Ripples a threat to bitcoin? | Bitcointalksearch.org

bitcoinBull

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Quote from: tokeweed on October 17, 2013, 08:15:15 PM

Quote from: afbitcoins on May 30, 2013, 06:55:45 PM

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

not at the rate bitcoin's going, no.

The good news is that it looks like the XPR price might be starting to decorrelate (unlike the March-June time period when the XRP increase was basically just riding BTC's coat-tail). BTC has gone up lately, but XRP has decreased.

tokeweed

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Quote from: afbitcoins on May 30, 2013, 06:55:45 PM

I say Ripples will try and eat bitcoins liver but what do you think

not at the rate bitcoin's going, no.

afbitcoins

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Quote from: OnkelPaul on October 10, 2013, 07:28:00 AM

Quote from: afbitcoins on October 10, 2013, 07:05:31 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 10, 2013, 06:50:20 AM

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

You don't know very far.
Of course you can create new ripple accounts, just like you can create new addresses in your wallet or entirely new wallets with bitcoin clients.
There are some differences in handling which make multiple addresses in bitcoin much easier to generate (the bitcoin client supports it directly, while the standard ripple client only works well with just one account, and additional ripple accounts need to be funded just like the first one, so you should be careful to avoid linking the accounts through initial fund transfers).
The account keys are not created by RippleLabs, but are public/private key pairs generated by the client (and if you don't trust the Javascript client on the ripple.com website, you can download it and run it from your own server or even locally).

Onkel Paul

Thanks ripple fans, just making sure I understand.

OnkelPaul

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Quote from: afbitcoins on October 10, 2013, 07:05:31 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 10, 2013, 06:50:20 AM

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

You don't know very far.
Of course you can create new ripple accounts, just like you can create new addresses in your wallet or entirely new wallets with bitcoin clients.
There are some differences in handling which make multiple addresses in bitcoin much easier to generate (the bitcoin client supports it directly, while the standard ripple client only works well with just one account, and additional ripple accounts need to be funded just like the first one, so you should be careful to avoid linking the accounts through initial fund transfers).
The account keys are not created by RippleLabs, but are public/private key pairs generated by the client (and if you don't trust the Javascript client on the ripple.com website, you can download it and run it from your own server or even locally).

Onkel Paul

ElectricMucus

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Quote from: afbitcoins on October 10, 2013, 07:05:31 AM

Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 10, 2013, 06:50:20 AM

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

The ripple ledger doesn't store names. The people I trust would know my name, they would have to ask them.
And since the govt doesn't know the names of the people I trust either, I can't see how that would be accomplished.

It's more likely that the goverment gets out your bitcoin addresses from mtgox...verification duh.

afbitcoins

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Quote from: ElectricMucus on October 10, 2013, 06:50:20 AM

RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

As far as I know you are stuck with the key that RippleLabs give you, so if the ledger is transparent all your transactions are traceable to your ripple account. Correct me if I'm wrong. Wouldn't be that hard to link an account to a person if that person starts using ripple payment network for many transactions.

ElectricMucus

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RippleLabs doesn't even know my name, how are they supposed to give anything to the Gov?

afbitcoins

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Quote from: afbitcoins on October 09, 2013, 03:53:17 AM

Bitcoinbull, I think I need to digest the implications of transparent ledger in ripple. How does that affect privacy? Is that not a way for central authorities to know everything about everyone?

With bitcoins as I understand it, anonymity is possible if you take correct precautions. What if RippleLabs give away your ripple addresses to govt for example ?

Thanks for your posts (and to zachcope too)

I'll take the lack of response from Ripple fans to infer that using Ripple cannot be done with any privacy

Another nail in the Ripples coffin Cool

afbitcoins

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Bitcoinbull, I think I need to digest the implications of transparent ledger in ripple. How does that affect privacy? Is that not a way for central authorities to know everything about everyone?

With bitcoins as I understand it, anonymity is possible if you take correct precautions. What if RippleLabs give away your ripple addresses to govt for example ?

On a different note, those worthless blips on the blockchain can achieve value without any interface to the legacy banking networks. It would require faith in people that bitcoins are useful medium of exchange for payment of work and goods. Conversely the blips on the banking network could end up with no value too in a hyper inflation for example. The value comes from people's faith primarily.

Thanks for your posts (and to zachcope too)

zachcope

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Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 09, 2013, 12:00:30 AM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 03:58:08 PM

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

The IOU system in ripple is very much a dramatic change. It decentralizes IOUs in the same way that bitcoin decentralizes BTC. Do you know the total amount deposited at any given bank and the account numbers holding those bank deposits? On ripple you know, because its public knowledge in the ledger. You know the total capitalization of any particular gateway and you can see which ripple addresses hold how much of the IOUs from that gateway (eg current USD cap is $226k bitstamp IOUs and $81k snapswap IOUs). Just like everyone can see how many bitcoins are held at each bitcoin address, and add them all up to make sure they are less than 21 million. On ripple we can count the amount of XRP plus we can count the amount of exchange IOUs.

That makes ripple a threat to both the legacy banking system, and conventional bitcoin exchanges (which are just non-transparent interfaces to the legacy banking system).

Your analogy is fair as long we add that the stores are places where people can buy and sell bitcoins and everyone can see how many gift cards any particular store has in circulation.

Thanks for the explanation.
You've illustrated an advantage of a Ripple network over legacy systems far more eloquently than the preceding 2 posters.
Not enough to convince me that 'Ripple is a threat to Bitcoin' as per the OP but, as the cryptocurrency scene is moving quickly, our respective views will be probably be proved correct or incorrect sooner rather than later.

bitcoinBull

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Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 03:58:08 PM

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

The IOU system in ripple is very much a dramatic change. It decentralizes IOUs in the same way that bitcoin decentralizes BTC. Do you know the total amount deposited at any given bank and the account numbers holding those bank deposits? On ripple you know, because its public knowledge in the ledger. You know the total capitalization of any particular gateway and you can see which ripple addresses hold how much of the IOUs from that gateway (eg current USD cap is $226k bitstamp IOUs and $81k snapswap IOUs). Just like everyone can see how many bitcoins are held at each bitcoin address, and add them all up to make sure they are less than 21 million. On ripple we can count the amount of XRP plus we can count the amount of exchange IOUs.

That makes ripple a threat to both the legacy banking system, and conventional bitcoin exchanges (which are just non-transparent interfaces to the legacy banking system).

Your analogy is fair as long we add that the stores are places where people can buy and sell bitcoins and everyone can see how many gift cards any particular store has in circulation.

rampantparanoia

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Quote from: Gimmelfarb on October 08, 2013, 04:01:04 PM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 03:58:08 PM

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

seriously? where do you even come up with this stuff?

cocaine is a hell of a drug.

Gimmelfarb

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Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 03:58:08 PM

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

seriously? where do you even come up with this stuff?

zachcope

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Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 08, 2013, 10:00:48 AM

Quote from: afbitcoins on October 08, 2013, 09:38:23 AM

Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 08, 2013, 09:28:12 AM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 02:53:52 AM

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network (not counting exchanges as part of the network) has trust built into it.

The "bitcoin network" excluding exchanges? Then all you'd have is a blockchain of worthless digital blips (you know that localBitcoins exchangers rely on online exchanges, it is not an exclusive network).

It would be equivalent to a ripple ledger of nothing but XRP - there is no trust involved in holding XRPs. It is only if you want to hold gateway IOUs that you have to grant a trust line.

Quote from: afbitcoins on October 08, 2013, 09:46:36 AM

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

Right, users don't trust that MtGox can process USD withdrawals (aka redemption of USD IOUs). You can still initiate a withdrawal, but there's little trust that it will be processed any time soon. So it really is a trust thing, and it is not just semantics.

You need to decide what is good about ripple.
The xrp ripple ledger fails against bitcoin in terms of security, decentralisation and ease of access to the network.
The IOU system does not represent a dramatic change from the legacy system, and is not enough to threaten bitcoin. In fact the need for trusted gateways and ious will threaten the xrp itself.

The analogy would be:
Bitcoin = gold coins
Xrp = £100 bills
Ripple IOU s = gift cards for a particular store

Gold coins will store value > fiat notes and both are infinitely more useful than a store specific gift card

bitcoinBull

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Quote from: afbitcoins on October 08, 2013, 09:38:23 AM

Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 08, 2013, 09:28:12 AM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 02:53:52 AM

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network (not counting exchanges as part of the network) has trust built into it.

The "bitcoin network" excluding exchanges? Then all you'd have is a blockchain of worthless digital blips (you know that localBitcoins exchangers rely on online exchanges, it is not an exclusive network).

It would be equivalent to a ripple ledger of nothing but XRP - there is no trust involved in holding XRPs. It is only if you want to hold gateway IOUs that you have to grant a trust line.

Quote from: afbitcoins on October 08, 2013, 09:46:36 AM

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

Right, users don't trust that MtGox can process USD withdrawals (aka redemption of USD IOUs). You can still initiate a withdrawal, but there's little trust that it will be processed any time soon. So it really is a trust thing, and it is not just semantics.

afbitcoins

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Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 08, 2013, 09:28:12 AM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 02:53:52 AM

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

The price difference isn't really a trust thing, it's come about because MtGox isn't able to let users withdraw $US, I've written about this here http://afbitcoins.wordpress.com/2013/10/01/mtgox-price/

afbitcoins

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Quote from: bitcoinBull on October 08, 2013, 09:28:12 AM

Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 02:53:52 AM

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

Good grief, here we are again with bitcoins are IOU's (on exchanges). That point has been agreed already. What other arguments do ripple fans have ?

Thanks to this and similar threads I feel like I am much better informed about ripple, however my initial distrust remains. The entire ripple network depends on trust. The entire bitcoin network has trust built into it.

edit: bitcoin exchanges are not part of the bitcoin network. With ripples, gateways are a critical part of the network. As I've said before, bitcion exchanges are NOT the same as gateways! Bitcoins could function without any bitcoin exchanges.

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Quote from: zachcope on October 08, 2013, 02:53:52 AM

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

If that were true, then the price would be the same on both mtgox and bitstamp. But the price is different, because the value of those exchanges' IOUs are different, because there's a different level of trust in the ability to redeem those IOUs.

Clearly the value of bitcoin is dependent on where you exchange it. And exchanges issue IOUs, abide by regulations, and are priced based on degree of trust. A bitcoin not backed by trust and IOUs only exists in a world without bitcoin exchanges. That was the world in 2009 and first half of 2010, when the closest thing bitcoins had to a price was maybe 96,000 BTC for a pizza.

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Quote from: Gimmelfarb on October 07, 2013, 06:47:54 PM

Quote from: zachcope on October 07, 2013, 04:12:31 AM

So do you see that Ripple doesn't transfer currencies, only debt?

If you wish to transfer a currency I suggest using a currency that is suitable for this, without the need for any trust, such as Bitcoin BTC.

this is semantics. with ripple, yes, you are transferring debt. and that debt, based on the issuer, has value. given liquidity, there is indeed much value in being able to send and receive in different currencies.

This is NOT semantics.
People are losing their livelihood, their pensions and their wealth due to debt based banking systems. Developing countries are crippled by hyperinflation, leading to poverty and, in some areas, civil war and religious conflict. Bright minds are devoting their lives to working in the legacy debt based banking systems when they could be creating real wealth through advances in agriculture, engineering, medicine etc. Ex pats are unable to send money to their families in Africa, money that would allow the poor to make real investment and spending decisions and plan for the future. The lie of extensive fractional reserve banking only works when there are no other options, but fails when people jump off the hamster wheel and desert the banks and currencies altogether.

Debt based banking rapidly moves towards centralisation, regulation and lack of innovation, as it must as users of these services need their IOUs backed by central government. The alternative is an army of loan sharks.

Bitcoin IS different. The promise and the payment is a real exchange of value that is NOT dependent on regulations, IOUs or trust.

Bitcoin is the Ocean rising up as a Tsunami to the legacy banking system.
Ripple is a water pistol.

Gimmelfarb

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Quote from: zachcope on October 07, 2013, 04:12:31 AM

So do you see that Ripple doesn't transfer currencies, only debt?

If you wish to transfer a currency I suggest using a currency that is suitable for this, without the need for any trust, such as Bitcoin BTC.

this is semantics. with ripple, yes, you are transferring debt. and that debt, based on the issuer, has value. given liquidity, there is indeed much value in being able to send and receive in different currencies.

Topic: Ripples a threat to bitcoin? (Read 12820 times)