in Let There be Dark; Catwoman, as in Mark has a cat; Bane, as in Tibane, his cat's name; Satoshi Nakamoto is an enigma; Brink, as in a money transporter, and starts with the letter B; Gotham City, as in http://www.gothamgs.com. Add, whatever else I left out. (odd, that Bane was capitalized)
How do you like the NSA and NIST connection?
Phinn...if you don't mind me asking, what do you do as a career or day job? You are a serious True Detective!
I buy and sell barn wood. Seriously! Josh, of BFL, even claimed once that I don't buy it, but steal it - at night.
I also deal in Wow really? That's not what I expected at all, thats really cool. I was expecting something to do with computer science or finance...
I'm probably one of the few here that got a perfect 800 on their SAT math section (732/English/comprehensive). I've became a better writer to express myself via Google and this forum.
BTW, the ROI on one board feet of reclaimed lumber is 200-500% - profit!
Phinn...if you don't mind me asking, what do you do as a career or day job? You are a serious True Detective!
I buy and sell barn wood. Seriously! Josh, of BFL, even claimed once that I don't buy it, but steal it - at night.
I also deal in Wow really? That's not what I expected at all, thats really cool. I was expecting something to do with computer science or finance...
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