Topic: Restrict newbies from posting in the lending board? (Read 1084 times)

I didn't have much hope of this suggestion being implemented, but it was worth a shot.

In the mean time, I've created a thread which theymos has been kind enough to pin at the top of the lending section: https://bitcointalksearch.org/topic/lending-board-rules-of-engagement-attention-lenders-and-borrowers-5460744

Hopefully the post will help keep the honest people from making silly mistakes that end with them being tagged and labeled scammers.

Please take a look and let me know if you have any suggestions, or think I should add anything I overlooked.

I have noticed that there are newbies posting in the lending section, sometimes it makes you wonder if they are just teasing to request a loan that is too big and then say collateral, and the others are non-collateral and the size of the loan is also the same.

       That's why I support that thing that the newbies should be restricted in the lending section, now you say that it is self-moderated by the lenders, it will just be extra work for them and a waste of time.

Well, I feel like you still got some anger for what happened a year ago. I understand that you guys don't have a good understanding, but let's not continue what started over a year ago. Once both of you forget those days, you can start your day with a fresh mind and produce quality content (Which you guys already do). Look at the way she responded to me. I don't think she took it with a heavy heart. I would suggest the same if you don't mind.

let's forget what you guys were. But, I am happy to see that you did not take it too seriously. Both of you guys are good and prominent members of the forum. If that fight still continues, I will feel guilty for mentioning you guys.

Oh my memory! I guess both of us were asshole back then 🤣

I see few topics which are totally useless on that board every week. They ask for loan and others just troll them. It's an entertainment though.

I do not think it has ever done before, no. I am fairly new in this community so I am not the best source to reference the past actions by the administration. Since I joined, the forum has remained the same.

They only example of implementation-and-reversal I can think of  was the existence of the so-called Newbie jail. It was put in place and then removed, I do not know how much it lasted, though.

Still, it was just a random recommendation or opinion I had on how we could try and improve the life for those who do business in the forum. 

Has that ever happened in the forum? I mean that of doing a temporary test to see the results and decide. As far as I remember, theymos takes his time to make changes, but when he makes them they are permanent, he doesn't test to see.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, I just don't think it's the way he usually acts.

I personally do not spend much time in the lending section of the forum, but the occasions I have took a look at it, I recall several instances of newbies asking for unrealistic quantities without offering collateral. They do not even care to read the sticky thread with the rules about loans.  

So I can understand the frustration of those who seek to do business and have to deal with those unsavory users. That being said, I would be in favor on giving this suggestion from OP.a try and restrict new users from participating in that board, for some weeks and see what happens, if the results are not satisfactory, it can be reversed and deal with it with the usual tools we already have: ignore lists, red tags, trust, etc.  

People are looking for some necessary boards like Cybersecurity and Privacy and some others are looking for their Local boards as well. I am not sure if it takes extra time to code or maybe theymos just felt like those are not necessary at this moment. But, I don't think we will have a new board for similar reasons. I mean we have a Lending board, Adding another board for a similar purpose won't be approved.

Yes. It's a good option. Read above.

Well if you want to open a lending thread you could always make it "self moderated" and delete all the unwanted customers.
I know that's extra work but an option.

I think giving away loans can be a good business. Seeing how many loans for example Shasan gives out in a month I bet the % he collects adds up to a nice extra amount.

This is very accurate. Newbies and I will suggest Jr.member also should be restricted from posting in Lending section.
Just 2 days back I went to Lending board to see how it works because even I wanted to start lending out money but I was disappointed.

All I could see was newbies asking for loans and getting tagged in return. It was all that I could see and no real benefits from lending.
If newbies can get away with it so easily by creating new accounts then there's no point for them to make posts in the section at first place.

If there were more real lending posts out there then it would have interested not only me but many others.
Further more, moderators would have to spend lest time moderating this section.

Recently there have been a couple of newbies who have been trolling not just the lender's threads it anyone's threads that are started ranging from Legendary down to newbies.

Take away the newbies and the trolling would stop overnight.

---

---

If I can use an analogy to answer your observation...Grey areas wouldn't occurr if things were more black or white.

I'm glad we both feel there is a need for change from how things are at the moment.

Yeah, I had a hunch that that's how you might feel. (Don't ask me why, you just seem to be the type that finds rigid rule enforcement to be a very satisfying thing.)

I'm looking at this problem through a different lens than you, I suppose, and I'm basing my thinking on what DireWolfM14 is hoping to achieve:

Someone would have to walk me through how to do that, but the issue DireWolfM14 raises is newbies are total unknowns and as such are more likely to walk off with funds acquired in a loan than a user who has climbed the ranks through posting thoughtful posts that along the way are merited.  Lenders facilitating loans can see their posts and get a feel for the application whereas newbies don't have any credibility at all and therefore shouldn't apply for a loan.

Fiat banks don't give loans to children.  Street lenders ^{(*cough* sharks)} likewise wouldn't lend to children (not without collateral I would imagine).

Blocking newbies from my view isn't what I'm hoping to achieve in my support of what DireWolfM14 is proposing, it's blocking newbies from being in the lending section totally.

While that is a cool idea (using a bot to enforce local rules in a self-moderated thread), it's got nothing to do with what I suggested.

You're talking about individual threads, and I'm talking about whole boards. You're talking about deleting posts, and I'm talking about hiding them.

What I'm saying is that people have their own ideas about OP's suggestion (whether and how it should be implemented), and a consensus is unlikely to be reached, so why not think about the problem in a decentralized way?

If people could define personalized "board rules" that hid posts (on a given board) according to some criteria (probably given by entering an expression in some simple programming language), then we wouldn't have to agree on anything and we could all just set things up how we like them:

(*) DireWolfM14 would set his "Marketplace -> Lending" expression (somewhere in settings) to: exclude($memberRank < 2), because that's how he wants it to work (doesn't want to see posts from newbies on the lending board).

(*) Timelord2067 would set his to: exclude($memberRank < 3), because that's how he wants it to work (even more restrictive, only wants to see posts from "Members" and above on the lending board).

(*) Someone might decide that they don't want to see posts on the lending board from anyone with less than 100 merits, and they would set their expression to: exclude($memberEarnedMerits < 100).

(*) People that don't care would leave their expression box empty (and nothing would change for them). Alternatively, the forum might pre-populate it with: exclude($memberRank < 2) as a kind of "soft" policy (i.e. one that you can override, but only by going into your settings and deleting the expression).

Now, obviously none of this prevents newbies from posting on the lending board in the first place (which is probably a good thing considering theymos' stance on restricting freedoms) but it does solve the problem of lenders ever having to deal with any of those posts, or even see them (if they make use of this feature, that is).

It's also general-purpose and (I believe) would find uses on other boards. I know it seems like a seriously complicated thing to pull off (and it kind of is, I guess) but it's essentially just a very beefed-up version of my existing member filtering patch (i.e. you can think of that patch as being a special case of what I've been outlining here: whenever you click the diamond "on" in that patch, it's basically the same thing as one of these hypothetical exclusion expressions being in effect).

(I'm not suggesting that myself or anyone else should be working on this, it's a pretty heavy lift with lots of cross-cutting concerns, performance considerations and thorny problems to work through; it would take a few months to implement properly. All I'm doing in this post is clearing up confusion and explaining what I meant in my previous post.)

If i can get your point clearly here, you are referring to situations where newbies will even be disallowed to post on some particular threads made by members of the forum, not only on the boards but this time being extended to threads, i can partially agree with this because if we are to close eyes for the bad ones to byepass then the good would have also gone together with them while our eyes remain closed, which means not every newbie is a newbie, secondly bot every newbie is a troller or spammer, they can in rare cases although give upto the quality of what a higher rank individuals can deliver.

 Let look at the consequences also before suggesting such, we were once a newbie remember, and they should not be deprived right for posting where they feel they have something to offer except on certain conditions like the board(s) where the forum restricted them from posting, members could abuse the opinion and everyone restricting newbies from making a reply on their post.

Newbie never ask to borrow money by PM. they seek loans in the landing board. however, such incidents are not seen regularly. sometimes it is done by scammers and spammers. So I don't think it is logical to keep the pm option closed for the newbie. Because a newbie may need to pm to some senior members to share some kind of information. or they may try to pm for any help in distress. this forum is a friendly place so don't be hard on anyone here. In this case you can just ignore that post if a newbie opens a landing topic or if you are annoyed by someone's post's


Just click Ignore button..

I have no skills creating code.

How does the above prevent newbies creating their own threads seeking loans?  From what I can tell, my own recollection is that most newbies in recent times are asking for loans without providing collateral or with goods that are not crypto related which is contrary to the "unofficial" (wink wink they are official when we want them to be wink wink) rules contained in threads pinned to this section with titles such as "no collateral = no loan" or words to that effect.

These rules aren't enforced by the admin/mods, so either we get admin/mods who do enforce the rules, OR, we change the rules by banning the newbies and Jr Members.

Until then, newbies and jr members will continue to receive negative trust feedbacks and flags as appropriate.

I am not in support and I don't oppose. What you want is to restrict the future of this forum. Since you encountered spammers you are now freaking out.

I would never block my clients.What i would do is to tackle them and if for some.reason I cannot.then I would ignore them.

What's the reason for that? 

For a newbie all boards are new.

This is the slippery slope I mentioned.

I'd choose adding a new board with certain restrictions over restricting existing boards.

I've seen similar suggestions before. Why not make use of the self-moderation feature? It could even be maintained by a user bot.

This is a 50/50 approach afaik, if loans are accessible by users with collateral there is definitely no restriction on rank, it just gets bad when newbies with no reputation  whatsoever start posting loan requests when they know very well they don't  qualify for one and won't get it anywhere...

Alternative to the proposed is giving out soft bans to newbies requesting  for loans without collateral and if the user is a repeat offender then the nuke can be deployed(permanent Ban).

Btw are we saying newbies can't offer loans if the lending board becomes off limit to them?

AFAIK there is no section like that on this forum but I know there are similar ones in other forums.

In general it is for a different reason that I know of, it is because controversial things are posted on them that you don't want to be able to find at the click of a search engine.

As there is no such section in this forum, I doubt that it will be implemented, in any case at best we will convince theymos to have the lending section restricted in a similar way to the Serious Discussion one. But that, if he decides to change it, is not going to be tomorrow. He usually takes his time to make changes to the forum.

I am editing this because I just thought of the Investigations section which is closed to the public, but I don't know if it is available to all ranks.

Another approach to this topic could be to make the whole lending section inaccessible to newbies. Not only for posting, but also for reading. Basically a closed section from member level and up.

Don't know if there is any section in this forum that works that way but in other communities you also have something like an "expert area" which you can only enter when you meet certain criteria.

And about the neg feedback given to newbies asking. I think it's alright since we know these people won't come back anyway. Still there should be a way for them to redeem themselves if they actually become a part of the forum so they can get rid of the red tag.
Blaming Timelord2067 for giving these feedbacks is nonsense. Condoras, Shasan and others also do that, and it's their good right to send a warning to the rest of us members.

Newbies already have a similar limitation, they cannot post on the Serious Discussion boards. I am all for this.

Having a bunch of newbies who keep asking for a loan without collateral or anything to end up red tagged seems to me a worse effect for them than simply limiting them from posting there until they are at least a jr member.

Yeah I guess that could save a lot of people from seeing shit they don't want to see, just like a general ignore button but these has to deal with general specification on the particular rank of account or post from those certain ranks you don't want to see. I donno if am getting the whole set up correct and please put me in line if am out but if I am, I would say its a nice idea but there are some little disadvantage to it but its normal as in good work advantage and disadvantage must be there. And the only disadvantage for now which I feel it might possibly have is the going to be the rate of growth of newbie account delayed because when this option is implemented most reputable newbie accounts that will have grown fast here in creating good works will also suffer from this new setting as the restriction will probably affect every account on the particular rank been restricted

That's actually quite an interesting take on this issue. You're saying (I think) that instead of making this proposal a forum-wide change, there should be a way for people to set up "post filters" themselves?

Just thinking out loud here, but being able to specify a (carefully sanitized) expression (maybe PHP, maybe something custom) to define per-board post filters would be a pretty cool feature!

OP could then go into his "Post Filtering" settings and under "Marketplace -> Lending" could enter an expression like: exclude($memberRank < 2) (where 0 == "Brand New", 1 == "Newbie", 2 == "Jr. Member", etc).

I'd probably use an expression like: exclude($memberPostCount > 50 && $memberEarnedMerits / $memberPostCount < 0.5) to clean up my view of certain boards.

I also like that this feature is in keeping with the forum's mission to maximize freedom: people would retain the ability to post (mostly) wherever they want without too many restrictions, but would also gain the ability to control their experience and (attempt to) make their time spent reading the forum more pleasant.

Edit: There's an "era mismatch" bug in my second example expression: either $memberEarnedMerits should be changed to $memberTotalMerits (i.e. $memberEarnedMerits + $memberAirdroppedMerits), or $memberPostCount should be replaced with $memberPostCountNewEra (or something like that, you get my point).

Thanks to OP @DireWolfM14 for bringing this topic to infornt of us. Not only the lending topic but there are many other topics where the newbies are spamming whether they understand it or not, and which is very annoying to us many times. And I think that by newbies it will happen, that's normal.
And so I think it is necessary to add a setting that not only prevents newbies from spamming in the Lending topic but also restricts them in all places where they can spam. And the first thing that can be done for this is that, for example, we have a setting in the PM option where we can prevent our inbox from newbies PMing.



I think such an option should be there for op of topic where he can restrict newbies as per his wish.

Issues of life and life unending problems know no ranks, creed or age. Though I find it amusing whenever I stumble on posts by newbies asking for loans here (as I know most of them aren't genuine), I still believe it's within their limit to exercise that right to ask. I like how theymos allows newbies breathing space here. I'm sure he knows what he's doing with that. We all were once noobs, newbies, greenhorns, novices and amateurs like them before we got to where we're today. I think the greater responsibility and discretion should lie with the veterans or high ranked members who are going to be lending to these newbies seeking loans. They should be able to sieve through to know those who are genuine and those who aren't and do the needful with such discernment.

I also don't support seing a newbie without having any experience about the forum to jump into the lending section to demand for loan, for crying out loud this is not a lending platform, it's bitcoin discussion community, we have to consider a number of newbies that register each day without staying on the forum and left, should such people be granted access to take a loan where they are not been established?


No segregation here and don't make it look like any, if you think you're interested in loan, stay for a while to attain a particular rank and understand the forum and read the rules, get familiar with the boards and read also the loan requirements before applying if eligible, though tagging them may not be the absolute solution but putting them on ignore list is a better way.

I'm not a big fan of implementing new restrictions in a forum where newbies can't post images anymore, find it hard to use some functionalities because of time limitations like the one in the search option, can't wear an avatar and can't post in certain sections like Ivory Tower, Archival or Serious Discussion. Don't take me wrong, I think that these restrictions are there for a reason, but it is also true that they are an entry barrier for many.

If newbies were restricted from posting in the lending board, what would be the difference between that and also restricting them from participating in other sections inside Marketplace, or in the Alternate cryptocurrencies board? If the goal is to avoid scams, wouldn't it be more beneficial to forbid the newbies to post scam ICO ANNs or fraudulent services? IMO, no: that way we would be judging the just for sinners.

I consider that a large part of the active members of the forum are quite direct and critical to some extent. If something smells like a scam, one or another will point it out. I personally find it better to control that in a case by case basis rather than to prefer draconian measures like the proposed one.

I don't want to comment on this matter. I don't know if you get me wrong. But I did not mean your feedback was inaccurate. I said it might look like the feedback is inaccurate at first impression. But, if you are regular there, You will understand the frustration.

They apply for no collateral loan and their cause is Trust me, bro! They are not familiar with this forum, for sure. It's not like they don't know their loan request will be rejected. They are just trying their luck, knowing their loan request won't be granted.

That might be because you have already stated your opposition ?


Can I send you a PM, please?

You can removed newbies posting in lending board actually with your board topic, its not has reason accepted newbies account apply for loan because their account not has values yet. Many newbies account try to apply loan not only with your loan board only but also I saw they are applying with another loan board. I don't know what are the values of their account and brave for applying loan with higher amount and I saw with this user swiftxi not only apply loan in one board but try with another board. First applying loan have rejected but he tried on another loan board without think the reason first applying have been reject.

I have also seen many new members who apply for loans only after creating an account. I don't understand on what basis they apply and on what basis the lender will grant them the loan. Due to their activities, many are frustrated and even those who qualify for loans are often denied loans. It would have been better if the posting rules were such that some members of certain ranks could apply for loans. If such steps are taken to prevent spamming, it will be good for both lenders and borrowers.

I respect your opinion. But I am sorry. I did not like it.  . Mods can't be online 24/7 and look into the lending board. They have to check all boards equally. I always wondered how Mods always check two posts in a row from the same user and merge them. Do they have any panel where the system automatically filters those posts? If not, they are doing hard work already. This single task needs a lot of time to complete it.


I wrote what I saw. I did not check everyone's trust page. I have checked your trust page and noticed you had left feedback to newbies asking for no collateral loan. I am not arguing whether it's the correct or incorrect use of feedback.

Like I said in my previous post, policy governing the lending thread should be reviewed if there is any already existing so as to avoid further spamming by newbies. It is worrisome that most of these newbies do not read at all they just hop in and start applying for loan without any collateral since the loan is void of collateral. Well, I think this  time it should be clearly and boldly written for easy view for them to see so that no one would cry to have been victimized by anybody when it happens.

With this, the possibility of spamming the thread might likely reduce a bit and every one would take caution while playing by the rules.

Incorrect.

I was the third or fourth person to mark the trust feedback pages on each occasion.

Please, Get your facts straight instead of being an echo chamber.

It's not like someone will get a loan just by applying for it. If a new member applies for a loan, the other member of the forum who is interested in giving the loan must consider whether the loan can be given to the new member or on what basis the loan should be given to the new member. But the problem is that this threat is spammed a lot by new members, so to avoid this spamming, it won't hurt to make a rule to prevent new members from posting in this section.

I like Zilon's suggestion, but yeah, the mods are up to their elbows already, I don't think asking to pile on any more reports is the right way to handle it.  If the mods are expected to automatically delete any newbie's request for an unsecured loan, then it just shouldn't be allowed in the first place.

Which give me an idea: @theymos, is there a way to add a splash page for low-ranked accounts before they can make a post in certain boards?  Maybe just a little warning that low-ranked accounts asking for unsecured loans can be damaging to the account's health.  A link to the sticky board discussing collateral would also be helpful.  Maybe that would be enough to dissuade the legit newbies from doing something dumb, and any that get through have been sufficiently warned.



There have been a few over the years that I've been here and active in the lending board.  Most have tapered off their activity, but there is one recent newbie lender who's currently active.  To me it looks like he's harvesting other people's KYC docs, but the jury is still out on that one.

It's not possible for Mods to keep tracking a user and check how many times he created a thread or posted on a specific topic and asked for a loan. Also, It's not possible for Mods to respond quickly or instantly to delete such posts. It will increase their workload. Moreover, It's nothing compared to bounty boards. But, the community members care about this section because it is a severe section where people look for urgent money, which sometimes helps them survive. Trolls in such sections will ruin it.

Have you ever seen a newbie Lender offer loans to others? I always see newbie accounts ask for loans without any forum history. They do not intend to return the amount if they get the loan. They will lose nothing if they don't repay the loan amount. Also, It's not possible to catch them if someone runs away with crypto money. If a newbie has a valid contribution, earning ten merits for his contribution is not very hard.

Instead of completely restricting newbies from posting in the lending sub board, their posts containing loan request should be deleted instead that is users can report newbies requesting loans to the board mod and the mod deletes that posts

The restriction might come if the user keep making such posts. My reason is so that if a newbie has any valid contribution to make in the lending sub board their rank shouldn't be a hinderance.

maybe he sees you as one of the guardians of this forum. Look at what you're contributing, it's even bigger than what a mod can do. It's just that they're taking you in a different way from what you're giving, or it's not, only he knows why
LOL   I really thought so, I don't appreciate this jokes  
but the story is he's still spamming even without any merit, he spams many sections, this can't be changed 

Damn, that's the worst type of thing to have to deal with.  I hope he's feeling better soon.


Believe me when I say that freedom is very important to me as well, which is why I love this forum so much.  In general, I don't want to restrict newbies either, but there are other rules and restrictions that are largely in place to improve the quality of the forum, which is the intent of my suggestion.


That's kind of a non-issue, really.  If they go about spamming the forum with low value posts, they aren't likely to rank up anyway.  Case in point is user 16xypjnxlrew.  After months of harassing lenders and spamming the lending board, he come to the conclusion that only people who've earned merit will qualify for a non-collateral loan.  So, he ventured out into other areas of the forum with the intent of "contributing," but to this day hasn't earned a single merit.  This is what the merit system is meant to prevent, and it's been working so far.


This is the current status quo, and it's not great.  Like LoyceV mentioned, it's essentially spamming the trust system with a bunch of red-tagged newbie accounts that are likely to be abandoned, a new one created, and the process just starts all over again.

Full support for this suggestion.

Some people on the board ( I think some here know which users I mean ) go and invade other peoples threads trying to spread their agenda like "why can he get a loan and I can't" , "I get treated so unfair", "I have (totally useless) collateral" .

These subjects also write PMs here and even contact via telegram (actually 2 people called me at 3am in the morning with ever having talked to them in private before) . They basically harass other users.

Something should be done against these people and I certainly hope that would be possible in any way!

I've been mentioned several times in this thread, but I had other things to deal with so here's my late reply.

It's not big, but it's also another step on a slippery slope. Every time I see someone argue for more restrictions, I appreciate theymos' hands-off approach more.

Lol. I like the post because it's part of what made me change my mind on adding more restrictions. I'd love to get rid of all the spammers and scammers, but I wouldn't like to join a forum where I'd have to jump through many hoops myself.

Allow me to quote theymos again (I bet you didn't see this one coming):
I've come to realize some people can't be saved, and may need to learn the hard way. People are still falling for the "money doubling scam", online and IRL. People need to apply common sense before sending some stranger their money.

I agree that's not the best motivation to join, but is it really worse than joining to complain about a captcha or not understanding the basics of transaction fees? My point being: no matter why someone joins, they may stick around.

What do you want me to do if someone gets scammed by/with Paypal? I can tell you I don't like it, but I'm realistic enough to know I can't prevent it either. Literally the first sticky thread on the Currency exchange board starts with "Beware of PayPal". What can I do?

So, follow-up question: why am I in that list? I have zero control over scammers.

This trolling might actually give other Newbies the wrong impression. If they think a Newbie got a loan, more of them will try the same thing.

I care! Too many users have inaccurate negative feedback already, and it basically reduces the value of the warning. Excluding a user who hasn't left any feedback doesn't change anything. I agree on point 3) though: ignore them!

This is not a permanent solution. They don't care about those newbie accounts with no forum history. Creating another account and continuing their actions like bounty participants is easy. They Don't have to pay evil fees until they get banned, and their IP gets some evil points. Since asking for a loan in the lending section doesn't violate forum rules, they don't have any chance of getting banned. I noticed some newbies got negative feedback because they requested a loan. I cannot remember who tagged them. Oh, I just found it was Timelord2067 who tagged some newbies for asking for no collateral loans.

For Instance, It looks like this is not the correct use of the feedback system. But I understand his frustration. I don't visit the lending board. So, I am unaware of how many cases you guys have seen. You might be frustrated if you are regular there and see such newbies ask for no collateral loans every day.

Ask yourself what would satoshi do, he did create this forum and bitcoin free for everyone to use and not only for a few people.

Its very frustrating when newbies go and ask for a loan I agree, but its not fair that they get negative feedback one second after and left out in the cold.
I know its topic thats around that explains and give tips how to behave but to be fair how many read them.
a warning if you do that and if you continue then negative feedback is the way to go.

We all are under satoshi on this forum and this forum is for everyone no mater what rank people have.
I think it was a reason that bitcoin was and is a free thing that everyone can get.

And also.. i start to think more and more this is people creating alts for just trolling with people on the forum, they already know they wont get a loan they just want people to waste their time with their angry answers, if they where get totally ignored and nobody would care problem would be gone maybe atleast i have stop to reply to them now

Probably would just be easier to

1) Leave them some negative feedback and encourage others to do the same.
2) Start a flag and encourage others to support it.
3) Add them to your ignore list
4) ~ in your trust list.

And then move on. Is it 100% proper use of flags and feedback. Perhaps not, but who cares. They are here to troll / scam and after a while the person(s) who have been actively cluttering up the lending board will move on. If not, they are just wasting time but at least not cluttering up the board elsewhere.

-Dave

Oops! If this happens, it calls for a serious attention and maybe moderators step up to delete such posts as soon as possible before the post will have a prey.
SEE it from the other side, if newbies are totally restricted from the lending board, how about (usually another unsuspecting newbie) who is a lender with good intentions, he will be affected also.
Well, a serious newbie lender should be able to afford copper membership.

I have seen this scenario alot of time where high rank members try to pull a fun on a particular thread and when the newbies reply steadily, it will gradually turn a troll threads.

If newbies asking for non collateral loan is called begging, could also an established member asking for non collateral loan be called begging? Maybe No!
Not begging per say but there are some tones used by some of this suspecting newbies which tries to play with emotion of the lenders. I quietly chuckle when I see such posts.

It has been done like this, those newbies got tagged and warned, but sometime some users playing fun or joking about that. There's no standard and rules for any users to reply, so it's better for the moderators to lock the thread instead.

I'd say when a newbie asking a loan without collateral, it's similar like begging in a different way. As we know begging isn't allowed in this forum and the moderators will immediately delete those topic.

Did you mean this thread I would like to get 0.005 BTC? you need to recheck the link he posted  

oh, that's not it, I see, I remember shasan loaned a newbie some money 2 days ago, if i remember correctly, sometimes they still put their trust in the newbie, not all 
sure, what's easier than when you take money from a stranger and walk away, they don't even know who you are. And when your account gets a red flag, you throw it away, open another account, repeat the process, wait for someone else with great faith.

I really respect the people who are lending, they have a really great faith 

Newbies concoct all kinds of sob stories and invariably someone (usualy another unsuspecting newbie) will "lend" them funds only to have the borrower not return.

A newbie who lends just enough often enough could then progress to member ...etc and become Legendary then carpet pull / exit scam with the Jackpot such as walking away with privkeys, or worse still the bag of the Forum itself having gained trust wholly through taking out loans.

Along the way hardcore scammers just ask for loans and walk away with the lender's funds.  We've seen it happen all to often - check out the scam accusation threads if you don't believe me.

It's kinda I arrived late but I still have to contribute to the ongoing topic in the following format;

• At first, you understood theymos mission of making the forum as free as possible.  This is nice. I have seen similar suggestions about newbies but theymos didn't act and all is well since the DT power is not in the hnads of the said newbies
• I don't think that there is any lender in the lending board who is willing to lend to any newbie without a collateral
• So, to avoid spam, such newbies should be ignored outrightly or be warned and if they persist, they'll be tagged and everyone moves on

Maybe I'm playing the odd role as I differ from the OP

I'll support the motion... Since they aren't gonna be given a consideration on any loan request (except they've got a good collateral to offer), YEAH?that's just unnecessary when they're found creating multiple threads in there - most times, they have an idea who's qualified for any loan, but they just feel if they could throw shits at the wall, maybe it'll stick.
Other times, it's difficult to know how effective the lending board is, since you'll only find some comparable nuisance in a cordon. How about if they're true newbies that are willing to be honest and follow the rules in there? With 'em ascertained collaterals too?? Isn't that gonna look like lending in here is limited and controlled by the forum which, I'm sure, that ain't supposed to be so??
Edit: what's this raucous of Loyce not being a staff and so on?

Sandra 🧑‍🦰

he's not saying that LoyceV is a staff, he's just listing them, mentioning them in a list  right? Somehow, I think he's right. Maybe the scammers are too many, they can't control everything, or maybe they're just too tired of it. I don't judge, just a passing thought, anyway, everything is fine, there are always other people protecting the victim.

Literally speaking, I didn't mean that the matter is quite a difficult one per say, but rather that the times are difficult to putting trust on people so easily as we don't even know who to trust nowadays and that preventive measures should be taken in all situations irrespective of what others may think. For the decision to restrict newbies from engaging in the lending board should be viewed as a necessary preventive measure.

LoyceV is not a staff member.

When it comes to spamming and meaningless replies, I believe the lending board is a confidential place in the forum to help forum users in need; there is no reason for the thread to be spammed because it is not a discussion thread like the Bitcoin Discussion you mentioned.


The lending board has its guidelines and rules, which have some clear restrictions, especially for newbies and junior members in the forum, but the newbies failed to read the rules and went straight to start spamming the thread, even though some newbies with collateral may be granted the loans, which is why the OP decided to create this thread to prevent them from spamming the thread.

If we keep in mind that Moderators work well when you report a post, then it's not necessary to restrict newbies from posting in the lending or in other boards. Lending board isn't that spammed after all compared to Bitcoin Discussion and some other boards where people open meaningless threads and bunch of people post meaningless replies. And I think the more offer lenders get, the more beneficial for them. There is a chance that newbie comes to them with collateral loan request. So, statistically, even if one out of 100 newbie requests loan and offers collateral, it will be beneficial for lenders than zero offer from newbies.

As do I.

The world not to mention scamming has changed a lot just in the last five years - given this thread is predominantly in favour of the restriction being implemented, then it should be responded to by whomever has the final say.

---

---

PayPal is another area where scammers are preying on unsuspecting forum members yet neither the Admin/mods, LoyceV nor theymos seem interested in intervention to protect such forum members who have been scammed by their continued silence on the matter.

Too hard? Not really.  Just restrict access to newbies and Jr Members from those sections.

Any non collateral loan request by Jr Memeber and Full Member should not be entertained by the lenders, that simple! I do not think they should be restricted. The might be some who will have the accepted collateral to apply for a loan.

As for newbies, indeed they have made a mess of the lending boards and should be restricted. If not then they would continue with the spam by creating new IDs on that board.

If restricting newbie to post in lending board is too harsh, it's better if the moderators to consider give a temporary ban like a week or two weeks due to spamming. Forum is too friendly for trolls and spammers.

Why should restricting on currency exchange section? I don't see any reason about it, the old or high rank user can ask the newbie to send first or using an escrow. Just be careful if you exchange with PayPal and such which the payment could be revert.

I don't see this matter is a difficult time and the suggestion isn't a difficult decision.

I would also add jr members as well as newbies being banned from posting in the lending section (and there would be a case to make for the currency exchange section being added to that list, too).

It should be like the Investigations board where you need to be at least "Member" rank or above or buy a copper membership to see the Lending board. Besides, most lenders have merit requirements which automatically exclude newbies and junior members anyway.

I'm not supporting this out of the reason to prevent mindless arguments on the Lending board, as much as because newbies are technically shadowbanned already from using the board for its intentional purpose (getting a loan). I feel differently about currency exchange board, because escrow is always possible, whereas the purpose of a loan precludes the use of an escrow in the first place.


In this case though, the only people who are flooding the lending board are not spammers, but rather ironically the demographic that theymos says will go through the trouble to join (scammers, get-rich-quickers, etc.), while it's true that not all scams will be stopped by hiding the Lending board, it will stop the majority of them.

Besides, a person should not join Bitcointalk solely for the purpose of getting a loan, and I'd imagine you'd agree with me on this one too.

Sometimes I find your response is predictable. When I saw this topic title, I thought if LoyceV commented on this post, He must mention theymos and his famous post about restricting newbies. Come on, LoyecV, Upgrade yourself and say something from your perspective (I know you do). I find it helpful to limit newbies from posting on the lending board. It's not like they will be restricted from participating in the forum and not allowed to share their opinion. I mean, I have a point as well. Don't you think so?

You didn't say that. Did you? Oh, I don't think you will say that when you see someone is going to send money to a newbie who doesn't have a good or no forum history. As you said, once in a while, you can't stop responding when you see a newbie want to buy 500000 Bitcoins. It would be best if you didn't stop yourself from responding in such a case as well 

• Laugh at random people less. 

It's only a pity if it turns out that some new users really have an honest initiative to get loans here at the end of their struggle, while we don't know that and can only generalize the assumption that all newbies are suspect. In the end (most cases) we just refuse and laugh it off if they doesn't comply with the default "no collateral, no loan" terms.

Of course I strongly support this proposal, but would this really prevent users from sending requests on other boards?

The fact that this platform gives her members the opportunity to get loan does not mean some people without much activities here would want to abuse or misuse the  it for nothing. Although I align with OP on this matter but I believe lenders should have their own requirements for a borrower meet before getting the loan they applied for.

As a matter of fact, no lender with his or her clear senses would take such risk giving out a loan to a new bie with no much activity and reputation. I termed that a suicide mission for the lender because they would not see anything back in return of the borrower runs away because they would have nothing to loss as the account is of no worth.

If anybody must apply for loan, atleast the person must have been able to attain some rank valid for loan as collateral otherwise nothing for them.

I think that any newbie after reading rules of engagement for loan application on this platform still ignores  and goes further to apply for loan as a new bie should have their account flagged as they have made us believe that they are possible scammers who wants to abscond with funds without much stress and collateral to show for.
It is am intentional act by these newbie account holders to request for loan which they know they are not qualified for.

The ingenuity of your recommendation is something commended and like other members I do align with your idea. Like how reasonable does it seem having someone join an organisation and starting up with a request for a loan from the organization without having contributed in anyway to the development of it. For it therefore entails that your obsession for a loan is what drove your membership interest and nothing more.

There are some other child boards that newbies are restricted from participating with the idea of avoid trolling, spams and the lending board shouldn't be exempted anymore.

It's true the forum wasn't created with the intention of restricting members from accessing certain areas of the forum but unanticipated issues may arise that demands such decision. Like the popular saying goes: difficult times demands difficult decisions.

Sorry to intrude into this matter, for lending I believe they have some specific rules and guidelines or even a regulations that will qualify a user to borrow money from any lending service provider and as I read those rules correctly I noticed it will be too hard for a newbie to apply for a loan as the case may be I don't think if they have a big chance to be approved for the loan if they applied. So is left alone for the lender to decides on whom to give or not although I support your opinion to limits those newbies.

Then for the lenders they should also include something like "Any account that recently changed password or email will not qualify for loan" because those hackers may hack the account and apply for a loan without the lender knowing isn't from the original owner., Or not even allowing an account that just Wake up 2 to 1 month ago to be accepted for a loan despite any amount of merits earned within that few days they shouldn't be accepted for a loan.

I don't see limiting newbies' ability to post in the lending board as having a big affect on the forum.  Certainly not in the way theymos' quoted comments suggests it might.  Real users who create new accounts aren't coming here for handouts, and their ability to ask pertinent questions and learn from the community aren't going to be hampered by the inability to post in the lending board.

As much as I agree with the intent and sentiment of theymos's comment (and I do tremendously,) I don't think this comment applicable to my suggestion.


I'm guilty also, and honestly I feel dirty every time I snap at one of these newbies with the same drivel that I've posted numerous times.  I certainly don't want to give the appearance that I'm spamming my signature all over the lending board, but I'm not so sure others have the same reservation.


I absolutely 100% agree with eddie13 here, but again how applicable is this to the trends of newbies in the lending board?  Most who post a loan request within their first few posts get red-tagged, and don't come back anyway.  Any who come here only for the loan aren't likely to participate in other discussions regardless, so there's nothing lost.  If a newbie comes here only to request a loan and finds that he's incapable of posting a loan request, one of two things are likely to happen: He'll contribute to the forum until he is capable of posting his loan request, or he'll hit the road and never come back.  If it's the former, that would actually help the forum and in the process the newbie might realize there's more to this forum than a potential hand-out.  If it's the latter, then end result is the same as if newbie got red-tagged then took off.  


My suggestion isn't about protecting lenders or preventing defaulted loans, the lenders are quite capable of taking care of themselves.  My suggestion is about reducing spam and trolling, and keeping the lending board a clean and practical place to conduct business.

Like mk4 said, this is a total no-brainer; +1 all day long.

I get that this runs afoul of theymos' mission to make the forum as free as possible, and that is a principle I largely agree with, but there's no universe in which this particular proposal would cause more harm than good.

I've recently come across some threads that were about asking on why some boards were being restricted on newbies, to say the fact it's not every board is a newbie expected to post on because they are just that newbie they were being called, in lending, you will discover many threads whereby a newly registered newbie is demanding for loan permit without even taking his time to read the loan requirements for application, will this type of newbie now finds it a thing to do in reading the forum's rules and regulations if they can even read the rules on the thread they are posting on? Restricting them will do more better in controlling spam and trollings.

I see the benefits but I think a newbie with a valid collateral deserves a loan, provided the lender double checks the validity and the value of the collateral and considers the risks involved to outweigh the benefit of the business.

If the "Guild of Bitcointalk Lenders" make it strict that they will not lend to a newbie without a collateral then I dont think this restriction is necessary. They can weed out these threads or put the pesky newbies on "Ignore" mode.

Usually you can spammed on all social media DMs if you are lender and have those handles. It shows then and there that the person is desperate for money and most of them are without collateral.

---

With all due respect, I am pretty sure that all the lenders here would immediately jump in on a loan request from a newbie who provides a valid collateral, if that ever happens in real. I myself would, no shame in that, having a background of being a lender myself.

I support the suggestion. In the month of March, a newbie started a thread in the Beginners and Help board, I guess. He was complaining about how he could not get a loan from the bank after he offered to give them his university certificate as collateral, and he was thinking he could get a non coletaral loan here. Some members were suggesting he go through the lending board, but some members also specifically told him he could not get a loan here either, because he was just a newbie. So what I am trying to say is that some members here just think that any newbie could get a loan on the lending board, and when they make suggestions, they don't specify that a newbie cannot get a non-coletaral loan from the lending board, and it's those kinds of suggestions without warning that bring most of these newbies to the lending board.
 Some newbies are not smart enough to quickly discover the lending board on the first day they join the forum, they are able to do so with the help of some suggestions. it would be good if this your idea is being implemented.

+1 That would make sense because you're gonna need some trust to apply for a loan, it would prevent spamming and tagging which I think is the best thing to do. I mean no one would actually approve a loan of a newbie here for sure.


I guess having a certain number of posts would be great, like 300 post minimum so that they have some leverage to be able to post on the lending section.

This is such a no-brainer that I'm surprised you might be the first one who created this proposal. Agree with hugeblack that posting on the Lending board should be Member rank by default. Jr member rank is still too easy to attain.

+1 full support.

As much as I'd like to see more restrictions for Newbies, I think theymos has a point:

I'd say it's much better if people stop off-topic posts in response. There's no need to tell them they should try their bank because they don't have collateral, and there's no need to tell them they won't get a loan. Just ignore the topic.
The same goes for the Currency exchange board, and I'm guilty of it too. When a Newbie scammer asks to buy 500,000 Bitcoins in cash, once in a while I can't stop myself from responding. As long as scams aren't moderated, I'm with eddie13 on this:

---

---

Look at it from a Newbie's perspective: he joins a forum, and sees all those people loaded with Bitcoin handing out money! "I want in on that!" is a natural reaction.
I think we should stop protecting people from taking risks: if they're dumb enough to send their money to a Newbie with no forum history, they're on their own.

I doubt the rule you want will be implemented. It's obvious that these users asking for no collateral loans have 0 intention to repay the loan they are asking for and it's just as easy for you to skip the thread. Not all newbies are broke either, some may just have the collateral needed for a loan.

I mean the possibility of newbies to lend

Newbies that are not worth borrowing money, nothing to lose. I finalize it as scam attempt. We all know that the possibility of scam is high from the newbies because they have nothing to lose. The reputed members see the posts as unworthy.

+1. Even though chances are slim as we know theymos doesn't like restricting newbies.

---

Was there ever a case when newbie created lending topic and actually started lending the money to people in need?


This request has nothing to do with that.

If we refer to restrictions on serious discussion and ivory tower boards, the restrictions apply to all newbie accounts and there's no exception even the newbie had 10 positive feedback, become D1 member etc. But this restriction is lighter since they only need to buy a copper membership to post an offer on lending board.

Although someone who bought a copper membership rank aren't always legit, but this might reduce troll because someone can create a new account without pay anything and immediately post a crazy request.

but then how would the forum would know who to restrict at the get-go? do newbies need to be restricted as a default and would only be exempted once someone, a mod or a staff verified that the newbie was in that board to actually post a lending thread?

Anyone can come to this forum to lend (I do not mean borrow). Very possible that no lenders are newbies, but there is possibility that a newbie can lend to people in need. If this request is granted, this kind of people will be affected.

The second thing is that scam is not moderated. This can make admin and moderators to neglect this request.

I understand if the moderators don't want to delete the lending post in order to become an evidence if the user ever ask for a loan, but it doesn't make sense how the moderators didn't taking any action when someone ask a loan for 3 times with a different time frame, another solution is lock the topic and the thread will start to down.

Hello i need 0.03 btc loan
Need 0.04 btc
Hello as possible loan 0.03 btc

Asking member to buy a copper membership will make them to spend more money, it's not really good for the borrower.

I can't vote yes or no regarding this matter because I have never lend any single dollar to newbie account. I think we need to wait few veteran lenders if they have experienced to lend a money to newbie account and the newbie pay back the money based on the previous agreement.

• Borrowers
  
  • Should be restricted with some 'not too hard' conditions to be posted in Lending board, I agree with you.
  • Like those Rules for Serious Discussion and Ivory Tower]
  • Quote
    - You must be at least a Jr Member to post in Serious Discussion, and a Full Member to post in Ivory Tower.
    
• Lenders
  
  • Should not be restricted, even they are newbies

+1 for this point, I was thinking of a small case, if the newbie is someone who is willing to lend to make a profit, even though its rate is very low. But if he already has money to lend to others, he can totally afford to put down a small amount of money to become a co-member. So, it is very reasonable to limit newbies in participating in the loan table 

But technically I'm not sure the admin is willing to do it, this forum wasn't originally designed to restrict users to any boards, this requires him to change the code a bit and maybe it's more complicated than we thought 

I, too, am in support of this.

Tagging newbie accounts that are looking for a non-collateral loan is pointless because they can easily create another one and continue being a nuisance; restricting them would save DT and lenders a lot of stress.

Just only on the first page you'll see so many newbie with less than 30 posts already looking for loans, take this user for example, he/she has made up to 257 posts in the lending board ^{according to ninjastic.space} and the posting still continues even after been tagged he still insist on asking for his £500 loan.

+ 1, I support this proposal.
If all newbie members who apply for a loan end up with a negative trust, it is better to restrict posting to jrmember accounts, will greatly reduce spam.

If this is not possible, a warning message like what happens in the Investor-based games board will suffice.

I don't know how keen theymos would be to implement this suggestion, but it would be nice if newbies weren't allowed to post in the lending board.  Recently there's been a rash of trolling and spam in the lending board all because (at least one) newbies are refusing to accept reasonable advice or take "no" for an answer.  I'm of the opinion that it's all due to one troll with multiple alts, but that's irrelevant.

If someone registers an account just to request a no-collateral loan then he's not contributing to the forum, he's detracting from it.  If he has collateral, then he can afford to buy a copper membership and post a request for a collateralized loan, or send a specific lender a PM requesting a collateralized loan.  Or, god forbid, he can create an account to actually read, ask questions, learn, and contribute, which may cause him to earn a merit or two.  Then ask for a loan if needed.  

Not to mention all the ponzi scammers posing as "businesses" asking for stupid sums, promising stupider returns.

No lenders are giving out loans to these accounts, and I'm guessing most wouldn't miss them from spamming their threads.

Benefits:

• Less trolling and spam in the lending board
• Fewer repetitive posts
• No impact on legitimate lending operations
• Possible reduction in scams
• Instant reduction in feeble scam attempts