Topic: RingWallet - Wearable Hardware Wallet (Read 1228 times)

I hope this is true, but you should also add this information on Ringwallet website.
Remember that if you make changes to license with restrictions, it won't be open source anymore, even it has open source label on it.
That is for Ring wallet apps, but I was also asking about source code for Ring wallet firmware.

you should offer a heavily discounted ring to users on the thread here that have participated in exchange for their feedback upon using it. or maybe you've already gotten a group of crypto enthusiasts to test it out and give you their feedback but to me that would be an essential thing prior to going full launch.

Hey thanks for the message and sorry for the radio silence but we focused on trying to progress as much as possible in the last month. I also had surgery because my appendix broke so that sucked. Anyway, first off, to be clear, that's a discounted price (84), the non-discounted price would be 99 but yes that's still considerably cheaper than Tangem's Ring.

Now to answer the other questions. I'll be honest, Tangem Ring will probably be delivered before ours, but we're not that far away and have done a lot of progress. We actually received our first official production batch of 200 rings and 800 ace cards (4 ace cards for each ring). I am hoping that by the end of next week I can make and a video using the actual ring and app and then post it. These rings will also be sent to influencers / community members etc. Hopefully we can start shipping these rings to people in ±4-6 weeks and I also want to maybe have like 2-3 people from the forum to send them the ring and test it out. It would all be free but we need to find a way to select whom we'll send it to (like a raffle) and we would probably ask that whoever receives them makes a video of them using it or something.

Regarding source code - we have decided that we'll make the code open source, though this will be made upon publishing, meaning the order is 1. Publish the apps in app store / play store ; 2. Public the source code of the apps as open source (to be clear, if we do this before, someone can just submit it to apple before us, either way, ideally we want to submit the application for review and publication in the next month or so which means the code for the apps will be published as open source soon, let's say. within the next 2 months approximately). We will also publish the code of the ring firmware (which tangem hasn't published), but we will publish that when we get closer to shipping the rings for the exact same reason as above. I still don't know 100% what type of license we'll use but it will be an open-source one.

Regarding how the ring will be released and release date - we have given this some more thought after discussions with friends, partners and also here on bitcointalk, so we are now discussing again, whether to launch a Kickstarter/Indiegogo campaign or whether to just do a presale (like other wallets do). The thing with Kickstarter is we really love the concept, but to give an idea, this is the answer we got yesterday from one of the biggest kickstarter agencies in the space (who btw, was a crypto user and liked the idea), it's a link because I can't post pics for some reason, probably my rank: https://imgur.com/LnhoLHV

When asked why he says that because we did see some campaigns launched, he said this: https://imgur.com/9xtFBuc

Furthermore, if we do run the campaign through Kickstarter/Indiegogo, that means we either a) can't accept anyone paying in crypto which would be ironic or b) we have to run 2 campaigns simultaneously, one on the website for crypto payments and one on KS for card payments. So we're still undecided to be honest about how we'd launch. To give a proper date, however, the plan looks something like this:

Wait on all the final things we need to receive (such as boxes), publish the apps, send the initial rings to influencers and etc, publish the code, launch a campaign (whether on KS or our website). Realistically, I would say we can probably be ready to launch the campaign around Oct 1st, the campaign would last 30 days and would be limited to 10,000 or 20,000 pieces for preorders. We would then start shipping out the rings about 2 months later which would still be a bit later than Tangem because they start shipping around end of October. So yeah, I want to be honest there, realistically we'll probably ship after tangem.


Now, since I logged in to answer, let me answer the other questions as well.


Yeah honestly everybody recommended we do this and it was for multiple reasons. If for example we choose to run a Kickstarter or Indiegogo campaign, we wouldn't have been able to do that without a US entity (Romania is not accepted for eg). Furthermore, there's more limitations, for example if we want to get proper licensing for fiat on-ramps / off-ramps then having a US entity is simply a legal necessity because otherwise you can't get a license. Besides that there's also the usual stuff, such as the ones mentioned by Dave. It's also the fact that most VCs are US based and require US based companies and finally Romanian law has some limitations in various regards, for example the concept of an option pool literally does not exist as per Romanian law, which made having an option pool for future employees much harder, vesting itself isn't really regulated etc. I'm not sure if this is public but I can also share it if it's not, point is we made a 30% option pool on the US company to be able to reward early employees and future employees etc so that was something we really cared about among other things.


Maybe I'm wrong, but I've researched this and looked at both your link and multiple other links. You actually mentioned it as well but I think you misunderstand what foreign means: "Foreign means that this entity is domiciled in another jurisdiction but registered/qualified to do business in Delaware."

This means in simple words the following: if a company (llc/corporation) is registered in Delaware, it is a domestic company. If a company is registered in a different state other than Delaware (say California for example) then it is considered a foreign entity and must be registered as a foreign entity in order to conduct business in Delaware. The same applies vice-versa; a domestic Delaware company must register as a foreign entity to do business in California for example.

Foreign company does not mean it's registered by foreigners. Nor does domestic mean it's registered by US residents. Either one can be opened by either US residents or non-US residents and neither is illegal. Below, I am posting the process of registering as a foreign company:

Foreign Company Qualifying in Delaware: Cost Breakdown
IncNow can complete a foreign qualification for a non-Delaware company looking to do business in Delaware. Completing a foreign qualification in Delaware requires the following:

Obtain a Certificate of Existence (Good Standing) from the company’s home state,
Hire a Delaware Registered Agent, and
File a Qualification Certificate with the Delaware Secretary of State’s office.
Foreign Limited Liability Company – Delaware Foreign Qualification Cost

$200 State filing fee
$189 Agent processing fee
$99 Delaware Registered Agent fee
Certificate of Existence (Good Standing) from home state.
Foreign Corporation – Delaware Foreign Qualification Cost

$245 State filing fee
$189 Agent processing fee
$99 Delaware Registered Agent fee
Certificate of Existence (Good Standing) from home state.

They also explain what it means to be a foreign company: A “foreign company” refers to any company that conducts business outside of its home state of incorporation. For example, a Delaware LLC with an office and employees in California would be operating in California as a foreign business entity.

And here's the full link: https://www.incnow.com/foreign-qualification/#:~:text=What%20is%20a%20%E2%80%9CForeign%20Company,as%20a%20foreign%20business%20entity.

Lastly, as you can see from the above, it's not any more expensive to register as a foreign company either way, it's ±500$ to do so. But we don't have a company in a different state, so there was no way for us to register a foreign entity unless we first created an entity in a different state first, which would've made no sense. Also, it is perfectly normal and ok to have your legal entity in Delaware even if you're not based there, live there or work there. You have to follow some guidelines like having a registered agent who does live and do business in Delaware, which we do, but that's it. Tesla is still legally based in Delaware though they don't work or live there. Anyway, I hope that clears things.


Look, I understand why you say we should've had all details in writing before promoting a heavy discount to buy early and that's fair. It was definitely not the best approach. But let's be clear; we wanted to get feedback first, so naturally we didn't have everything set in stone because that was the entire point of getting feedback.  Initially I was dead-set on making the code source-available under a business license, and after reading the various feedback here and discussing this with more people it made me realise that was a mistake and not really in the spirit of what this is supposed to be, and so we decided to change that, so I'd say asking for feedback before we had everything done was definitely helpful to be honest.

Anyway, it's valid criticism that maybe we should've waited more before posting, but I also believe it's good to sometimes give people at least a little benefit of the doubt. We still haven't sold anything, the worst we did was advertise a waitlist for emails and a discount. Regardless, I think that when we post a video of the actual app and ring, followed by publishing the apps in the official stores and finally publishing the code will hopefully build some credibility and you as well as other people won't see this as vapourware anymore. I mean sure, we're not Ledger or some bigshot company, but at the very least it'll show that we built something; whether people like it or not that's a separate topic and something we'll eventually find out.

P.S. Here's some pictures of the first production order we received of 200 rings + 800 cards (basically 200 boxes, because each one has 4 cards for shamir):
1. https://imgur.com/WTtsEWy
2. https://imgur.com/WAkpIoo

I'll get back on the forum when the videos of the app + ring are ready and I can post them.
 

Is there any new updates for Ring wallet?
I saw waiting list is now opened for €84 that includes 4 cards and seed phrase backup.
This price is significantly lower than Tangem Ring wallet, but we still don't know anything about source code and release date.

Actually it's quite common. There are just things that are easier to do with a US based company if you are foreign. CC processing, dealing with taxes and such, insurance needs if any and so on.

Have dealt with a few foreign entities here in the US over the years I can how this might have helped them.

-Dave

I believe you.


You either were scammed, or you know as much about this as you did about Kickstarter.   Domestic is a lot cheaper, but obviously illegal.  


It makes him appear more trustworthy, like when he posted all private messages between us, redacting non-PII for show - political.  

His entire response chain has been reactive.   Hey, that's a good idea, or Yes, we will do that.    They should have had all the details in writing before they started promoting a heavy discount to purchase early.
 Hopefully my vigilance on this one will activate his alpha male brain and he'll develop these things just to prove me wrong!   I might even buy one!  

But right now, this is still vapourware waiting for funding and the owners have not been identified.

I guess it might have something to do with the fact that the FBI is going hard on Americans who want to do anything with crypto and he may be trying to play it safe with two business entities.

Although that only started 2 months ago to be fair, so it wouldn't make much sense to me.

I don't understand why did you have to complicate things with creating separate US entity for Ring wallet.
There are plenty of hardware wallet manufacturers that are based in Europe, some of them are Bitbox from Switzerland, Trezor from Czech Republic, Satochip from Belgium, and Ledger from France (via China).

I don't know how you drew that conclusion. I said you can check to see the shareholders are the same, which they are. It's allowed for non-US residents to make a US company, in fact quite a large number of US startups are made by non-US residents. You don't need to be physically living in Delaware to create a company there, you need a business address to receive packages, checks and correspondence. That doesn't mean anyone claims to live at the business address nor is it a necessity to live there.

In fact Stripe Atlas is specifically made for non-US residents to create US companies because they help you through the entire process of creating a company with everything that it entails. 

In any case, as I have promised, I shared with you the US entity and as mentioned before I will continue to share updates here as they happen.

So you told the US government you were physically living in Delaware?     This will not turn out well.

Hey, thanks for that, I appreciate, it genuinely sucks but hopefully it'll get better with time. And I'm sorry to hear about the loss of your cat. Hopefully they're both in a better place now.

We set up the company with Stripe Atlas, since it was one of the best options for non-US residents and was recommended by a founder friend. They have a lot of limitations though so yes now that the company is out we are working with a law firm to make the Romanian entity a subsidiary of the US entity. I just wanted to give an update on that since it was something I had previously promised to do. Atlas doesn't allow you to register a subsidiary upon incorporation, it also doesn't allow you to have more than 4 shareholders upon incorporation among other things so I had to create a large option pool and will now have to also allocate shares from the option pool to the other shareholders.

Anyway, I'm not sure if Delaware shows you this but if it does you should be able to see that shareholders are the same. I will also update after Romanian entity becomes a subsidiary.

In any case, I will come back and give updates about Ringwallet in this thread when new things happen. I'm now waiting on a larger batch of rings to arrive and then I think we'll do some videos using the app & ring and post them.

Hey, sorry to hear about your loss.  I recently lost a cat to cancer. 

I hate to tell you this, but you got scammed (common in Delaware).   The company you paid just set up a new local corporation.   It shares the same name as you, but it is not related to your home corporation in any way.   

you really do seem dedicated to great customer service and a great affordable product. i'm not so knowledgeable about all the competitors but i think you're going to have them beat on those two fronts for sure. good luck because i think you're going to have a winner here. 

Hey,

Sorry to hear hear that.

You can take as much time off for yourself as needed. Mental health comes first. The business isn't important by comparison.

Hi guys, sorry for being inactive for so long but I've had some of the worst 2 weeks of my life. I found out my dog has terminal cancer which made him slowly lose his ability to walk or basically do anything, so I had to take care of him and carry him outside so he could actually go to the bathroom. He was a heavy dog, around 110 pounds. Unfortunately, he has already died. He was 12 and we did try all possible treatments but it was just too advanced. He had had surgery a couple months back to remove a tumour and thought he was fine but unfortunately he wasn't. I buried him on Monday and today was pretty much the first day I felt capable of coming and replying here.

So first of all, since this has been a discussion for a long time on this thread, the US company is out, it's actually been out for the past 2 weeks since the 6th of June, I just didn't have the energy or mindspace to come and post here. I'm honestly not sure how to link it here but the company is called Ringwallet Inc; registered as a C-Corp, in Delaware, with file number 3858518. I think you can search for it on the department of state website of delaware. So Vod, the company is out, it's actually been out for 2 weeks since I said it would, the filings should prove this as well, I honestly just didn't have the energy for this. So I would appreciate if you can remove the trustpilot rating as you said you would.

Moving beyond that


For now the ring has no recognisable elements anywhere on the ring, theres's a simple pictogram logo on the inside of it with the initials "rw" and that's it. In the future we may consider offering customisations but for now at least that's not viable because it would be a manufacturing nightmare.


Thanks


They could, but they would need some sort of UI to interact with the ring. Assuming the company goes out of business and the app isn't in google store anymore then you'd need to download your own apk so you can have the UI and interact with it.


On that note, the rest of the team has had time to talk in the past 2 weeks and for now the consensus seems to be that we'll be publishing everything (the apps, the ring firmware etc) as open-source (not source-available). The exact time hasn't been decided but it will be sometime before delivery of the first batch of products.


Yeah so regarding the first thing, about the 25$ wallet, it is our wish to have a very cheap affordable wallet, but please be aware that this is probably at least 6+ months away as first we want to launch the ring and make sure everything works well before moving on to other things.

There is no battery in the ring, the battery life of 10 years on the website is moreso due to legal requirements, in the sense that we need to include a minimum life expectancy of the product if used in normal conditions (i.e. not setting it on fire, diving with it at 200m etc) so that's what 10 years means, the minimum lifespan of the product. In theory, the chip itself is graded for a minimum lifespan of 20 years and can last even longer than that but we wanted to be on the safe side.

Regarding software bugs, obviously we did our best to make sure there's no software bugs, but even if they are there should be maybe UI bugs or things like that, not bugs that can make you lose your funds. Of course it's a new product but as I said above, at the end of the day, we figured that if we publish everything open-source then 1. people can just check the code themselves and if they find anything wrong message us and 2. will hopefully help in building some reputation


So anyway guys, that's pretty much it for the above. In terms of other updates, we've had a physical event in Cluj sometime last week; I didn't attend because was taking care of my dog in his last days but Christian our CMO did attend. We are continuing our fundraising round and I am hopeful it will be done in <60 days from now and moving forward we will slowly start sending out free rings to influencers and etc. We are now waiting on a batch of rings to come and have reached the final design for the boxes and waiting for them as well. Other than that, we should be publishing the apps in the app stores in the coming weeks as well, waiting for final approvals for developer accounts.

Anyway, I'll try to keep all of you updated but now that I've posted this I'm probably going to take a few more days for myself until I come back and answer more questions just to get in a better state of mind after the entire thing because he's been my dog for 12 years and in all honesty I still kind of feel like shit. Hope the above answers all the questions. Cheers.

thanks for trying to bring an innovating bitcoin product to market.

there was hardware wallet that used to sell for $9.99. but it had to be plugged into a usb port.

Really cool concept but the potentials of attacks against people that are wearing these type of jewelry is definitely concerning, maybe if there's a way to customize the ring so it's totally not easily seen as something identifiable to be your product might be a big help, what I mean is that people should be able to add modifications to it that would make it look like any other ring on someone's finger, the lack of customization in my opinion is a security flaw because as what RickDecard, once it becomes a mainstream thing, scammers and people that have ill intentions will definitely try to do something about it once they recognize the ring.

Good luck finding anything to buy for $9.99, I think you are going to need time travel machine for that  
Meanwhile all you can buy is cheap Chinese watches on Aliexpress for that price, or maybe bunch of bananas , bread, paper and a pencil.
It's 2024.

Hey, first of all thanks for the kind words. Let me answer what you wrote:

1. Regarding currency, that's based on location, so if you're in US it's $ and if you're in Europe it's Euros. The price includes shipping and VAT as well so hence why it's a bit higher since of that price, depending on exact VAT (as it differs from country to country) of the 84 eur you get left with 66-71 eur and then you have to subtract shipping which is included as well which is ±8 eur on average for EU countries so about 58-63eur of which we then subtract product cost. Most providers show you a price and then on checkout they add VAT and shipping on top but we didn't really want to do that which is why we included it in price.
2. In general, I am aware that it is not the cheapest solution on the market. To be honest, since we're still a startup we don't have the same capacity of manufacturing as many pieces in a single batch and so we have a higher cost of product / item. Over time, as we grow and are able to manufacture larger and larger batches my hope is to be able to eventually reduce the price.

Now regarding the app disappearing from the app store because the company goes out of business, that's honestly a legitimate concern and it's one of the reasons why we're considering publishing everything open-source (including the apps), in which case even if the company goes out of business people would just be able to for example run their own apk and recover their wallets and move them somewhere else. Even if we end up deciding to publish it as source-available, you would still be able to do that since the company would have gone out of business in your example. With that said, we are gravitating more towards open-source at this moment either way and we're going to take a final decision in the coming weeks and announce it here.

Regarding the price range of the wallet you're looking for, I'm not sure if something like that exists at this moment. In the future we do have in plan of creating a more affordable option as well but in all honesty I don't think we could ever reach a $10 price range. If you include shipping then that's like 50-80% of the price, even if we disregard VAT and etc but even if you don't include shipping and VAT, I'm not sure if you can realistically manufacture a secure hardware wallet at that price. There may be a chance to do something in the $25-30 range if you go with something like a card since it's a simpler form factor but not sure if $10 is achievable in the very near future. Maybe years ahead as technology improves and production costs go down.

I'm afraid this Ring wallet suffers from a similar problem that other hardware wallets seem to suffer from. A high price.

Website says 84 Euros not US dollars.

I would never pay $90 for some brand new hardware wallet. First of all because I wouldn't even know if all the bugs had been ironed out of its software. No way I could trust it except with very small amounts most likely. Just how it is.

Nice concept though. Carrying an entire hardware wallet on your finger. Using your phone to do transactions and it doesn't even need a battery. Pretty cool.

Also, i can't trust a device where if their app disappeared from the "app store" because of going out of business their device becomes a brick. I've seen that happen with other types of hardware...you say its' open source or something. well, i dont know if that would mean anything...

but you and your partner seem to have the patience of a saint in dealing with some of the people in this thread. that's for sure!

just to give you an idea, i'm looking for a hardware wallet in the $9.99 price range.