Reminder: Goldbugs are a joke | Bitcointalksearch.org

STT

legendary

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Bitcoiners consider gold to be shit and a horrible asset overall, while gold bugs refer to Bitcoin in the exact same way. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Both camps are emotionally connected to their investments.

I dont like gold but I do own some because its I think its necessary, now and in the future certainly it will be part of currency used globally. Its not emotional for me really, chemically its unique and its justified on a few different perspectives.

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blockchain technology that allows people to gain the full monetary benefits of gold on a digital platform

I cant agree, they are two different asset types. Oil is fungible mostly but just about everything that might be a capital asset, used as proxy for money has various pros and cons to it. Bitcoin is very convenient and far more tradable in tiny bits but its not a replacement for something physical and unique.

Diversity is best, dont own one thing or even one sector. Owning housing and the land is still a good idea despite various drawbacks and costs to it. Hopefully we can do all of them at some point, I dont blame people for sticking with only crypto as they have very little and its the most explosive from being so new.
Anyone who opposes crypto which encourages involvement, while then recognising the vast majority of the population dont keep proper savings or assets is not a capitalist.

Thermos sets his bug bounties in gold I noticed - https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/security-bounties-309785

timerland

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Quote from: pereira4 on July 05, 2019, 06:56:47 PM

Gold finally gets a little pump after years of stagnation and underperforming when it should have been performing against the ongoing fiat clusterfucks all over, and goldbugs start giving "told you so" lessons.

Whenever you see a goldbug giving you a 101 on economy and investments lesson (the same goldbugs which told you to buy gold instead of "that Bitcoin scam" since 2012) show them this pic which exposes the mother of all goldbugs:

Unbelievable that this guy and their followers still have the audacity to go around lecturing Bitcoin holders. They should be quietly hiding under a rock at best.

I think that a lot of people severely misunderstood where the criticism is coming from.

We are not criticising gold investors at all, or even gold itself.

What we are shunning is the fact that there are people out there that use their influence to mislead people, put out completely arbitrary figures and say that a certain asset is going to hit $xxxx in y amount of time, with absolutely no backing. And these same people are making profit out of this business due to the premiums they charge on gold/silver bullion purchases from their own site.

Blindly believing in a single asset class never ends well, even if that asset class is something like gold which perceived to be a long term store of value. If you don't recognize cycles, short term movements, and simply delude yourself into thinking that it's simply going to hold the value of your investment in the long run, you are dead wrong. Especially in this day and age with blockchain technology that allows people to gain the full monetary benefits of gold on a digital platform.

dothebeats

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Cashback 15%

Quote from: el kaka22 on July 11, 2019, 07:32:07 AM

I disagree with the notion that gold is a bad investment. It is actually one of the best ones out there, you may think that bitcoin is better and you are probably right but it has super volatility as well and not that many old people like volatility (and can really understand what bitcoin is).

Look at all other investments, maybe buying a house would be better? Not in a bad market when house prices go down, maybe stocks? not when those scammy CEO is in charge, maybe forex? Not when governments are this bad at controlling the economy. There are so many horrible investments that even when you list all bad things about gold they are still ahead of others because other investments are even worse. I am not saying gold is the ideal investment method but looking at the others they are not half bad neither.

To put it in another perspective, every investment has its own timing, and it's just up to the investor on how would they weigh these investments and how would they choose it. I agree that gold is a good investment, especially if you're trying to use it as a hedge for devaluation, but it wouldn't make you rich, I'd say ^{^{not unless you happen to stumble upon tons of gold in a dumpster.}} It only gets better if you're already rich and just wants to make a passive income without having to worry about the ups and downs of the Forex market or the stocks. Well if I have the luxury, I'd buy gold and other precious metals just to be safe, but then again, I don't have that kind of money just yet.

BitHodler

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Quote from: SquallLeonhart on July 16, 2019, 11:59:23 AM

I think it is not nice to call people joke if they want to get gold for savings. I mean gold is still one of the most viable value storage things in the world, I know we are using bitcoin and we like it over gold any day but that doesn't mean everyone should be like that.

It goes both ways. It's just action reaction. Bitcoiners consider gold to be shit and a horrible asset overall, while gold bugs refer to Bitcoin in the exact same way. I don't see anything wrong with it.

Both camps are emotionally connected to their investments. For most of them it's all or nothing and they won't shy away from trashing competing assets. Don't we largely have the same goal at the end of the day?

Quote from: SquallLeonhart on July 16, 2019, 11:59:23 AM

Gold is so strong in value storage that if you buy it constantly and keep it aside instead of stocks or forex or whatever than you will not lose any value over your purchasing power until you die

That's not entirely true. People who bought gold 5 years ago have booked a sub 10% net gain. Inflation is about 2% a year so based on that there is a loss of purchasing power.

It all comes down to what your entry point is. For some it might have been a fantastic hedge against inflation, and for some totally not, especially when you as retailer fomo bought around the top years ago.

SquallLeonhart

legendary

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I think it is not nice to call people joke if they want to get gold for savings. I mean gold is still one of the most viable value storage things in the world, I know we are using bitcoin and we like it over gold any day but that doesn't mean everyone should be like that.

Gold is so strong in value storage that if you buy it constantly and keep it aside instead of stocks or forex or whatever than you will not lose any value over your purchasing power until you die, sometimes it does go down a bit but even than it doesn't go down that much, it goes down only a little and when it goes up it goes up because other currencies lose its value. So you have a house that worth 1 million dollars lets say and you can buy it with x amount of gold, 10 years from now that house could worth 2-3 million dollars and that x amount of gold will worth that same house more often than not.

STT

legendary

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Guess this is the kind of thing governments will be glad to promote...things they have good control of and can easily manipulate the price as it suits them.

I dont think governments can easily control gold pricing, not in their currency at least. Thats a good question for what is suitable as an internationally tradable asset, when it is possible to manipulate it becomes an unreliable backing for trade. China is currently the worlds largest miner of gold but is not fully releasing its figures, a handy feature of a command economy that everyone is within reach of government and the main buyers of all that production are the government central bank foreign reserves hence its very likely they are not releasing figures properly.
Thats manipulation on a national level, I dont think its generally a feature worldwide just most dont want or care about gold that much. I feel no great desire to own it, I do think it'll rise over my lifetime for sure though.

STT

legendary

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Here is a good chart that might be cited by those in favour of a gold standard or at least to personally hedge yourself with a gold holding no matter what -

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The reasoning being we left the gold standard in early 1970's which matches the time that wages failed to track general advances in the economy, in industrial productivity. Most people earn money and spend it immediately, the closest they come to an appreciating asset would be a house (which takes them decades to own) which means they have no gains from bonds, stocks or equity in a company.
Generally people have become poorer while its also been the case society has seen lower costs from this general productivity rise

I would have to agree its not profitable to hold dollar or most currencies across the world, its better to have some interest in a proper asset. However most people struggle to stay liquid and so most are in cash, government IOU of this sort

farwellbit

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Quote from: pereira4 on July 05, 2019, 06:56:47 PM

Gold finally gets a little pump after years of stagnation and underperforming when it should have been performing against the ongoing fiat clusterfucks all over, and goldbugs start giving "told you so" lessons.

Whenever you see a goldbug giving you a 101 on economy and investments lesson (the same goldbugs which told you to buy gold instead of "that Bitcoin scam" since 2012) show them this pic which exposes the mother of all goldbugs:

Unbelievable that this guy and their followers still have the audacity to go around lecturing Bitcoin holders. They should be quietly hiding under a rock at best.

There’s nothing wrong with making use of gold, we all know that gold has always been the store for value for a long time now. But anyone trying to tell me not to invest in what I like, must be going out of their mind. These are the people that will tell you not to buy that Bitcoin because they believe it is scam, but they will later, go behind you and invest in that Bitcoin they are calling scam and be making money from it on a low key, while you remain broke with gold investments. I don’t care if Bitcoin is a scam or not, as long there is the opportunity for me to make money from it, then I’m not going to miss out on that.

Harlot

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Bro with how you constructed the post it's like you are also referring to what happened to Bitcoin in the past 18 months which is nearly similar to the price action what Gold has been doing. This just proves that an asset no matter how it was brought down by the bear market it will still go up as long as there are people holding it and the demand for it is still there. BTC might have quadrupled its value but still gold isn't a volatile asset so we cannot really vompare the gains we have from a different kind of asset.

STT

legendary

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I shiver when people talking about investing in BTC or gold or any asset which gives no yield, no business ownership and is basically a commodity. If I buy a barrel of oil imagining its price will rise, it might well do at present with the Iran troubles; however this is just speculation.

I spent cash on something now rather then a month from now and I hope theres enough price difference that I gain. Since I'm not even consuming the commodity, there is really no business investment. Its commodity speculation, that could be great but its not involvement in an investment. Or at least thats how I view it, seems like nobody else does

If I run a goldsmith jewellery service, if I'm Bitcoin processor of some kind, a casino with BTC float. If I use a generator which consumes oil. Then sure there is utility employed, Im invested in these scenarios. If I trade a price and speculate it goes up or down, its not investment. Its fairly close to a gamble, the dynamic is different and I believe a large part of BTC pricing is this dynamic.

Gold is used by central banks as an investment asset, the way thats done by hedging their balance sheet. Their issuance of IOU or debt or any liability is countered by their holding of assets, in 2008 this went wrong when many core assets were housing debt and lots worthless so the banks were broke. They had leverage as an asset, it deflated in worth and its a disaster. However gold is not a leveraged kind of asset, its really a slow basic ironic kind of holding. It seems to be far more suited though many might disagree its usefulness.

https://www.investopedia.com/terms/i/investment.asp

el kaka22

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www.Crypto.Games: Multiple coins, multiple games

I disagree with the notion that gold is a bad investment. It is actually one of the best ones out there, you may think that bitcoin is better and you are probably right but it has super volatility as well and not that many old people like volatility (and can really understand what bitcoin is).

Look at all other investments, maybe buying a house would be better? Not in a bad market when house prices go down, maybe stocks? not when those scammy CEO is in charge, maybe forex? Not when governments are this bad at controlling the economy. There are so many horrible investments that even when you list all bad things about gold they are still ahead of others because other investments are even worse. I am not saying gold is the ideal investment method but looking at the others they are not half bad neither.

STT

legendary

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Quote from: gentlemand on July 09, 2019, 06:51:36 AM

wait for it to be validated and probably accept an offer quite a bit below spot as the only person who'd buy it would be a gold dealer.

Obviously if you have an IOU then that's a different matter but real gold believers shouldn't be touching that anyway.

I'm not a real believer on anything tbh, I like technology and I think gold is just inert and will keep doing what its always done, no biggy. The transaction part is the controversial cost to gold, its more expensive to use then Bitcoin. So I wouldnt keep a pile of gold, I'd keep a recognised long term gold coin but theres a bid and offer spread to using that coin. It can be used every day instantly on almost every city street with a jeweller or similar in every country so thats fungible but its not that efficient in the 'bits' quantity BTC manages, the bug will counter its alot more stable. The price really hasnt gone far from $1,400 recently, boring but change in either direction is pretty slow so some people like that and find it more reliable.
Most of the world is poor, certainty in cash they dont have much so BTC wins for its lower cost but still defers long term to gold for stability. When BTC rises for a year or so its hard to see a problem but the same change negatively can make BTC very unpopular.

The gold thats swapped about now is done in very large quantities not by the coin so its not applicable to people at present. The % cost is far too high, BTC is far more the currency of the people barring the possible technology difficulties people might clamber over.

Gold has a different trust system, it can be low cost when exchanged by note or by agreement within a population. If the farmer accepts my gold (this can be direct or by account, a tab cleared by balance of difference. central banks do that) for food and he in turn can pay the plumber the same gold then all 3 people have kept costs of circulation very low. I do think that can happen again and gold can be exchanged with this type of trust and in some countries its already necessary to do this. I dont rate gold as inferior, its just a different setup.

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he might have thought he could attract some investors by waging a war against bitcoin

If you find Schiff obnoxious, I can confirm its just a natural stance. Its not a direct relation to Bitcoin or even his own business interests. He is just a very outspoken individual, the motivation for that can be traced back to the 1970's where his father testified in front of congress regarding the change to the gold standard backing the Dollar.

We are talking ancient history here, my own father studied Economics, philosophy, politics at Oxford many moons ago in a similar era where the worlds Forex was based around gold and trade balances. One of the few topics I could always rely on my father being interested in discussing was these kind of economics, my father states gold is high risk though and as a commodity that is likely true.
Hence I can relate to the natural interest from having a father with that type of background in economics. Its a very long story, its likely Schiff has these views now because he grew up being taught as much. Doesnt mean he is correct and I dont think he knows the exact nature of BTC or crypto but its a genuine stance afaik

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLmD9TeUC54

7788bitcoin

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Quote from: pereira4 on July 05, 2019, 06:56:47 PM

Gold finally gets a little pump after years of stagnation and underperforming when it should have been performing against the ongoing fiat clusterfucks all over, and goldbugs start giving "told you so" lessons.

Every expert opinion are like empty cartridges who predict some valuation and then point out they said so, Peter Schiff who is anti bitcoin for a long time needs to misguide every causal investor who were willing to invest in the market and since he is a stock broker he might have thought he could attract some investors by waging a war against bitcoin and he could be in the news for this reason and is an advertisement for his business indirectly. Cheesy

gentlemand

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Quote from: STT on July 09, 2019, 02:38:28 AM

Both are fungible and easily tradable, liquid assets.

If we're talking 'real' gold then it can't hold a candle to BTC in this respect. If I had a pile of gold I wanted rid of I'd have to travel a substantial distance, wait for it to be validated and probably accept an offer quite a bit below spot as the only person who'd buy it would be a gold dealer.

Obviously if you have an IOU then that's a different matter but real gold believers shouldn't be touching that anyway.

STT

legendary

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I dont see the two ever should be used to oppose the other. Gold requires a trusted deposit somewhere so how does this discussion vs crypto which is quite unique in its distribution occur. Dollar prices almost everything, we could be arguing about storing barrels of oil but I dont recommend it. If dollar continues down I dont doubt oil will eventually get to 200 per barrel even while alternatives continue.

I think the main point must be gold is very compact and obviously crypto too. Both are fungible and easily tradable, liquid assets. Otherwise I dont see favouring one stops an interest in the other, the overlap isnt much.

I can explain the goldbug mind, 2011 is yesterday not that long in context and it peaked and fell and really that decline means little. Its a very long term asset and the price in dollars is going to be secondary when its being considered properly. The criticisms on price wont really mean much, the deeper argument is going to be about politics and relevance in a modern economy etc. That might be why BTC creates such venom, not just from a goldbug but also those who benefit greatly from the FIAT debt system which aids those close to the source of the easy money. They both are opposed to a system of value outside what they believe is correct.

I far prefer Jim Rickards acceptance that anything at all can be money but quality and durability varies.

MTL4

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Anyone promoting any asset relentlessly either doesn't understand markets very well or they are profiting from the rise in that asset in some way (such as goldbugs like Schiff). It doesn't matter if you're talking about art, real estate, metals or crypto, they all rise and fall based on their perceived value. Rare buttons could become more valuable that bitcoins if everyone agreed that they held immense value, it's really all just perception. Both gold and bitcoin have risen again recently for technical (price breakout) reasons. Some assets in the market get value from their use while others may be more primarily a store of value. As an asset Bitcoin primarily benefits from two main advantages to create it's value: 1) it can circumvent capital controls because it's easy to transmit and 2) its relative rarity creates a store of value which allows it to be easily exchanged for other currencies/assets. Blockchain is another benefit but in terms of market cap very few people can wrap their head around how that works so it's a relatively small part of the value currently. So if the modern markets since the last crash had not been distorted beyond repair by central banks (and greedy governments with endless deficits) trying to stop the business cycle, then the reality is that cryptos would not likely have grown nearly as fast as they did. As the Cryptos markets mature they too will not be immune to the distortions of the markets (think highly leveraged derivatives). The other issue is that making the supply fixed means it will likely function more like a commodity than money (since money must allow for population expansion or it becomes deflationary). In any case cryptos have solved some very difficult problems and for that their recent value has been greatly rewarded.

Linkkoin

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Quote from: angel55 on July 08, 2019, 10:17:57 AM

I agree that most goldbugs are really insane about how much they think the price will increase. However gold is still worth buying and most wealthy people keep a percentage of their net worth in precious metals. Gold has been valuable for thousands of years and with that type of track record it is worth buying.

On the other hand, if you check the inflation rates (and by it, we do mean as well the cost of food/things) it is not a superb form of investing with huge rates of profits.

angel55

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I agree that most goldbugs are really insane about how much they think the price will increase. However gold is still worth buying and most wealthy people keep a percentage of their net worth in precious metals. Gold has been valuable for thousands of years and with that type of track record it is worth buying.

pereira4

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Quote from: hatshepsut93 on July 07, 2019, 01:36:00 PM

Quote from: pereira4 on July 07, 2019, 10:59:05 AM

The entire market is obviously rigged. When you can pump stocks by printing money you don't get a clear view of what's going on. The metals market are also rigged. Spoofing in future markets is an ongoing thing. When JP morgan's ass was saved when they did the wrong trade on silver back on 2012 which resulted on Blythe Masters being executed.

People are saying the same thing about Bitcoin, that banks/governments can print money and buy it, that futures are used to manipulate the price. People are talking about whales and manipulators in Bitcoin every day.

Quote from: pereira4 on July 07, 2019, 10:59:05 AM

They meet in chatrooms / telegram and manipulate prices, this is no crazy conspiracy theory. Obviously this is happening in all markets to some extent including Bitcoin but with the difference being that with Bitcoin it's the only thing you can know and audit to be strictly limited in amount so any Maddof scheme attemps to disturb real price discovery are short-lived.

Everything is a [conspiracy] theory until there is evidence. Manipulation, insider trading and other illegal practices happen all the time, on any market, but it doesn't mean that the whole market is rigged, especially if the market is huge.

There is evidence of manipulation everywhere. Just with JP morgan, here is a nice list of their "practices":

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In October 2018, the U.S. Treasury imposed a $5.3 billion fine in a settlement with JPMorgan Chase for the violation of Cuban Assets Control Regulations, Iranian sanctions and Weapons of Mass Destruction sanctions 87 times. Back then, the U.S. Treasury also said it had found the bank violated sanctions on narcotics and Syria, when it processed 85 transactions and maintained accounts for six sanctioned individuals.

In December 2018, JPMorgan Chase agreed to pay $135 million to settle Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) allegations that it mishandled U.S. securities that represent shares of foreign companies, the latest bank fined in an industry crackdown on the practice. The bank improperly provided what's known as American depository receipts (ADR) to brokers when neither the brokers nor their clients held shares in foreign companies that were required to support such transactions.

Again in December 2018, the Hong Kong Monetary Authority (HKMA) said on Friday that it had fined the Hong Kong branch of JPMorgan Chase $1.60 million and reprimanded it for breaching anti-money laundering and counter-terrorist financing rules. An investigation by the HKMA had found that between April 2012 and February 2014 JPMorgan Hong Kong contravened six provisions of the anti-money laundering and anti-terrorist financing rules.

In January 2017, the Indonesian government suspended ties with JPMorgan Chase after the bank's research analysts issued a negative report on the country and stopped using the bank for bond issuance. The ban on the U.S. investment bank was lifted and the Indonesian government commissioned JPMorgan Chase to issue bonds on May 2.

In 2016, an investigation by U.S. authorities found out that the JPMorgan Chase hired children of Chinese authorities from 2006 to 2013 in order to do jobs in China. The bank had to pay a $264 million fine to settle claims that its hiring violated the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act (FCPA).

In 2014, JPMorgan Chase agreed to pay over $2 billion for failing to alert federal courts about the largest Ponzi scheme fraud in U.S. history, the Bernie Madoff scandal. The bank had to pay over $1 billion to settle criminal charges, millions to settle civil claims by Madoff's victims and millions to be paid to the Treasury Department.

Serving as Madoff's primary bank for more than two decades, JPMorgan had a unique window into his scheme. In a document outlining the bank's wrongdoing, prosecutors had argued that "the Madoff Ponzi scheme was conducted almost exclusively" through various accounts held at JPMorgan. A fraudulent investor, Bernie Madoff was estimated to have swindled nearly $65 billion into his own accounts.

In 2013, the American investment bank was fined $13 billion for its manipulations on the quality of the mortgages it had been selling to investors in the runup to the 2008 financial crisis. The deal included a $4 billion consumer relief package, and a $4 billion settlement with the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which oversees government mortgage financing companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Again in 2013, the bank had to pay $410 million in fines for its manipulation of the American power market in California and the Midwest, as an investigation by the U.S. Federal Energy Regulatory Commission (FERC) revealed. JPMorgan Ventures Energy Corp, the commodity trading unit of the bank, agreed to pay a civil penalty of $285 million and disgorge $125 million for "manipulative bidding strategies" from September 2010 through November 2012.

In 2010, JPMorgan Chase was fined $49 million by the Financial Services Authority (FSA) of the U.K. for failing to protect billions of dollars of client money over almost seven years between November 2002 and July 2009.

And this is only what is in the clear, imagine all the moves that don't get reported. The main point here was to show how Bitcoin cannot be manipulated long term due it's auditable, open source, strictly limited in amount nature.

gentlemand

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Quote from: Kakmakr on July 07, 2019, 10:03:19 AM

Well not all of them are invested into physical Gold... a lot of them only have a piece of paper that promises them that they own that percentage of Gold somewhere in a vault. Roll Eyes

They trust centralized entities with their wealth and they trust that the digital entry next to their name would guarantee them ownership of that so-called asset/commodity. Roll Eyes

Most of them have never even saw the physical Gold in those vaults... they just trust that it is there. Grin

If you spend all day tapping away about how corrupt everything is and have nothing but an IOU to cuddle at night then you're no better than anyone else.

Can't be arsed to check a gold forum but I presume such people are tracked down and forced to post leg spreading photos for being maggots.

Topic: Reminder: Goldbugs are a joke (Read 517 times)