Topic: Reporting bitcoin mining earnings to IRS, Post FinCEN. (Read 6896 times)
Couldnt you write off your entire electric bill as your cost as a miner?
Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US. What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit. You have no idea how the rest of the world lives.
[/quote]
You might want to read this Zedster: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047323
Here is an excerpt:
Quote
Filing Requirements
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad.
[/quote]If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad.
Taken out of context. You are missing the part that says when you have to pay taxes. This is only the who. I will not fight with you since I have been living it for 18 years.
You can never regain US citizenship
Only if it is determined that you renounced citizenship for tax reasons.This video contains an interview with a person who has done this, and with a lawyer familiar with the subject:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fWkoEJ_tYuE
b) already have citizenship with another country
Most countries require this but the US does not.True (was kinda simplifying). Although not a requirement, most legal counsel would recommend it. The only renunciations which have any legal weight are those done on foreign soil. Even if you are not a citizen of the US, your host country, which likely gave you an entry VISA (explicit or defacto) may not take kindly to the fact that the circumstances that allowed your entry no longer exists. You can be deported back to the US as a "non-citizen" which is likely a scenario one wants to avoid. Most countries which allow "easy citizenship" for non residents limit the countries they will accept as applicants (namely US and other "first world" countries).
Not securing citizenship first could put yourself in somewhat of a bind if you end up deported back to the US as a "non-citizen". You can never regain US citizenship and most foreign countries will not allow entry to "stateless" persons and the few countries which issue citizenship to non-residents don't issue them to stateless persons.
Granted each persons circumstances are different, if you are a multi-billionaire looking to live permanently at sea as part of some seasteading city you are building well it might make sense to go "stateless".
b) already have citizenship with another country
Most countries require this but the US does not. 
Um lots of people don't pay their taxes. Not paying your taxes =/= no tax liability. Just ask Mr. Snipes ( I hear he was recently released).
Not accepting that you're a slave == no tax liability
The IRS lacking jurisdiction over you == no tax liability
You all need to ask yourself, "What evidence are they using to prove you're a taxpayer?"
Also to renounce citizenship one must:
a) be current on all taxes (yes they will check with IRS and this will likely prompt an audit of your last 7 years of tax returns).
b) already have citizenship with another country (difficult in most countries to gain dual citizenship after birth but there are some nice caribbean nations willing to do so for a price).
c) pay an "exit" tax on value of assets at the time (I only wish I was kidding).
d) pay a processing fee of $540
Jeez. It's easier just to lie the IRS as much as possible like everyone else does.
That probably is the intention. The US policies regarding taxation are completely out of line with the entire rest of the first world. Kinda ironic given that unfair taxation was one of the sparks which lead to the revolution.
Also to renounce citizenship one must:
a) be current on all taxes (yes they will check with IRS and this will likely prompt an audit of your last 7 years of tax returns).
b) already have citizenship with another country (difficult in most countries to gain dual citizenship after birth but there are some nice caribbean nations willing to do so for a price).
c) pay an "exit" tax on value of assets at the time (I only wish I was kidding).
d) pay a processing fee of $540
Jeez. It's easier just to lie the IRS as much as possible like everyone else does.
Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US. What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit. You have no idea how the rest of the world lives.
Um lots of people don't pay their taxes. Not paying your taxes =/= no tax liability. Just ask Mr. Snipes ( I hear he was recently released).
Now the US does allow a credit of foreign taxes against US taxes owed so if you live in a high tax country you may end up owing no US taxes but you are still obligated to file a return and pay any US taxes owed.
BTW: stating the facts doesn't mean support of the policy.
my big worry is if i do not report now, they may come at me 5-10 years from now with interested owed.
If Bitcoin is still worth anything 5-10 years from now and you own some now you'll likely be able to manage that risk by just moving outside their jurisdiction.Unless the OP renounces citizenship (not a bad idea right now), moving does nothing except offer a potential 95K tax credit if you live 330 days (or something like that) outside the USA.
The only country on the planet that taxes its citizens regardless of where they live.
...the land of the free
Sadly (AFAIK) the US the only country which bases tax obligation on citizenship not residency so your only option to avoid US taxes is to renounce your citizenship which is no easy task.
Also to renounce citizenship one must:
a) be current on all taxes (yes they will check with IRS and this will likely prompt an audit of your last 7 years of tax returns).
b) already have citizenship with another country (difficult in most countries to gain dual citizenship after birth but there are some nice caribbean nations willing to do so for a price).
c) pay an "exit" tax on value of assets at the time (I only wish I was kidding).
d) pay a processing fee of $540
In 2011 only ~1,100 people successfully renounced their US citizenship (on edit: looks like ~1,800 in 2012). Expect to spend thousands of dollars on legal & CPA fees and the process will take a couple months.
Renouncing US citizenship may eliminate future liability but it does nothing to eliminate existing liability.
Protip : Dont incriminate yourself.
my big worry is if i do not report now, they may come at me 5-10 years from now with interested owed.
LMAO...seriously??
my big worry is if i do not report now, they may come at me 5-10 years from now with interested owed.
If Bitcoin is still worth anything 5-10 years from now and you own some now you'll likely be able to manage that risk by just moving outside their jurisdiction.Unless the OP renounces citizenship (not a bad idea right now), moving does nothing except offer a potential 95K tax credit if you live 330 days (or something like that) outside the USA.
The only country on the planet that taxes its citizens regardless of where they live.
...the land of the free
Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US. What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit. You have no idea how the rest of the world lives.
You might want to read this Zedster: http://www.irs.gov/publications/p54/ch01.html#en_US_2012_publink100047323
Here is an excerpt:
Quote
Filing Requirements
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad.
If you are a U.S. citizen or resident alien, the rules for filing income, estate, and gift tax returns and for paying estimated tax are generally the same whether you are in the United States or abroad.
my big worry is if i do not report now, they may come at me 5-10 years from now with interested owed.
If Bitcoin is still worth anything 5-10 years from now and you own some now you'll likely be able to manage that risk by just moving outside their jurisdiction.Unless the OP renounces citizenship (not a bad idea right now), moving does nothing except offer a potential 95K tax credit if you live 330 days (or something like that) outside the USA.
The only country on the planet that taxes its citizens regardless of where they live.
...the land of the free
Horseshit! I have lived outside the US for many years and I pay no taxes to the US. What kind of crap are you trying to spread. You people that think you have it so bad in the US make me vomit. You have no idea how the rest of the world lives.
If you sold your bitcoins, use capital gains, short or long term. If you are holding bitcoins, no tax event has occurred
IANAL
IANAL
If you must move wealth out of Bitcoin, move it to Gold, Silver, Platinum... and avoid all the headaches moving to fiat would cause you.
Bearing in mind that these must be non-legal tender items. If they are coins, minted with a face value, then they are currency as well. Blocks of gold / silver / platinum don't count as currency, but gold / silver / platinum "currency" is the same thing for legal purposes.
great thanks me and my CPA decided to not go with FIFO or LIFO. He suggested we file my earnings as you would with stock shares. So we calculated from when the coins were mined to the end of the tax year and then "averaged" the earnings. That way when they do appreciate more i have already paid taxes on them (end of 2012 being around $15).
Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
Notice how everything your CPA said is his suggestion or opinion. I am not disregarding his opinion, but the reason why he is giving you suggestions is because there are no IRS or court precedents regarding bitcoin mining or trading. The best that any professional can do, your accountant included, is apply your specific business situation to the applicable tax regulations governing capital gains and small business taxation. I tend to agree with your accountants treatment of your mining business. I would comment that he is erring on the conservative side by not allowing business percentage use of your mining rig and utility costs. This is a sensible approach as it will allow for a higher tax rate on you. This is bad because it means more money out of your pocket, but it is good in that it gives the IRS less of an incentive to ask questions regarding your Bitcoin business. The fewer questions you have to answer from the IRS the better. Many times it is better to pay a little more tax in order not to have to answer those questions.Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
EDIT: I saw another thread where someone had the idea of claiming earnings as "gambling" only if over $5000... Since Bitcoins are not considered a true currency by the US, couldnt i claim that i was gambling by using GPU power to harvest coins and holding on to them? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1627264
I do NOT encourage you to dodge taxes. I RECOMMAND that you declare all your incomes including incomes in Bitcoin.
The explanations below are only a though experiment, for illustrative purpose, and used as an illustration of what you should seek to AVOID DOING, because that would represent an offence under income law.
Quote
The question you have to ask yourself is whether there is any way your holdings in BTC can be linked back to you.
Now, if you have such coins that can't be traced back to you, and you want to redeem them for cash, there are a few ways you can do that while remaining under the radar of IRS:
- If you have been solo mining and never moving your coins, you will have in your wallet as many new private addresses containing 50 / 25 BTC each as you found blocks. These cannot be linked back to you as long as you don't send them to an address that you have used for a transaction under your real identity, or any identity that could be traced back to you (you have to assume that the IRS in 5 or 10 years may have a much better technology to analyse the blockchain + information from exchange and large merchants they could use to connect the dots).
- If you have been mining using a pool under a pseudonym while making sure that nothing was leading back to you (email address included), and you never transfered the payout to an address that you have used for a transaction under your real identity, or any identity that could be traced back to you, the only existing link is the IP if the pool logged it and still have it in X years. That's a very very weak link, and unlikely unenforceable.
Now, if you have such coins that can't be traced back to you, and you want to redeem them for cash, there are a few ways you can do that while remaining under the radar of IRS:
- OTC trading: "virgin" blocks of 25 BTC / 50 BTC sell for a premium on the off-exchange market. Make sure to do the transaction in person and in cash, and don't give your real identity to your counterparty.
- Sell stuff to yourself for Bitcoins on ebay, with "in person delivery" so you aren't supposed to know the real ID of your buyer. Make sure the proceed remains within the limit set by IRS for private selling as individual. And keep all the records.
- Send the coins to a (close, trustable, and equally tax dodgy) relative who doesn't have taxable income, or a low taxable income, and have this relative withdraw the coins under his / her real name, in amounts high enough to be effective, but low enough to remain under the tax threshold. Make sure this relative *declares* this income and effectively receive tax clearance. Now the amount is clear from taxation, and you can have the relative offer it to you either officially using a bank transfer (if under the yearly limit set for donation / gift), or withdraw it as cash and give it to you in person. You may want to prepare a scenario to explain why your relative got that free money coming from nowhere in first place (sold something in-person for Bitcoins for instance).
- Send the coins to someone who is fiscal resident in a country where capital gains are not taxable. This person can withdraw the money without bothering about hiding anything. Then have this person give you the money either officially (if under the yearly limit set for donation / gift) or by cash. Or even better, sell something to this person on ebay, and receive officially the proceeds by wire (so long as the amount remains within the limits set by IRS for private selling as individual).
great thanks me and my CPA decided to not go with FIFO or LIFO. He suggested we file my earnings as you would with stock shares. So we calculated from when the coins were mined to the end of the tax year and then "averaged" the earnings. That way when they do appreciate more i have already paid taxes on them (end of 2012 being around $15).
Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
Like IRS would know it if you are using your computer for gaming...
great thanks me and my CPA decided to not go with FIFO or LIFO. He suggested we file my earnings as you would with stock shares. So we calculated from when the coins were mined to the end of the tax year and then "averaged" the earnings. That way when they do appreciate more i have already paid taxes on them (end of 2012 being around $15).
Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
Since i use my mining computer for gaming and work i cannot write off the electricity he stated. But i can write off the video cards are expenses.
He stated if i build a dedicated mining rig.. or buy an ASIC that would be a pure business expense. And would be able to write it off during that tax year bought. He also stated if i mined in a dedicated room, part of my cooling bill and electricity bill can be written off.. but only if that room is used for purely business.
thought you all would want to know...
EDIT: I saw another thread where someone had the idea of claiming earnings as "gambling" only if over $5000... Since Bitcoins are not considered a true currency by the US, couldnt i claim that i was gambling by using GPU power to harvest coins and holding on to them? https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/m.1627264
I do NOT encourage you to dodge taxes. I RECOMMAND that you declare all your incomes including incomes in Bitcoin.
The explanations below are only a though experiment, for illustrative purpose, and used as an illustration of what you should seek to AVOID DOING, because that would represent an offence under income law.
Quote
The question you have to ask yourself is whether there is any way your holdings in BTC can be linked back to you.
Now, if you have such coins that can't be traced back to you, and you want to redeem them for cash, there are a few ways you can do that while remaining under the radar of IRS:
- If you have been solo mining and never moving your coins, you will have in your wallet as many new private addresses containing 50 / 25 BTC each as you found blocks. These cannot be linked back to you as long as you don't send them to an address that you have used for a transaction under your real identity, or any identity that could be traced back to you (you have to assume that the IRS in 5 or 10 years may have a much better technology to analyse the blockchain + information from exchange and large merchants they could use to connect the dots).
- If you have been mining using a pool under a pseudonym while making sure that nothing was leading back to you (email address included), and you never transfered the payout to an address that you have used for a transaction under your real identity, or any identity that could be traced back to you, the only existing link is the IP if the pool logged it and still have it in X years. That's a very very weak link, and unlikely unenforceable.
Now, if you have such coins that can't be traced back to you, and you want to redeem them for cash, there are a few ways you can do that while remaining under the radar of IRS:
- OTC trading: "virgin" blocks of 25 BTC / 50 BTC sell for a premium on the off-exchange market. Make sure to do the transaction in person and in cash, and don't give your real identity to your counterparty.
- Sell stuff to yourself for Bitcoins on ebay, with "in person delivery" so you aren't supposed to know the real ID of your buyer. Make sure the proceed remains within the limit set by IRS for private selling as individual. And keep all the records.
- Send the coins to a (close, trustable, and equally tax dodgy) relative who doesn't have taxable income, or a low taxable income, and have this relative withdraw the coins under his / her real name, in amounts high enough to be effective, but low enough to remain under the tax threshold. Make sure this relative *declares* this income and effectively receive tax clearance. Now the amount is clear from taxation, and you can have the relative offer it to you either officially using a bank transfer (if under the yearly limit set for donation / gift), or withdraw it as cash and give it to you in person. You may want to prepare a scenario to explain why your relative got that free money coming from nowhere in first place (sold something in-person for Bitcoins for instance).
- Send the coins to someone who is fiscal resident in a country where capital gains are not taxable. This person can withdraw the money without bothering about hiding anything. Then have this person give you the money either officially (if under the yearly limit set for donation / gift) or by cash. Or even better, sell something to this person on ebay, and receive officially the proceeds by wire (so long as the amount remains within the limits set by IRS for private selling as individual).
Actually, post-finCEN guidance DOES matter. Before, you could report dollar earnings from bitcoin mining without worrying about it. Now you have to ask yourself: Am I incriminating myself as operating as a Money Transmitter or Money Service Business without a license when I report dollar earnings from bitcoin mining?
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